I asked her to see a doctor, for her own healh reasons, and to do it for the kids. She got pretty upset and told me not to worry about her. Then like a dummy I started to talk about us. I should have just left it alone. She told me she needed to get away for a few days to think about the whole thing by herself. I did talk her into reading the divorce busting book while she was away. We are going to try to work out a time she can go. i hope I didn`t put us back to the beginning because it looked as if we had made some progress.she is in the frame of mind she doesn`t want me worrying about what she does. You can`t talk to her about ir when she gets like that. i don`t know if I1ll ever get her to a doctor. I just don`t want her to leave. I need to contionue to work on change.

Dont push too hard. That is a mistake I made that only caused things to spiral further and faster down. If I had shut up a year ago, things would probably have been ok now. Unfortunately it seems like most of us learn our lessons the hard way. Remember that inside she is probably very confused and cant really make heads or tails of things right now. She probably isnt in the right place right now to make those decisions. It may take a while.<P>Take care.<P>Matt

matt- should I not talk to her about us and let her bring up the subject? we have been getting along better the past week. I have been trying to give her more space. It is very hard not to push when you want things to get better right away.

I ahve been giving ehr space the past week. She still lets me know what she is doing. She told me she has alot of different feeling going on in her and doesn`t know why. I reallywant to support her.I feel that we are at a stand still. I guess I should continue to give her more space. and give it more time. I really think deep down she doesn`t want to leave. Should I just wait and se what happens? I feel so helpless!!!

Confused 58,<P>First off don't listen to jonquil, she is not being honest with herself about either how she first felt about her husband, or how she lost those supposed feelings.<P>Second, the possibility of your wife being with, or sharing emotional needs with is very great. Please read Harley's book (his needs her needs) also go back to this home page and read the articles posted there with Harley's responces. You will have the paterns you are seeing explained to you.<P>Next, no matter what you say or do will have any effect. You are the cause of your wife feeling the way she does (in her eyes) she has to blame it on something.<P>Don't beleive the accusations. If you love your wife and want your marrige to last try plan A for as long as you can take it. <P>I'm in plan B right now and it's he**. Two weeks seem like two years. It has been 22 years and three children for me. I heard all the same lines you have. I know about the om and it is ripping me apart. <P>My wife is 42 and went to a PA not her GYN and then lied about what went on there. So my advice is either go with her, have your daughter go with her or save your money and wait untill she decides to go on her own. You can't force her to go or to do anything. Remember she thinks you are the cause of all of this. So you surely can't be right in her eyes.<P>Our MC said mid life crisis the first visit, but he doesn't beleive in Hormone problems. But he is not an MD. I want to try a Physchitris which are MD's but now my wife thinks I think she is nuts and refuses to go. Remember if you say it or suggest it she will reject it, you need to hope and pray she hits the point where she knows she needs help. And let her know you will be waiting for her because you love her.<P>This is not easy, I'm hoping for some advise myself. I posted a message under other topics, Mid Life Crisis and have gotten no hits. I don't have any real answers for you. But I share your pain. Don't listen to any DOOM SAYERS if you love her, then you must wait. Keep hoping, and PRAYING. I'll keep you in my prayers and ask you to do the same for me.<BR>TIM P

