Well here's the story,<P>I have been married 2 1/2 years. My wife and I have not had a very happy marriage. She would keep fighting with me over trivial issues and I would continue to withdraw from her. She would also subject me to terrible tirades replete with expletives and on several occasions would also attack me and hit me. I on the other hand have never cursed at her or touched her in anger. For example on one occasion we had an argument on New Year's eve 1999. I had been planning for 6months to spend the day in Times Square. But she decided to go off and spend the night with her friends in NY city. When she got back she smelled heavily of liquor and without saying a word went to sleep. That night I decided to leave for home (we were at my in-laws). But while I was waiting for the flight in the departure lounge she appeared at the airport. She started cursing me out for leaving without telling her and she also started punching and kicking me. I didn't touch her but just went to an isolated part of the lounge where she continued to attack me. Funny how no one called security but if it had been the other way around cops would have been all over me.<P>Anyways, this year my wife and I were visiting my family overseas on Christmas. While I was there I was very uneasy with the frankness between my brother and my wife. When we got back here I put a tap on the computer. Sure enough I found out that my brother and my wife had been having an affair. In the e-mails there was a disgusting torrid account of physical interaction too. And of course the romantic declarations of consummate love for each other were there too.<P>My wife claims that there was no physical interaction despite what they wrote and it was all vicarious. She also claims that she had no feelings for him but she did it only because he was there for him and I was neglecting her. She says that she has cut it off completely since I found out. Anyways to cut a long story short, we are separated now. She claims that she was and is in extreme depression because I never gave her any emotional solace and that is why she had the affair. She has apologized a lot for the affair. But every time she apologizes she also justifies it by blaming me for having neglected her. I don't care how much my wife would have neglected me, I would never have cheated on her. And that too with my brother!!!!!!!!!!<P>Sorry about the long post but could anyone please advise me. I have no friends or relatives here in the US and am extremely lonely and going crazy. I really love her but I am so heartbroken that I know I will never be able to trust her again. And to top it off she wants certain (emotional) conditions met before she returns. Is that fair? What happens if we have children and life becomes so hectic that I don't give her the exact amount of romance she wants? Won't she go and have an affair again?

Hello and Welcome to Marriage Builders!<P>First, I would like to share two links with you. Just click on the underlined links here, and read –><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi10_tour.html" TARGET=_blank>Tour of Marriage Builders</A> and <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000553.html" TARGET=_blank>General Welcome</A>. <P>Please read everything you can on this site, post and read often!! <P>I have been betrayed and betrayer, so I have the dubious honor of knowing what infidelity does from BOTH SIDES of the situation. <P>I believe in the concepts espoused here, if applied properly. One idea that has worked *wonders* for some couples is Plan A. Read about it here –><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8113_ab.html" TARGET=_blank>What Are Plan A and Plan B</A>.<P>Use what you learn here to make your marriage a safe place where you do your best to meet the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html" TARGET=_blank>Emotional Needs</A> of your spouse,and avoid <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3400_lovebust.html" TARGET=_blank>Love Busters</A> whenever possible. . When a decision must be made, use the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3500_policy.html" TARGET=_blank>POJA</A> to determine the final outcome that you can both agree upon.<P>Many couples find that counseling is VERY helpful, and the counseling provided here is excellent for several reasons; but the most important is that it goes along with the concepts here. Check it out here –> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counsel Link</A><P>Again, welcome to our community, and feel free to write often and ask lots of questions!<P><B>About your post</B>: I am sorry for your pain, and loneliness... and such a short marriage so far to be going through this kind of problem!<P>It isn't fair what she is asking... but... and I know how hard this is... you are the one who came here, so it looks like you might have to be the one to "do the work"... it stinks, I know. She breaks your heart and you have to work...<P>It sounds like you want your marriage... especially since you found this site! You will probably get some conflicting advice here, because you don't have children and it is such a new marriage. <P>My advice: if you want your marriage, then work at it until you can't any longer (hit the wall).<P>Let's see what some others have to offer...<P>Again, welcome. You're not alone!!<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Honestly speaking I want nothing more to have her back. But the problem is that over these two years I have come to realize that if she doesn't have things exactly her way then they are useless. When we moved to MN I knew she was very close to her family in NY. But I wanted us to get to know each other and live our own life. We had everything, a great apratment, several wonderful vacations, cars. Bu teverytime she would run back to New York claiming she missed her family. If I said anything to stop her it would break out in a huge fight. In a total of 30 months of marriage she has made at least 9/10 trips to NY averaging 3- 4 weeks each.<P>I feel completely betrayed and feel that I have no right whatsoever in this marriage. Also, i have never felt lonelier in life than in marriage!!!<P>Thank you for the links. I'll try looking into them but I feel so spent at trying. I know we love each other a lot but it seems that that just makes us hurt each other that much more. And I am really tired of all the accusations and abuse. Now that we are separated I actually feel like I can breathe. Before I would have to spend 30 seconds wondering if I should say what I wanted to say.<P><BR>And above all, thank youfor the kind and comforting words. I never knew I could meet such understanding people in an online forum.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by justTired (edited May 22, 2001).]

