Okay, it sounds to me like you're on the right track with your goals. AND, I like how you're trying to be sensitive to your son and his need for independence at the moment. Keep looking for small opportunities to deposit into his emotional bank account also. I'm finding that consistency has to be all around - not only with spouse but with kids, family of origin, work and friends. It's a sustainable life-style you're after here.<P>Well, that's all nicely said but with your spouse's up and down behavior, it's hard not to react based on her mood. I KNOW, been there many times. But, pray consistently Psalm 51... LORD give ME a steadfast spirit within me. Ask HIM to be the unchangeable force that keeps your innerds quiet when all hell is breaking loose with the mood swings. <P>Interesting insight about her manifesting your LBing behavior for the past few years... not a fun place to be on the receiving side of it is it now? I sometimes think the same with my H... and it truly makes me empathize... how could I be like that? No wonder he wants out! So do I!<P>Anyway... I'm reading about the child negotiations and frustrations between your spouse and kids and really am fearful for my future. It's just a snapshot of what life might be like for me in a few months... Continue to keep us posted.<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

She came by to get the kids, and I was mowing the lawn. They packed the car, and she finally walked up to me. I finished mowing for another three minutes, and she said, 'What time do you want them home tomorrow?' I said, 'Why don't you keep them until Wednesday?'. She asked if they could stop by, and get clothes, etc. tomorrow. I said yes. That was it. She called a little while ago, and asked Aaron to come out later. He said he'd have to ride there with his girlfriend because, 'It sounds like she's already started drinking.' It's like some sort of magical paradise life.

Oh, ouch... sorry. Seems that you are so helpless in this situation with her... just keep trying to work on you and who God wanted YOU to be... don't lose sight of those excellent goals!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Yes, but its no longer an issue of being helpless, that's too simplistic. No, it is her still trying to find the rail, and me keeping my absolute devastation over it to myself. It does have an encouraging aspect in that the further she explores this, the better the rebound potential once she finds it. The only downsides/questions are:<BR> 1. She might not ever find that rail.<BR> 2. What she might do in looking for it.<BR> 3. How much of it can I withstand?<BR> 4. My ability to improve all of our lives in the midst of it all.<BR> 5. How it affects {everyone involved}, and how to fix the damage it causes.<P>I tried to tell her that a divorce wouldn't fix things, and it would cause more trouble than it was worth, but I think that anything I said in the last {who the hell knows} has fallen on more than deaf ears, it has actually transformed her whole persona. She has taken on the anti-Mike mindset. Its weird, because the last time she said she didn't want a divorce (some 6 weeks ago, mind you) she said, 'I'm not anti-you, I'm anti-relationships.' Like I said earlier, I tire of statements like that. How many Bud Lights did that little bit of doublespeak take to arrive at?<P>I hear your admonition to concentrate on me, that is one of the reasons I told her to keep the kids until Wednesday. I have no car right now, and lots of stuff to do, and I am hurting like a kicked dog right now. Besides, she has not been responsible to them lately, either, and Sam really wants some time from her, so do the other three.<P>Thank you for continuing to post, its hard for me to do this, and have people with no idea of what is going on tell me what I should do/feel about it. I have so much to deal with these days, and so little available to work with.<P>I continue to pray for God's Grace for all of us. Take care.

Hi...<P>How old is Sam? <P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The only downsides/questions are:<BR>1. She might not ever find that rail.<BR>2. What she might do in looking for it.<BR>3. How much of it can I withstand?<BR>4. My ability to improve all of our lives in the midst of it all.<BR>5. How it affects {everyone involved}, and how to fix the damage it causes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your analysis skills are spot on. There are several items in this list that you can do nothing about - including how much you can withstand. Again, this has to do with what you're doing about yourself... and more importantly how you're cultivating your ability to love in the face of perseverence. You can't do this yourself... you know this. So, focus on the Lord and how HE can sustain you during these MOST turbulent times. Nevermind that the divorce has happened... keep your eyes on the eternal perspective and the fact that you will be connected to her the rest of your life b/c of your children. <P>Remember that you can't change her, nor should you try. You can observe the destructive behavior in her choices and you can try to do damage control with the kids... but ultimately you are not responsible for her relationship to them. You can try to facilitate honoring between the two by not allowing yourself or them to talk negatively about her in your presence... continue to try and show unity and look for shreds of positives you can cling to. Your wife is on her own journey - one that God can be with her on if she chooses... you can't control it.<P>So, try and relax... you'll have to learn to stand in your pain, not run from it or wallow in it, which may come very naturally. Take the high road and allow the Lord to heal your heart my friend.<P>Take care!<BR><P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Thanks. Things just got worse again. I had a rather heated discussion with Aaron(17), which did end good, but she is now seeing a (former) friend of mine, and the kids were there, Aaron noticed it. Not even a week! I HATE THIS...EVERY MOMENT OF IT, it just keeps getting worse, and I am unable to move forward now. She knows this, and is just killing me at every opportunity.<P>I have difficulty in having faith in God. Is this, or is it not His plan? Must I suffer EVERY ill in order to go on? Why can't I be allowed to fix this? Why must the childred auffer? ****, she's here. Samuel is 6. Gotta go.