Confused58<P>I am in the same situation as you after 26 years of marriage. So much of what has happened in the last year has caught me by complete suprise. We've been sleeping in separate rooms for the last four months. We just started couples counseling last week. My wife says she doesn't know what she wants. She can then turn around and hold my hand in church and rub it very affectionately. It leaves me just like you, confused.<P>I have told you these few things to set you up for reading a book that has answered virtually all my questions about "what happened" and "what happens next". The book is "Uncoupling: Turning Points in Intimate Relationships" by Diane Vaughan. This book explains very clearly the process that uncouples a couple. The book is based on actual experiences so it is not just some persons ideas. It describes how one of the parties in a couple will be unhappy with something in the relationship. This person is the initiator of the uncoupling. The start of the uncoupling is usually done in secret. This is why the other party in the couple (the partner) is caught completely unaware.<P>During the secret phase of the initiator's uncoupling process, they will have tried to "fix" the problem. Again, you may not even have been aware that they were trying to fix anything. When all there efforts seemed to have failed, they will then redefine the relationship. This is done by casting every aspect of the relationship in a negative light. This is why you start getting horror stories about events from years ago.<P>Now that the initiator has defined the relationship as not worth keeping, they in essence move on. This is done by developing a whole new social life that excludes the unaware partner (remember all that time away and space they want, and all the time spent with friends instead of you).<P>Finally the uncoupling process is revealed. You have most likely committed a "fatal mistake" that pushed the uncoupling into the open. Now that you are aware, however, the initiator is way ahead of you. They have already determined that the relationship isn't worth keeping. The partner's response is almost always to reconcile and is very hopeful that this is possible. The initiator, for reasons of guilt and trying to lessen the blow to the partner, will often offer kindnesses at this point. This is the reason for mass confusion. The partner is encouraged to keep trying while the initiator is trying to help the partner to agree with them the relationship is doomed.<P>I'm making this too long. The bottom line is that reconciliation at these advanced stages of uncoupling is very difficult. The answer seems to lie in finding out who the initiator has become (remember, they have already built a whole new life without the partner) and redefining yourself into someone who is attractive to the initiator. It can't be the old you, you've already seen that didn't work. Combined with plenty of pressures to stay married (kids, finances, guilt, choosing to do the right thing, etc.), the couple may stay together long enough to fall in love again. The initiator has to have reasons to redefine the relationship back into a positive light. The principles of Marriage Builders, Divorce Busting, and many others can help immeasureably in getting marriages get back together. I found it very helpful, though, to know what I am up against.<P>I hope I'm right because right now my marriage is in the balance. I am hoping that she will indeed fall in love with me again. Let's all have hope and offer our prayers to God.<p>[This message has been edited by tomr (edited April 19, 1999).]

tomr,<P>Thanks for that synopsis. I identified with just about every aspect of it. The bookstore called today to tell me that my copy of uncoupling had just come in. In view of what you had written, it should be quite enlightening. Good luck with your quest.

The more I keep thinking about my situation the more I keep thinking that this may be influenced by a change of life. As I think back about 3 or 4 months she really started to get moody. she can change moods in a matterof seconds. she has been very impatient with me and our kids. she gets very frustrated lately. Her sleeping paterns have really changed. She says she doesn`t feel right or well a lot lately.I guess I still need to work on my changes because I don`t know for sure what the cause is. It is just so hard not to want to rush things.

Confused, I am not sure if it's hormones, but I know one thing for sure it is He**. I have been married for 16 years and feeling bad about my marriage for over 2 years now. One day the light went on. I began to realize that he treated me very differently than he did for the first 12 years or so of our marriage. Just a thousand little ways he used to let me know he cared back then and they have all become a thousand little ways he lets me know he doesn't care anymore. It's called taking for granted the one you should care for more than anyone else and I hate it. <P>At first I just told myself he was too tired or too busy, or preoccupied by work, etc., etc. Then I realized my job had become more demanding and emotionally draining and yet I still poured energy into the relationship and needed the relationship. I examined how I was treating him and started trying to show him more how much I appreciate his good qualities. <P>I've read all of Dr. Harleys books plus at least 15 other books on marriage and relationships. I have asked him over and over again if he can treat me the way he used to, but he says he can't remember! So, I tried asking him in a nice way for what would make me happy and I try to remind him of the nice things he used to do. I let him know how much I appreciate him when I do. Sometimes it works, and he tries but it seems so phony. Mostly I feel very wierd having to ask my H for the common courtesies that he would afford to a friend, date or even a total stranger. Mostly I battle that nagging feeling that he would not treat me this way if he loved me so therefore he must not. It hurts. Add to that the fact that I hate the feeling I get that I'm nagging him for affection. I get more affection,attention and caring from employees at work, and how sad is that? <P>Add to that the continuing unfolding of secrets he has kept from me for years regarding his family. I asked him why he has not told me these things and he says he guesses he learned to keep secrets from his upbringing. I asked him what I could do for him to make our relationship better and closer and he says "Nothing", that I am "perfect". I don't know where to go from here. I am hurting less than I did a year ago but I worry that I'm falling out of love with him and I don't know what to do about that. I tell you all this to show you how it happens and I know because it's happening to me. <P>Your wife could have started having feelings of ambivilence and pain a long time ago. It may take a long time for her to believe you are sincere in your efforts. She's could be tired of hurting and afraid to let you too close to her. Be patient and keep doing what you're doing. Be consistent. She may come back around. Best wishes to you!<P>[This message has been edited by AnnieO (edited April 08, 1999).]<P>[This message has been edited by AnnieO (edited April 08, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by AnnieO (edited April 08, 1999).]

