From Courage to Change, page 244.<P>I have often tried to change other people to suit my own desires. I knew what I needed and if those needs weren't met, the problem was with the other person. I was looking for someone who would always be there for me but would not impose on me very much. Looking back, it's almost as if I were looking for a pet rather than a human being. Naturally, this outlook put a strain on my relationships.<P>In Al-Anon I have learned there is a difference between what I expect and what I need. No one can be all things to me.<P>Once again I'm faced with examining my own attitudes. What do I expect, and is that expectation realistic? Do I respect other people's individuality -- or only the parts that suit my fancy? Do I appreciate what I do receive?<P>Trying to change other people is futile, foolish and certainly not loving. Today, instead of assuming that they are the problem, I can look at myself to see what needs changing within. <P>"The beginning of love is to let those we love be perfectly themselves and not twist them to fit our own image."<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I><p>[This message has been edited by BrambleRose (edited May 21, 2001).]

And add to that from the book I've been reading and re-reading for the past 8 months: Henri Nouwen <I>The Inner Voice of Love: A journey through anguish to freedom</I> pg. 47 "Stay with your pain"<P>... "When you experience the deep pain of loneliness, it is understandable that your thoughts go out to the person who was able to take that loneliness away, even if only for a moment. When, underneath all that praise and acclaim, you feel a huge absence that makes everything look useless, your heart wants only one thing - to be with the person who once was able to dispel these frightful emotions. But it is the absence itself, the emptiness within you, that you have to be willing to experience, not the one who could temporarily take it away."<P> "It is not easy to stay with your loneliness. The temptation is to nurse your pain or to escape into fantasies about people who will take it away. But when you can acknowledge your loneliness in a safe, contained place, you make your pain available for God's healing."<P><BR>So, this has been such an important book for me in so many ways... each chapter is a scriptural imperative written for only himself but far-reaching to nearly all of mankind, I would say. I relate to what you're saying above there BrRs and yet when I can't get someone to suit me I run to someone else...(most recently to old boyfriends who one time professed their love to me) that has been a destructive pattern all my adult (maybe since adolescence) life.<P>So, as I read all of what has been going on with TheStudent, Dara and others... I'm reminded that NO ONE can take away the pain that I'm meant to go through... that God is trying to work out in me. It's like spiritual open-heart surgery and I don't like it and yet I love it because I will be a stronger and more healthy person in the end.<P>Cheers!<BR>Nicole<P><P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Br,<P>thank you. As soon as I can afford to I will buy it. <P>Funny how it relates to Al-Anon. Was that the books quote, or did you tie that in?<P>I've recently come across, or rather thrown into some family problems. And they all deal directly with addiction.<P>I'm at the point now where I just want to give up. No, I dont mean life altering things. But the I try, the more complicated things get.<P>I snooped tonight in H backpack..<P>Almost hoping to find evidence of OW. To have a legitimate to call it quits. <P>I dont understand these feelings at all. I want some sense of normalcy and simplcity in my life. To be stable.<P>I want to run, far away and escape this!!<P>Its not despair/depression.<P>I dont know what it is. <P>Probably wont sleep tonight. Not after today, and coming home to being called a bit**.<P>Please read my follow up in my last thread. It explains what going on.<BR>It speaks to you. <P>I am really hurting right now.<P>Dara<p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited May 22, 2001).]

that whole post was from one of our Al-Anon daily readers called Courage to Change.<P>I know what you are feeling. Your life has become unmanageable right? Rock bottom does that to you.<P>Time to do something different! <P>(((((((((((((Dara))))))))))))))

Bramblerose,<P>"But it is the absence itself, the emptiness within you, that you have to be willing to experience, not the one who could temporarily take it away."<P>This is exactly the reason why I've chosen to be celibate, at least for the forseeable future. I have forced myself to do this, not as punishment (like so many believe) but to give up expectations. <P>"It is not easy to stay with your loneliness. The temptation is to nurse your pain or to escape into fantasies about people who will take it away. But when you can acknowledge your loneliness in a safe, contained place, you make your pain available for God's healing."<P>yes. this is very true. <BR>