justTired,<P>Normally, I would surely suggest that you fight for this marriage, but your W has done something I don't feel you fully appreciate.<P>One of the things that is strongly recommended is that a wayward spouse, WS, not ever have contact with the person they had an affair with. In this case that person would be your brother. Now I don't know how close you are to your brother, nor how he has managed to even be someone you consider family after what he has done, but you will be faced with losing a member of your family.<P>You see your W having an affair with your brother, pretty much seals the deal. Given her overall behavior and the fact that we suggest that people seek counseling and get away from an abusive spouse, and the fact that she had an affair with your brother, I would say you might want to seriously consider leaving this woman. She is very sick.<P>I hope that you will get other advice here. I suspect you will, but frankly I cannot in good consciousness tell you that you should save this marriage. I deeply apologize and I surely wish I could, but I cannot. I am sorry.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

I'll tell ya, <B>JL</B> is very wise, and I've never heard him say that he believes someone should leave a marriage. So, I went back and went through your post with a fine toothed comb... just to see if I missed something.<P>I didn't mention, but I noticed, the physical abuse aspect. I also noticed the "depression" you mentioned, which was nothing new to me, since we read of depression in a wayward spouse (WS) often. Neither of these was a surprise, but I have to say that, upon reflection, the abuse alone would possibly warrent your leaving the marriage. <P><B>JL</B> brought up the "brother" difficulties, and he is right about that. There must be NO CONTACT, and of course, with a brother, that is impossible. <P><B>justTired</B>, you will need some help to get through this. Might I suggest you look into the counseling here. Give them a call and see what they say. <BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7000_counsel.html" TARGET=_blank>Counsel Link</A><BR><P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

JL is one of the people I respect most on this forum.<P>I would have given up everything to have saved my marriage, including my family. That is something you have to consider, because of the seriousness of this particular type of betrayal. It's a bit out of the "norm" and an exceptionally difficult situation to resolve. Very serious and intense counseling is definitely in order.<P>If you decide to pursue reconcilliation you have to understand how difficult this path is going to be. <P>I honestly believe that 99% of all marriages can be saved. The other 1% involve abuse and situations that I honestly can't figure out how to categorize. I am very sorry to say that yours falls squarely into the 1% category.<P>I wish I could tell you something to help, but I'm way out of my league on this one. Your wife needs very serious counselling. And you will too...<P>Take care, guard your heart....<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

Moving this up in hopes that someone has better suggestions than I could offer to justTired.<P>JL

My only suggestion would be that the two of you run yourselves through <I><B>Retrouvaille</B></I> before giving up the ghost. Make that <I><B>your</B></I> precondition for reconnection.

Hmmm, a couple of things jump out at me. First, even though your W apologized (sort of) for her affair, she seemed to blame YOU for causing the affair. Strike one. Also, I don't see any indication from her that SHE wants to work on building a good marriage; rather, it's up to YOU to make her happy and to "keep" her from having another affair. Strike two. Finally, she sounds very immature in that she still views her "family" as consisting of her and her parents, rather than of her and YOU. Strike three. <P>How old is your W? Is she over the age of 21 (not a word, JL )? I wonder if she is ready to be married, and to make the needed adjustments and sacrifices that come with married life?<P>I wouldn't categorize your situation as hopeless, but I think someone has a lot of growing up to do, and it ain't you...<P>AGG