Some of what you are saying sounds familiar. We haven`t been doing the little things for each other to show that we care for the past few years. I guess after 20 years you take each other for granted. When we talked a week or so ago she did tell me she dropped some hints the past year that we were growing apart. i guess at the time I didn`t want to believe it and didn`t do anything about it. When she told me I then remembered it and it really hit me. Sionce then I have been trying to do some of those little things. i only hope she doesn`t think it just a ploy to get her to stay. i can only contine to do these things and work on my own changes and hope for the best. I really have been having some bad days where I have all kinds of things running through my mind and I want to run and tell her. This does not work. i did this in the beginning and it only made things worse.

Confused, that's the key, isn't it. I think in one of Dr. Harley's books he talks about the fact that at one point in his marriage it took 2 years to rebuild his relationship and trust with his wife because of some of the lovebusting behaviors he had done. Just keep on doing those little things and if it will be, then it will, and if not, you will find some comfort in knowing that you did all you could. We all owe that to ourselves and to our marriages. Since she is talking to you I say there is still hope. If you can find out what she really wants and needs and give that to her you'll be miles ahead. She may not want to talk about it though. I know I HATE having to tell him everything I need, it's humiliating, but I have had to do it. Have you read HNHN? It might give you some great insights and ideas. If you're not much of a reader then just read the part on her needs. It's great to let her know that you deeply regret how you grew apart. Keep doing what you're doing and try not to let the negative thoughts get to you. Best Wishes!

How do I find out what her wants and needs are without asking her. I don`t really want to do that right now. Some days it is really hard to keep the negative thoughts out.There are so many days that I look at her and just want to hold her. I really ach for her when she is not around. How do you rid yourself of this constant pain?I find myself thinking of her all the time. I try to get my mind onto something else but it keeps going back to her.I guess you are right, I do have some hope since she is talking to me. It has been over two months since she told me about this and it seems like 2 years. Each day drags on and as each day passes I can`t help but to loose a little more hope. I know I have to stay positive and upbeat but it is getting harder to do.

Confused, Is she still in the house, or did she move out? Look on this Web sites for the most important emotional needs. For women they are affection, conversation, honesty and openness, financial support and family commitment. Remember that affection is not the same for men and women. For most men, they think affection is sex. For many women the sex part only is wanted after they get a lot of the affection part (without sex). They want to know that you love them and care for them as a person (not as a sex partner.) I only tell you this because it is a big complaint of many women. Keep talking to her. Coversation is important. Dredge up the old romantic memories. How you fell in love with her, why you love her. Her best qualities. How you regret any neglect or pain you ever caused her. But you can't just jump in an say all this. You have to first start the conversation on other topics. Ease into it. Be sure you're not pushing her, just telling her how you feel. <P>Then you can use guilt. A very powerful motivator. How old are your 3 kids? Many women will walk through fire to protect kids from the kind of pain caused by divorce. Tell her how much you want to work this out for your family. If she is happy with your role as a father it could make a difference. <P>What has she told you about her feelings? Listen carefully. It's hard when you're hurting, but she could be giving you valuable hints.<P>Are you in couseling? If not you should both go. If she won't go, you should go alone. Let her know you are going.<P>As for the pain, I know it's unbelievable. My first husband had an affair and I was left with no money, a lot of debt and a 4 year old son. Eventually the pain does go away. I know it's really hard but just do your best to be positive and focus on the hope you have. Your life will be a lot better some day no matter what happens. Hold onto that when you're feeling desperate.

