confused....I understand, and it looks like you are making progress. You must be doing something right, for I would have never moved back into bed with my husband if there werent some doubts in my mind about ending the marriage. Keep the faith!<BR>jonquil

Hello, I'm new, but was touched by the caring advice that you have received. I remember feeling the desperation and desire to "fix" everything when my spouse and I divorced 12 years ago. After a year and a half of attempts, my efforts failed. What succeeded was my new love and appreciation of myself. You have "3" very good reasons to continue caring for yourself, and I admire your courage.

It does look like I`m making some progress some days. I`ll have 3 or 4 good days tat really help my mind and then there will be some small things that happen that make me feel like we`re not getting any where, and that really depresses me.So I really don`t know if we`re getting anywhere or not. Maybe I`m over reacting to the negative things. I know i`m having a hard time staying positive these days.

confused58,<P>I have been reading your posts with some interest. This is because I have seen very similar circumstances myself. My ex and I used to belong to a "close" circle of friend that consisted of 3 couples including us. Within one year, all 3 of the marriages had reached separation, and in each case the script our ex's used sounded exactly the same as your wife. It's almost like there is a text book out there that people are reading from.<P>Although our marriages were shorter than yours (8-10 years), and I'm younger than you (31), I think I might have some observations based on the benefit of hindsight.<P>The first thing you should realize is the problem is NOT you. Yes, you probably screwed up 10^40 times during your relationship with your wife. You are not perfect. Nobody is. But, my guess is you are a pretty decent guy. You can assume no more than your 50% of the responsibility for the failure. You only have control over your 50%, the other 50% is up to her. She is the one who has decide she might want to leave.<P>There are many things that could have caused this change in her. No doubt frustration with the relationship was one. Inexperience is likely to be another. By my math, I figure your wife was 18 when you got married. That would suggest limited dating experience. Sometimes people idealize things, relationships especially. To her, the grass is very green on the other side right now. But she doesn't realize she still has to mow it.<P>My advice would be for you to stop trying to "save" the relationship. That is not what she wants to do. Any attempt to do that on your part will be viewed as opposition to her wishes and possible "control". The relationship probably cannot be saved until she is there to do her 50%. (Please DO NOT mention this to her.)<P>I think, with all the usual legal "don't blame me if it doesn't work" stuff, that you should let her go. Don't kick her out or anything stupid, but instead become her best friend and biggest supporter. If she wants a separation agreement, pretend she's asked you for a new house and help her design it. Be a great dad to your kids. When she wants to talk, listen to her in an empathetic way without judgement or advice. Tell her you love her and always will. Say nice things to her. But let her do what she wants. Let her feel what she wants. Validate her feelings if you can. If she wants to "date", (yikes, that's tough) you will unfortunately have to suck it up and let her (best to do this post separation). But all the while be the most supportive and trustworthy person she knows. It will teach you good skills for dealing with anyone, including a (much future) new relationship. But if you can be that kind of person to her, I think you have the best chance of being the person she chooses for that new relationship. If she does leave, tell her you love her, that you will always care about her, and that your door is open if she ever wants to talk. Then go to a bar with your best friend and do all your crying and say all your angry things with him.<P>Some don'ts: You are in no position to bargain at this point, so don't. Don't try to convince her of the merits of your relationship. She has already backward validated her feelings, and she doesn't see anything good about 20 years together. Do not cause her to dig in. If she is proud, (who isn't) it may get to the point where she can't change her mind because she has too much crow to eat. Any conversation in which she says something that you hope she doesn't mean, is a conversation you should not have had. Only talk about what she wants to talk about. Do not beg her to come back. It will only make you look desperate and unattractive in her eyes. Don't promise to change. You probably cannot change as much as you would like. There are interaction things and habits that probably have to go, but in the end you will still be you. She knows that and will view your promises as a desperate plea.<P>Hope that helps. I have lots of other guesses as to what could be going on with her, but none of that matters. The only thing you can control is your 50%.<BR>