Hi... gosh, how did your day go. Man, what a blow... it sounds like it's going to get worse before better. So, prepare your heart like those who live in Miami prepare their beach houses before a hurricane. You must shield yourself from being manipulated by her motivations, actions and behaviors. You have GOT to keep you eyes up and IN THE WORD of God. I'm serious man... you need to be reading the Bible daily... Jesus is the only one who can enable you to cope with the pain. You've got to trust and believe that.<P>Hang in there... it's not going to be easy. Perseverence... Protect your kids and your heart. Remember as Christ walked up the via dolorosa how he was despised, wounded, whipped, spit on and scarred... and YET he said, <I>Father forgive them for they know NOT what they do...</I>. Sound familiar...? Does your W know? NO so please don't expect her to... just trust in what Jesus did there on the cross for you and pass that love/gratefulness on to those closest to you.<P>I'm sorry if I'm preaching here but the closer it gets to pain the preachier I get b/c I know that's the only way to make it...<P>Will check in tomorrow...'nite!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Hi w_f_h,<P>You are one person that I will follow regardless of whether I ever post another topic or not.<P>I am in awe of you, I guess!<P>Your goals are admirable, and your faith that your marriage will be restored, despite some obvious hurdles, is wonderful. I know you must be really, really hurting right now, and for that I am sorry.<P>Take good care of yourself... you need to be healthy and strong to fight through this.<P><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Okay, I'm off to Lowe's for 3/4" exterior grade plywood....<BR>Yes, things are pretty ugly right now, but every day gives an opportunity to make things better. /thank you both for your insight, and support. I will post later.

Okay, I'm at a loss here, and need some input. My ex wife still lives a block away, and she comes here every few days because of the kids. She won't talk much with me, and when she does, its to break agreements, or criticize me, or otherwise twist the knife. For example, today she was making plans with the kids (mine until Sunday), and I said that she needed to discuss that with me. She said (standard, unacceptable response) she assumed they would talk with me about it. I do not want to allow her to use them in this fashion anymore, so she came back to my room (last week, it was her room), and asked me if I was 'getting fond' of her lamp. Said lamp was bought months ago, and paid for by me, but she can have it, that's not the point. I took it to her car, and told her that she needed to get the rest of her things out, too. I am not always able to tolerate the LBs, should I just let it ALL slide? (Minus the kids, I mean...I can't do that at any price.) Does anyone have a clue why she is stepping up her campaign against me? I am not a bad person, there was never any physical abuse, or anything like that. What is going on inside her mind? It is really hurting me, and I need to know what the motivation is, I need some answers here. I have a theory about it, but it seems to be my denial, or wishful thinking, but she said less than two months ago she didn't want a divorce, and then all of the sudden she lies to EVERYBODY, including God, and we are divorced, but she is still twisting that damned knife, and she lied about taking her maiden name back. She is going to start seeing a former friend of mine, (Actually already has.) and my financial situation continues to deteriorate. There is just so much BS right now, I can't think straight on it. I want her back, but not the way she is now. I sense that she is uncomfortable about something, but it does not seem to be the divorce. I am so confused right now, I don't know what to do to keep something, anything alive here. Any advice?