TS - I definitely thought of you when reading this the other night. You've made some interesting and tough choices ... one's that I've been forced to examine and reckon with in terms of dealing with other people to suit my own inner needs. <P>I think that's why sometimes it's hard to deal with you, to be honest. You're doing what I feel I need to do but DO NOT WANT TO! Man, I just need to grow up!<P>TS - have you been reading what's going on with Dara lately... Gosh, there is such pain in life. I can hardly stand it! What is one meant to do to enjoy peace and contentment after all!?! I think I know the answer ... but as I've stated before, it's so much easier to state the answer than to actually DO on a consistent basis. <P>g'night.<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Hi <B>Nicole</B> and <B>TheStudent</B>:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>"It is not easy to stay with your loneliness. The temptation is to nurse your pain or to escape into fantasies about people who will take it away. But when you can acknowledge your loneliness in a safe, contained place, you make your pain available for God's healing."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I like this, because it's exactly where I am at emotionally. I'm pretty much accepting (most days) of the end of my marriage. I'm also finding that I am doing just fine by myself. I am alone, and it's OK. I've found that I don't <B>need</B> to have someone in my life right now. And that is a good thing. I think if I were to rush out now looking for a new partner (nevermind that I am still married) that I would be simply covering up the hurts and the character defects that put me in this position in the first place. A man in my life might help to cover up the symptoms (the pain) of breakup and loneliness, but I wouldn't have a chance to grow and to become a better me.<P>I'm happy to have the time to heal, and to put my energy into me, rather than diverting it to someone else right now. Even casual dating, right now, would be a major distraction from the things about me that I need to work on.<P>I very well may choose to be alone for a very long time. At this point, my trust issues are so huge, I think I'd be destructive in a relationship anyway. And I'm not sure that I want a step-father entering into my kids lives. And I don't want to be a step-mom. I don't want to take my energies away from my own kids.<P>So that leaves me with MYSELF, and I better darn learn to like myself huh?

BrRs... I'm exactly with you. I'm trying to learn to find that peace with God - didn't you suggest someone go look at Isaiah 54 recently? Well, I checked it out too and find comfort that God is my H... I may be betrayed by others but not him.<P>BUT, keep in mind the spiritual imperative that Nouwen writes the next day:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><I>Do not hesitate to love and to love deeply. You might be afraid of the pain that deep love can cause. When those you love deeply reject you, leave you, or die, your heart will be broken. But that should not hold you back from loving deeply. The pain that comes from deep love [b]makes your love ever more fruitful[b]. It is like a plow that breaks the ground to allow the seed to take root and grow into a strong plant. Every time you experience the pain of rejection, absence, or death, you are faced with a choice. You can become bitter and decide NOT to love again, or you can stand straight in your pain and let the soil on which you stand become richer and more able to give life to new seeds.</I><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Wow... that slays me. Furthermore, he writes (pg. 64) <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><I>True love between two human beings puts you more in touch with your deepest self. It is a love in God. The pain you experience from the death or absence of the person you love, then, always calls you to a deeper knowledge of God's love. God's love is all the love you need, and it reveals to you the love of God in the other. This is deep speaking to deep, a mutuality in the heart of God, who embraces both of you.</I><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So, though I'm not looking for a new relationship with anyone except my H, I'm going back to my old relationships that were ended badly and seeking healing and an ending in some cases... I know that it could be playing with fire since I'm in the lonely emotional state I'm currently in... but part of me feels a responsibility to get closure here. Also, in one case, the person doesn't know the Lord. I feel I have an audience with him that not too many others have... when we talked about the Lord once, he wept. So, maybe I'm crazy here... but I feel that I should share or at least demonstrate God's love towards him. <P>I seek NOT any relationship with anyone and recognize the danger since there is romantic history from pre-marriage days. But, I've had issues from those relationships that have sprung up in my marriage and I need to face them once and for all!<P>Thoughts...? (scared actually to hear from you...)<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Bramblerose,<P>"I am alone, and it's OK. I've found that I don't need to have someone in my life right now."<P>Yes, you do need people in your life. We all need support from loving, caring people around us. You are not "alone". The idea that you are "alone" when you are not romantically involved with someone can be very damaging. To yourself and to another person as well. <P>I don't recommend celibacy to anyone, especially if they want to do it to run away from something. When I made this decision, I had a very specific goal in mind. For one thing, I work around all men and I am a distinct minority in my field (engineering). I don't have to "date" (at least the way most people date) in order to work out my issues. Besides, everyone knows how I feel about dating rituals in this country anyway. <P>Ovrcs,<BR>You posted something about not being afraid of loving, and loving deeply. In some ways, I agree with that. However, I get the distinct impression that this quote is directed only at romantic relationships. <P>Loving deeply does not mean throwing one's heart out there to be used and taken advantage of just so that one can prove to themselves that they are a loving person. It does not mean that "loving deeply" is only done in the context of a romantic relationship. In fact, I have often stated that "romantic" relationships--while fun and exciting--aren't really "love" at all. <P>There is also two phrases in the Bible...one talks about "casting pearls before swine". Another about the value of "protect your heart, for it is the wellspring of life"...something like that. <P>"but I feel that I should share or at least demonstrate God's love towards him."<BR>I'm not sure that this is something you should attempt in your (admittedly) weakened state. It sounds like you are trying to get some needs of yours filled and using ministering as an excuse. Be very, very sure of your motivations. I think this friend of yours might be better off directed towards someone else (a male minister, perhaps) for the time being.<BR>