Hello again,<P>First off let me thank everyone for their kind advice. It is really heartening to be able to talk to someone and get their point of view. I have read every reply very carefully and am taking all of your words very seriously since this is my only outlet.<P>Concerning my situation, I talked to my wife (WS) last night. Over these past two months that we have separated she has apologized a lot of times. She has also sworn to me that she has had no contact with him (OM) i.e. my brother since I found out. She does cry a lot but it is never while apologizing. Rather, in my opinion, while she is feeling sorry for her situation. I think she has come to the realization of how she had it all. But I still think she is crying and feeling bad for the marriage not for me as a person.<P>After having read some very informative articles on this website I am now thinking that she may be so upset only because she has had to (of her own will) cut off contact with him so abruptly. Is that possible? By the way, my brother (OM) is in another country and the only way she can have face to face contact with him is once every year at the best i.e. if we get back and if we visit my family overseas. However, there is always the telephone and e-mails but she swears she has had no contact and in fact that she hates him for having taken advantage of her in her depression.<P>Now she has also been saying that she is very eager to try to make this marriage work. But at the same time she starts imposing conditions on me. She starts telling me of what I did before that led to her having an affair and starts telling me that that has got to change if she is to come back. I admit that I did make mistakes when she would argue with me over something and that was primarily withdrawing and building a wall around me. That was very wrong. but I hadn't come upon this website then. And I am sort of at a point where I don't want to do anything for her sake alone.<P>The one thing that is really really bothering me is that she is doing her best to be communicable right now because she knows she has been caught and is fully in the wrong. I have a strong feeling that underneath she has not changed at all. I strongly feel that if I do ask her to come back then at the first argument things are going to explode and she is going to start abusing me both mentally and physically again.<P>I do love her very much and I believe she does too. However, I am completely split down the middle right now. On the one hand I want her back really bad and I want us to be happy again. But on the other hand I think I am at a point where I just won't be able to take her arguments anymore. I think I will explode if she argues with me the way she has always done. I am completely torn. I won't be able to tolerate this pain again.<P>Even last night as we were talking she kept talking as if in an argument. It is almost as if in every conversation where we have differing opinions it is a contest that she has to win with her opinion prevailing.<P>Oh and AGoodGuy, she is 31 and I am 28.<P>Finally, (sorry for the long post again), she is asking me to make up my mind quickly. She says that she is completely torn up, is going through extreme stress, and doesn't want to have to wait to find out that things didn't work out.

To all in general, and "Just Learning" in particular<P>With regards to my most recent post, is it possible that she has learned her lesson or do people usually display behavioral patterns of infidelity>

justTired,<P>It is possible that she has learned some lessons, but you aren't clear on what they are. Apologizing is good, but I don't sense she appreciates what she has done.<P>I want to probe a bit, and please tell me if you don't feel like answering these questions.<P>1. What does your brother say about all of this?<P>2. Does anyone else in your family know what has happened?<P>3. If you go to visit your family again, how are you going to be able to handle the proximity of your W and your Brother? How will she handle it?<P>4. Are you willing to lose your family over her?<P>Now, it seems to me if I were running your life, I would insist upon anger management counseling for her. I would insist on marriage counseling for the both of you. I would tell her one, just one physical outburst from her, and the papers would be filed. I would document and have her sign an acknowledgement of her past physical abuse. (If she drives you to blow up, you will be the one in jail my friend)<P>It is very possible that people learn from affairs and recover their marriage. It is done here often. And it does take the betrayed spouse changing some of their behaviors. However, it takes the wayward spouse acknowledging that the affair was ALL their fault.<P>justTired, I have been married for 25 years, and I didn't get married until I was 31. Marriage is not the easiest thing in the world to do, and there are many "soulmates" out there for you to chose from. She is not the "only one". She is one of many. You have chosen her and married her, so by definition she becomes "the one". However, she has shattered the vows, she did it with your brother, and she is physically abusive. This coupled with the fact that you don't have any children leads me to believe that you would be much better off without this woman. She is very bad news and you won't be able to change her. She has deep, deep problems.<P>I am certain that if you decide to try and rebuild this marriage, you both will need a lot of counseling. The people here (myself for sure) are not trained nor qualified to address problems this serious. I am not sure they can be fixed.<P>So I guess I stand by my recommendation. However, keep posting. As I said you will undoubtably get other advice. I know this is hard, I know you miss many aspects of your marriage, but I think you can do much better.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<BR>

Throughout your short marriage your wife has verbally and physically abused you. She has committed adultery with your brother. She blames you for her decision to have an affair. She imposes conditions that you need to do in order for her to return to the marriage. This does not sound like a woman who is remorseful for committing adultery with your brother. Unless you are a masochist and want to be tormented I would recommend that you move on and find a woman who is mentally stable.