See if you can find a copy of Madeline Bennett's book "Sudden Endings: Wife Rejection in Happy Marriages". It's out of print, but my local library had it. The book is not without its flaws (for one thing, the author seems to think that it's rare for a woman to reject her husband in this way; the "wife rejection" in the title refers to husbands who suddenly leave their wives and attack them ruthlessly), but this was the book that put me on the road to understanding what had happened to my wife.<P>There are a couple of things that could be going on with your wife. Borrowing from Bennett's ideas, if your wife has struggled with negative feelings about herself, these feelings may have become too much for her to handle. Instead of "owning" them, she has "projected" them onto you. As the closest person to hand, she has transformed you into a repository for these negative feelings about herself (thus ceasing to see you as an independent entity in her own mind). Now to reject her negative feelings, all she has to do is reject you. However, since her feelings can't <I>really</I> be gotten rid of in this way, just divorcing you and moving on with her life is not an option. She can't do that. She has to maintain a connection with you in order to continue to reject you, as the stand-in for her feelings.<P>Another possibility is that your wife may be feeling guilty about deserting you, and in order to justify her actions to herself she needs to make <I>you</I> into the villain. When our actions conflict with our beliefs, our beliefs often change to validate our behavior. This is called "dissonance". The more your wife focuses on your wickedness (real or imagined), the better she is able to feel about herself and her actions. By attacking you, she is able to avoid attacking herself.<BR>

1 Peter 5:10 <P>"And the God of all grace, who called you to his eternal glory in Christ, after you have suffered a little while, will himself restore you and make you strong, firm and steadfast."<P>I do not know if you are a very religious or spiritual person, but this particular verse meant a lot to me. I am Jewish, but that doesn't mean that occasionally the New Testament doesn't have a good message! <P>Anyway, what I saw when I read this verse is that God called each one of us. He wants us and He desires us, and considering the fact that we've been rejected and dumped, feeling wanted is really comforting. <P>HOWEVER, we have to suffer a while first, and God is funny. "A while" to Him does not mean the minute or two that it means when we say it. It may be "a while", so get ready! <P>That also means to me that there will eventually be an end to it, and that He has a plan about how long it will last, what you need to learn from your suffering, and why. It's not just meaningless, hopeless suffering, but rather in the end, it will make you a wiser, more mature, more spiritual person. <P>I also see that GOD HIMSELF will restore. After our suffering, and after we have learned the lesson we need to learn, God will not send someone else to help us out--He will come HIMSELF! We will have the chance to have God Himself minister to us.<P>Last but not least, He will restore us and make us strong, firm and steadfast. Do you remember how you felt before this whole thing started? You felt secure and strong and solid, but now you feel like the rug has been pulled out from under you and nothing that you THOUGHT you could depend on is reliable. You have to suffer a while first. But after you have suffered, and after you have learned your life lesson, and after you have become wiser and become the person that you have the capability to be, THEN God Himself will give you back your strength, and your security and your trust--you will feel firm and reliable again. <P>So, hang in there, Mike. The way she is behaving just sucks, and there is no other way around that--she is behaving badly. But since the divorce IS final and since she IS seeing a buddy of yours, it's no longer about her. Now it is about you. Become the man that you were meant to be, Mike, and keep your focus on being the very best man, father and eventually husband that you can. What are your life-lessons? <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

That hit the spot...My exwife is my librarian, go figure. Anyway, I got the time frame from reading Hosea, and Job, you know...the books WE ALL like! I am Catholic (BY MARRIAGE!), but I assume that since I am not married, you will forgive me.<P>I know these things. I've not made much progress in getting my act together, I'm afraid. I want to restore the marriage at some point, but I am swimming in financial ruin, and my oldest and youngest sons are having problems. I am about past Job's second speech...sometimes I feel that I am still in the first. (Where he is questioning whether he should be here.) It is a very full plate, with a lot of side dishes I haven't mentioned.<P>What I need to do is develop a relationship with her that:<BR> 1. Does not let things deteriorate further.<BR> 2. Does not allow her to manipulate the situation.<BR> 3. I can live with.<P>My natural inclination is to be 'contrary' with her, like she is to me. I also want to hold her, and talk to her. I want to have us help each other. What I have done is to be firm, and a little, well, not as nice as I want to be, but I have let her do many things that were not 'fair', and she knows this. It's just that she keeps on pushing.<BR>

I don't know what the 'life lessons' are, except:<BR> I don't respect myself, and people don't respect that.<BR> It can be about me sometimes.<BR>I get walked on and exploited all the time, and there is no end in sight. I am a bright, capable man...who is, incidentally, a complete failure right now. I can't take anything from it all, except that I am responsible for my own happiness, and I need to make my own money in my own way.