<B>Nicole</B>,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Do not hesitate to love and to love deeply. You might be afraid of the pain that deep love can cause. When those you love deeply reject you, leave you, or die, your heart will be broken. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd have to read this in context. I think love is a decision, and not one that someone should make lightly. I do think it is foolish to throw your heart away to someone who is not capable of reciprocation. In terms of my situation now, well, my H and I have a long history and 3 children together. If he were willing to demonstrate a willingness to take responsiblity for his part in our marriage, I would probably risk giving my heart to him again - although I would be taking a very big risk. With a new person though, I don't think I'd be willing to take a real risk. If and when I look for soemone to share my life with intimately, you can be sure that I will be making that decision based on something more substantial than a gushy "in-love" feeling. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, though I'm not looking for a new relationship with anyone except my H, I'm going back to my old relationships that were ended badly and seeking healing and an ending in some cases... I know that it could be playing with fire since I'm in the lonely emotional state I'm currently in... but part of me feels a responsibility to get closure here. Also, in one case, the person doesn't know the Lord. I feel I have an audience with him that not too many others have... when we talked about the Lord once, he wept. So, maybe I'm crazy here... but I feel that I should share or at least demonstrate God's love towards him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Your H just left Nicole....no, I don't think it is wise at all for you to be seeking "closure" in any relationship but the one you have with your husband. I think you should perhaps examine your motives again. Loneliness and grief are very powerful emotions. Feeling rejected by your H is also very very powerful. You are still married, and you want to save your marriage.....right?<P>So why are you seeking out connections with men that you had romantic ties with once? God loves everyone - I am sure your friend will be given opportunities to find God without you at this time. <P>What do you mean by "responsiblity to get closure"? Why didn't you do that years ago before you got married? Why now? I think you know why, and yep, I'm gonna call you on it. <P>Perhaps it's time to seek out female companionship for awhile, until the raw pain and grief has had a chance to heal....<P><BR><B>TheStudent</B>:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Bramblerose,<BR>"I am alone, and it's OK. I've found that I don't need to have someone in my life right now."<P>Yes, you do need people in your life. We all need support from loving, caring people around us. You are not "alone". The idea that you are "alone" when you are not romantically involved with someone can be very damaging. To yourself and to another person as well. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, maybe I expressed myself badly. I only meant alone in the sense of a romantic pairing. I have many important people in my life, family and friends. I've even recently made some new ones! I don't consider myself alone at all, in an isolated sense. <P>I prefer to be alone romantically, because I am not in a spot where I am healed or ready. And thats just emotionally. Also being Catholic, I have no business looking for someone else, I'm still married!! I'm not running away from anything, I'm simply content with my status as "single" for the time being. I prefer to spend the time and energy that I would need for a romantic relationship on working on my own issues, and being the mother that I need to be to my kids.<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Ovrcs,<BR>You posted something about not being afraid of loving, and loving deeply. In some ways, I agree with that. However, I get the distinct impression that this quote is directed only at romantic relationships. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually no, this is Henri Nouwen who is a Catholic priest and he's talking sincerely about loving others purely with the love of God. I think I'M confusing it with romantic love... that's the problem. Now, your other point <B>TheStudent</B>...<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Loving deeply does not mean throwing one's heart out there to be used and taken advantage of just so that one can prove to themselves that they are a loving person. It does not mean that "loving deeply" is only done in the context of a romantic relationship. In fact, I have often stated that "romantic" relationships--while fun and exciting--aren't really "love" at all. <P>There is also two phrases in the Bible...one talks about "casting pearls before swine". Another about the value of "protect your heart, for it is the wellspring of life"...something like that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, this is true and bears some thinking... how do you love and yet draw the boundaries (pearls to swine)...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It sounds like you are trying to get some needs of yours filled and using ministering as an excuse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, this may be true... but trying to bring healing and closure onto something, is this so bad? YES, if I use the excuse of trying to minister... I agree I cannot be the one to do this. So forget it.<P>BrRs... you have called me on it. My H has left and yet you say why haven't I dealt with this relationship years ago... well, my H has asked the SAME question since our engagement. But, I didn't - I ran from it and tried the prohibition route of trying NOT to think about it. It didn't work. These issues aren't something that are new given my situation... but I feel the time is NOW to deal with them... as I stated in my first post I have to stand in my pain and face the fears... The bible talks about "If at all possible and is up to you, live at peace with one another..." it also talks about your brother/sister and if they have something against you, set the affair straight before comoing to the Lord's house (I'm paraphrasing but don't have time now to look it up...) So, my motive is to bring some peace and healing to the situation. I'm trying desparately NOT to have my emotional needs of being "loved" or "cared" about rear their ugly head... just trying to put it to rest... you'd think after 12 years it would just go away... but it hasn't. It's not like I have feelings for this person now... just trying to resolve old feelings. The timing sucks because of what my H and I are going through, but then again, part of what my H and I are going through may have something to do with this festering wound. So, I don't know what I'm trying to say except I want to bury old hurts and try to live at peace...<P>My H and I are getting along well... trying to make some decisions. He's still moving ahead with sep/dvc plans. The kids and I will be going to Chicago next week to look at housing opportunities... if it makes sense, then we'll move. Financially, I just don't know how I'm going to make it... but I'm willing to be willing to look at it. It's for the kids and frankly, I want to be near to my H. Yes, I want my marriage to work but as I've been in dialogue with Waiting For Her, I'm getting a bigger perspective on life than preventing divorce... my H said to me the other day that maybe our family could have more beautiful memories in the future... so maybe. If I look at the odds of relating after divorce, there's not much chance. Every situation is different and my commitment is to the man I married and to my family... it may look pretty different than the typical American family but as TheStudent pointed out... who says the American family has it all together - given the percentages<P>Ok, gotta run for now... please forgive these fragmented thoughts. I'll try to get it together for the next time I post... Later!<BR><P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>BrRs... you have called me on it. My H has left and yet you say why haven't I dealt with this relationship years ago... well, my H has asked the SAME question since our engagement. But, I didn't - I ran from it and tried the prohibition route of trying NOT to think about it. It didn't work. These issues aren't something that are new given my situation... but I feel the time is NOW to deal with them... as I stated in my first post I have to stand in my pain and face the fears... The bible talks about "If at all possible and is up to you, live at peace with one another..." it also talks about your brother/sister and if they have something against you, set the affair straight before comoing to the Lord's house (I'm paraphrasing but don't have time now to look it up...) So, my motive is to bring some peace and healing to the situation. I'm trying desparately NOT to have my emotional needs of being "loved" or "cared" about rear their ugly head... just trying to put it to rest... you'd think after 12 years it would just go away... but it hasn't. It's not like I have feelings for this person now... just trying to resolve old feelings. The timing sucks because of what my H and I are going through, but then again, part of what my H and I are going through may have something to do with this festering wound. So, I don't know what I'm trying to say except I want to bury old hurts and try to live at peace...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>IMHO - this is something that should be "put to rest" in the offices of a therapist, or spiritual director. NOT with the individual involved. At least not right now. You are not in a place emotionally or morally at that you should be making yourself vulnerable. Deal with these feelings and emotions with a therapist, and then at some later date AFTER this turbulent time with your H is resolved, revisit it with the other individual. <P>If it waited 12 years...it can wait a while longer - at least the confrontation can wait. It does sound like you are putting yourself out there to get some needs met. When we are in pain, reeling with grief and abandonment, we don't make the wisest decisions.