I've been reading all of the replies to my thread very carefully. It is starting to sink in that we might not be getting back together, and I am scared.<P>I'm sorry to sound like such a weak man but when I married my W I sort of built my whole world around her. I used to dream and think about all the things we would do together. And now that I am faced with the realization that everything is shattered I can't seem to find the will to go on. I feel so hurt, bitter, and sad. I can't find the will to do anything anymore. It seems like my whole body has been sapped of all its vigor.<P>Life seems to have come to such a painful grinding halt. And to top it off being in a new city and state I have no friends or relatives at all who I could talk to or empathize with (she is with her family and friends). I never thought life could get so lonely and painful. <P>If it is this bad now how am I going to cope with the divorce?<p>[This message has been edited by justTired (edited May 24, 2001).]

justTired,<P>You are very likely in the midst of a depression. If things don't start looking better then see a Dr. and get some anti-D meds. They will help you take the edge off.<P>Time justTired, Time is the key ingredient to you healing. You have been separated for two months and you are still grieving the loss of the life you envisioned. That doesn't mean that your life will be a loss, far from it. But right now do your griefing and you will heal.<P>Do get out and do things. Meet people, join some organizations (religious, political, recreational, etc) start to gradually bring your life back to life.<P>Make sure to eat well and get exercise and talk with someone or on this site. You would probably do well to get a counselor if you don't have one. It will help to have someone to work through this with.<P>I wish there was a way to relieve the pain, but only time and patience can do that. By the way the blaming you for her having the affair is pretty normal in the first period after discovery. I hope that she finally take responsibility for what she has done.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Your message touched me because I am going through a similar situation. I am leaving my husband because of emotional abuse. He says he loves me and wants to work it out but I know if I stay it's only a matter of time before he lashes out again. I can never do anything to please him and he sees fault in everything I do. <P>Like you, I want to be able to breathe again. How nice that would be. I want to feel peace in my life after so many agonizing years. I am scared to be alone and do love him but realize now that I have got to start caring about myself. <P>It is not your fault that your wife had an "affair" with your brother. It sounds to me that she is not happy with herself and looks to you for attention and to affirm that she is a somebody. Don't let her wear you down as my H has done to me. We need to be strong and fight for happiness!

I'm going to have a go at this too.<P>I have known a man who was in a relationship with an abusive woman. Among other tricks, she put a butcher knife through a door three times. She would hit, claw, and curse at him. And when he finally retaliated, he went to jail though he had claw marks on his chest.<P>Are you prepared for that?<P>Additionally, Whatever happens, you need to get some counseling. There may well be a support group in your area for people who are in or have been in abusive relationships. <P>I recommend you seek out counseling for yourself. I recommend, also, that you consider medical help to deal with the depression. <P>And I recommend that you not talk to this woman about reconciliation unless you include the words "If you want to talk about reconciliation, first we have to go into individual <B>AND</B> couples counseling."<P>You aren't just talking about getting your heart broken. You're talking about getting hurt. And this stuff behaviour is difficult to change. <P>I know you love her. But she is not well. And her illness is pervading your life. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by cinderella (edited May 24, 2001).]

Just Learning, Cinderella, and Leigha,<P><BR>I'ld like to also add that yes we had bad times. But when we had our good times they were phenomenal. We would forget that a world existed outside of us two. And that is what is tearing me apart. These good times were few and interspersed by bitter fights. But nevertheless they were there until the affair. We were capable of great happiness together.<P>Am I ever going to find that solace again? Will I look back on my decision 2-3 years from now and think I made the biggest mistake of my life in leaving her? Or should I just leave and never look back?<P>Also, by nature I am very timid and an introvert. I don't go to bars or clubs. I do go to social places but that used to be only with my wife. I like to travel and have hated doing it alone. I can't seem to bring myself to go to a support group.<P>To top it off, due to my current situation I can't afford counselling.<P>When it rains,it pours.

Well, sometimes we have to afford what we cannot afford. Let's look at the options. <P>What kind of employer do you work for. Many companies, especially larger ones, have Employee Assistance Programs (EAPs) where you can be referred to a free or reduced fee counseling program. If not your employer, possibly your wife's employer. And if that is not an option, there are many community mental health organizations which work on a sliding fee. And, also, it may possible that your medical insurance would cover counseling. <P>Don't just rule it out because of money. This is your sanity we're talking about.

Cinderella,<P>I guess you're right. My goodness the simplest things are so difficult now. Just getting out of bed is an achievement.<P>Isn't it amazing, how we feel invincible until God shows us our fallings and weaknesses. And all of a sudden we are so frail and weak and in need of support...