Has anyone out there recovered their mariage from a situation like confused?

Annieo- She is still living in the house and we have 3 kids. I`m afraid to start talking about us. i tried that at least once a week until about 2 weeks ago. I stopped because it seemed to push us apart even more. i got the divorce busting book and read it and am tryining to combine the two ideas. I have mostly been working on change. The past 2 weeks have been going a little better. She went away for a few days to relax and think. she really neede it because of us and a lot of stress at work. I thought I was seeing some small progress. We have not been sleeping in the same room, but the night before she left she did sllep in the same bed as me.She also had been finding things to do at night likre going shopping with a friend or going to a friends house. I think just not to be home with me. But earlier this week she invited her freind over and we all spent the evening together. Do you think that is at least a little progress. She also called me each day she was away. Before she left i wrote her a letter describing how I was going to change my life and how i thought it would help us in the future, I also added what I thought splitting up would do to the kids. When I talked to her I didn`t bring up the letter. I put it in the car before she left where she had to find it. i also put in a copy of the divorce busting book. we are not in counseling and she does not want to go. i have been trying to get on with my life but have been having a lot of bad days lately. I know that I should be positive now ,with some hpe, but that feeling soon turns to panic and negative thoughts. Jef- I also would be interested in hearing from anyone that has come back from this. I`m not looking for a miracle, Just some signs of hope.

Confused,<BR>To me it is a good sign that she is still in the house. I also think writing her the letter was a good idea. Sometimes it's a lot easier to communicate in writing. If she's close to the kids it will be harder for her to leave the marriage. I agree with Jeff regarding anyone who has brought their marriage back from this. It would be interesting to see what they did. I know it takes a long time and a lot of patience. It's hard to be patient when you are hurting. As you have already determined, when you try to push it, she just distances herself from you. There is a section on this website that I read regarding how 1 person can save a marriage. You should read it. A good counselor with experience in this could probably help you a lot even if your wife won't go. <P>

AnnieO- Where on this web site does it talk about one person saving a marriage? I decided not to give her the letter. i did see a little progress today and I don`t want to risk loosing that. after i read the letter again I thought it sounded too much like begging her to try at our marriage again. i think it might be best if I waited a while and If there is no more progress I might write another one.I thank you for your concern and thoughts. if I didn`t have this place to get all my thoughts out I`d go crazy. By the way how are you doing? Is your situation making any progress?

I got into it with her last night. I trid to talk about a few things about us and she told me that I was thinking there were positive signs and there weren`t. she went back to sleeping by herself and talked about moving out. I pushed again. i don`t know how I will live with myself if she leaves now. she gets mad when i bring up the kids. It must be a sensitive spot, but still says she will leave without them. I really don`t know what to do now. Doing little things for her only upsets her. Some one help!!!!!!!

I don`t know if it was the talk we had last week or the letter I gave her that she read over the weekend but this week has been totaly different. We even slept in the same bed allweek. I`ll not push and see what happens. All I can hope is she gets a little closer to me each week. It`s hard to go without showing any affection, but if I do I`m afraid I go back to the way we were 2 months ago. I`ll have to see how she reacts. Any advice? Jonqiul- i did respect your opinion. At the time I was really worried that she would leave me any day and over reacted to what you told me.

double post removed<p>[This message has been edited by Alice (edited April 25, 1999).]