"Yes, this is true and bears some thinking... how do you love and yet draw the boundaries (pearls to swine)..."<P>Good question. I haven't figured out how to do that yet. I do have occasions that my judgement is put into question with family/friends though. The most important things I look for in seeking new friendships is their ability to <P>a) take responsibility for their behavior<BR>b) be honest about their motives/feelings<BR>c) be accountable (ie doing what they say they will do)<BR>d) observe how they treat others. For instance, I wouldn't form a friendship with a person who was having an affair or harms anything in their care, such as children or animals.<P>Those are the biggies for me. I do have friends that don't follow all of these all of the time, heck, noone is perfect. One thing I've been forced to do is to stop making excuses and rationalizing other people's behavior. Also, I make sure now that when I give something to someone it is 100% no-strings attached (as best as possible). Giving up expectations has helped me a great deal. <P>I also am forced to realize that I have personal limitations that make it difficult or even impossible to love some people as God intended, and attempting to do so with limited wisdom or patience is actually more harmful than helpful to them (and me too!!). It is in that spirit that I also recommended that you not minister to your ex-boyfriend at this time. I do trust that you have the best of intentions--but respectfully agree with Bramblerose that, for his sake and for yours, you'd be much better off seeing a therapist on your own to get closure. <P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>this is something that should be "put to rest" in the offices of a therapist, or spiritual director. NOT with the individual involved. At least not right now. You are not in a place emotionally or morally at that you should be making yourself vulnerable. Deal with these feelings and emotions with a therapist, and then at some later date AFTER this turbulent time with your H is resolved, revisit it with the other individual. <P>If it waited 12 years...it can wait a while longer - at least the confrontation can wait. It does sound like you are putting yourself out there to get some needs met. When we are in pain, reeling with grief and abandonment, we don't make the wisest decisions. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, I suppose you are right about waiting a little while longer. For some reason, I feel that an honest conversation discussing things would help diffuse the uncomfort of the situation. I have seen him now but he is guarding himself from me... wanted to be in a public place with lots of people. So, we couldn't have the conversation that I'd hoped we could have... bury the old hurts, say apologies, celebrate the friendship we once had and move on... maybe I'm too naive in this. No, I don't still have romantic feelings for him... but why all the lingering thoughts and other junk throughout all these years...? I suppose I should talk to my cslr about it. I began to last week considering the fact that knew I'd see him soon. Which brings me to another point... why do I feel the urgency to bring closure to this now? I've been here nearly six months and next week I'm off to Chicago to likely move there... <P>I don't know... maybe this is just another one of those areas where I need to grow up emotionally - like Bumperii suggested in my other post about dealing with anger.<P>Whatever... It's just I'm trying to seek to live at peace... if it's up to me. Maybe this one just isn't going to happen. AND, at the very least, I should NOT try to solve this now with all of the uncertainty of what I'm going through with my H.<P><B>TheStudent, you say...</B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I also am forced to realize that I have personal limitations that make it difficult or even impossible to love some people as God intended, and attempting to do so with limited wisdom or patience is actually more harmful than helpful to them (and me too!!). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Well, I guess this is where I'm at and in the spirit of what you say, shall I just accept that it will be impossible for me to live at peace with that person? It's just sad because I'd like to be friends and live recognizing that for one sphere/bubble in our life, we meant something to each other and accept that we've both made choices to move on with our lives... but I can do that for ME and not for him... AHA... maybe I'm waiting for him to be/act in a certain way but I am not in control of that. OH well... I feel a little funny sharing these thoughts with you all but hey, you've been so helpful in your thoughts as I navigate my way through this old festering wound (possibly a major factor in the issues I face in my marriage today). I've said it before, I feel like God is doing spiritual open-heart surgery on me and this is another clogged artery that needs to be cleaned out for a free-flowing fluid system...<P>Thx again for listening to my fearful heart on this...<P><BR>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once<p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited May 27, 2001).]