If you want to save yourself a lot of stress, forget about what's "fair". And remember that regardless of whether your wife is <I>trying</I> to manipulate you or the situation, accommodating her is nevertheless <I>your</I> decision. There is no shame in playing along if that's what you believe is the right thing to do.<P>When I married my wife, I declared that all I had was hers; and throughout our marriage, I did my best to give her everything she wanted. Now my wife is refusing to accept from me what I would give her freely, choosing instead to use the courts to extort from me what I would have given her anyway. Is any of this "fair"? No. But so what? If I don't begrudge her anything I have, why should I care how she gets it?<P>I don't feel like a doormat. I don't believe I'm <I>acting</I> like a doormat. The fact is, it's unlikely that I can sustain spousal support at the level the courts (temporarily) awarded without losing my home, and so I have contested the award. I did not promise to give my wife what I do not have, and in my view my house is <I>our</I> house. There is a stewardship issue here. I hold this house in trust <I>for us</I>, and I will not simply throw things away at my wife's whim. Fortunately, since I learned recently that my wife (or her lawyer) lied about her income at the original hearing in which support was awarded, I am much more optimistic than I was previously.<P>The bottom line is that if you can stay secure in yourself and in your love for your wife, there will be no need for your pride to get in the way. Your wife's manipulation and acting out will still hurt, but you will not perceive your integrity as being at risk.<BR>

You are a very consistent poster, and that one reached out to me in a way I find impossible to describe. Minus the messiness of your situation (I have my own 'messiness'), I relate to your position. Thank you for putting it so succinctly...I do, in fact, feel that way. I have been EXTREMELY accomodating (spelled in some places 'doormat') for a specific reason:<BR> I don't see a need to be otherwise.<BR>I hope that my ex-wife will return to our marriage, but not like she is now, OBVIOUSLY.<BR>It seems as though you are also on the receiving end of the dissonance, too, n'est ce pas? How do you react/not react to her when she is being unreasonable, and disrespectful, and demanding...and you know? I have asked her to leave three times in the last week for that.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by waiting_for_her:<BR><B>It seems as though you are also on the receiving end of the dissonance, too, n'est ce pas? How do you react/not react to her when she is being unreasonable, and disrespectful, and demanding...and you know? I have asked her to leave three times in the last week for that.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, it's easy not to react now, since we have had no direct contact for more than ten months. And up until several months before my wife left me, I reacted with depression, withdrawal, anger, and/or defensiveness.<P>But for the several months in between, the answer for me was to listen with empathy. I would try very hard to understand what my wife was feeling, recognizing that her feelings and accusations didn't define my reality.<BR>

Okay, so we are on the same page. Good. I'm going to find that book. I also ordered the Restore Ministries books, "How God Will Restore Your Marriage", and "A Wise Man Builds His House On A Rock". They are at: <A HREF="http://www.restorem.org," TARGET=_blank>http://www.restorem.org,</A> if you are interested. There are men's and women's resources there. I should be getting them within a week. I'll start a new thread with what I find.<BR>Take care, God Bless, hang in there, and all of that. I feel for you, and you are in many ways ahead of me in your 'struggle'.<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited May 31, 2001).]

I'm pullin' for ya, w_f_h <P>Just want you to know that I am still here reading, and following your progress...<P>(((((w_f_h and w_f_h's (ex)wife)))))

Today, my ex-wife was supposed to move 'her stuff' out...basically, she is going to gut the house, minus my 'man things'. I took two of the children out for the day, and she did not move anything. She called at 7:30 to say she wasn't going to make it, and that didn't go very well. She lives one block away, and I saw that she has several guests tonight...at 3:00AM. This just keeps getting more difficult for me, and I'm not sure that I understand it all of the time. I have yet to discover what I am doing to rate this. Honestly, it is too much sometimes! Tomorrow, I have to go to my nieces' graduation open house, and I'm sure I will have to 'deal with' her, and the ex in laws. I am not looking forward to that! Anyway, just a little venting session, and small pity party. This just stinks!<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited June 03, 2001).]