Ovrcs,<P>I don't think I have the answer for you. It is a tough situation. There was only one circumstance in my life where I felt deeply compelled to make amends. The main reason why I did so is because someone else had done that for me before and it helped my healing immensely. It can be a wonderful gift if done for the right reasons. <P>I don't get the impression that you did something terrible to this man and that you need to make amends (?). It sounds more like it was a relationship that didn't work out and you are sad that you lost a friendship. Perhaps mourning is more in order. Just my 0.02. <P>Even if you DID do something that you regret, I'd still not attempt making amends until you are absolutely certain what your intentions are and that you are strong enough to maintain your dignity and values. I don't think that time is now.

Hi TS... Yeah, I think I'm finally coming to that conclusion. Yet, I find it interesting my urgency in this... I waited subconsciously all this time until RIGHT before I leave the area, likely permanently. Oh well... the fact is that my timing is NOT right and I really need to examine the <I>motivating factors</I> underlying my current interests and behavior.<P>Oh, and by the way... what the heck is going on between you and the rest of the WORLD it seems on the other posts?!! Anyway, have you read anything by Rene Girard or Gil Bailie? Girard has come up with an anthropological thesis that talks about wo/man's bent towards scapegoating... YOU have been chosen as the candidate! If you haven't read on any of this, may I recommend <I>Violence Unveiled</I> by Gil Bailie - which describes Girard's theory in a more user-friendly way. I'm guessing you face this issue in more than this forum. I wish I knew what you looked like and your personality a bit more - I'm visualizing an Asian woman who has a LOT to say but doesn't say it. I'm probably way off since you're living in the South.<P>Hang in there and remember to NOT take anything personally... you have your interests and opinions as do others. But sometimes it seems like you against the world... chin up girl!<P>Cheers,<BR>Nicole<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once