I appreciate your thoughts. I would be interested in hesring what your other guesses are on what elsr you think might be wrong. You are right, she was 18 when we married. I`m pretty sure there isn`t an affair going on. I`ve given her the opportunity to tell me about it and she has nothing to loose by telling me. Right now most of her time is spent on her work. I have been trying to be her friend and be there for her the past , almost 2 weeks. They have been the best we had gotten along since this whole mess started in Jan. I guess It`s because I haven`t been persuing her. She also hasn`t mentioned leaving in that short time either, and has actually asked me to do things for her.She also has come back to bed and slept every night since. maybe she is coming around. When I think about it you are right, I can only accept 50% of the blame. When this first started when I would want to talk about it she would make it sound like it was totally my responsibility and I should have seen it coming and done something about it.You gave me some more things to think about. Thanks

I am new but i hope that maybe some one may have some good advice for me. My husband has just decided in the last couple of weeks that he is no longer "in love" with me. We are definately in the withdrawl stage but even after he said he is willing to work on the marriage things seem to gotten even more strange between us. We will only have our 3rd year anniversary June 1 and we have a 1 year old daughter. He is 31 now and i feel that maybe he is going throught a midlife crisis because he says that we are going in two different directions but he cant tell me which direction either if us are going in. He feel as though he has wasted his life away and is sick of saying that he going to do something and never doing it. I know that he also does not like his job and i believe that he feels unsuccessful. <P>It has just been a couple of weeks and it is killing me not to get too upset or mad and just wait around for what seems to be fatal to our marriage. Does any one have any advice on what he may be going through and maybe how i can help him find his love for me again?

This post seems to be a very popular one, and the title is what drew my attention as well as others I'm sure. Anyway-confused I want to let you know that I am in your situation only reversed. I am 28/F and have been married 4 years. I don't feel "in love" with my H, and don't think I have been for a long time.There were so many good responses to your post. I read every one of them, and it helped me to understand maybe how my H feels right now. But it doesn't change how I feel. The thing I am curious about though, is how long do you hold on and try to make it work. 6 months (to me) seems about the limit. I just can't imagine going on basically living seperate lives and hope to work it out. Looking at your posts you said it's hard to stay positive. I can only imagine that it gets worse before it gets better, and I ask myself does it get better?? I am going to put up a new post, I hope some will reply to it, there have been a lot of good listeners to this post.

As you can see from my posts I`m no expert, or even one to be giving advice. But I can tell you what I would have done differently. I have had 3 long months to really think about the past 20 years of marriage to my wife. I`ve known her for 22 years and we always, because of my job, lived away from friends and relatives. She has been my best friend, companion and lover. Don`t ever let the fun out of your relationship. Don`t take each other for granted. I really believe this is a big factor in what has happend to us. I, myself, can`t put a time frame on the repair of our marriage. When she first told me she didn`t love me , we slept separately, and she would hardly speak to me. Now we sleep together and actually have conversations together. There still is no affection shown but I can only hope that will come.I also hope that we can start to do things, and enjoy things together. I really don`t care how long it takes. I have learned to appreciate what she has done to my life and how much I really love her. I am working on changing my life for the better, I hope.

As you can see from my posts I`m no expert, or even one to be giving advice. But I can tell you what I would have done differently. I have had 3 long months to really think about the past 20 years of marriage to my wife. I`ve known her for 22 years and we always, because of my job, lived away from friends and relatives. She has been my best friend, companion and lover. Don`t ever let the fun out of your relationship. Don`t take each other for granted. I really believe this is a big factor in what has happend to us. I, myself, can`t put a time frame on the repair of our marriage. When she first told me she didn`t love me , we slept separately, and she would hardly speak to me. Now we sleep together and actually have conversations together. There still is no affection shown but I can only hope that will come.I also hope that we can start to do things, and enjoy things together. I really don`t care how long it takes. I have learned to appreciate what she has done to my life and how much I really love her. I am working on changing my life for the better, I hope.

Things are still about the same. I guess I`ve been getting depressed a lot lately because I don`t see things getting better much faster. She has been pouring herself into her work and has been spending a lot of time at it. That leaves me at home most evenings with my youngest. The older 2 usually have things to do. I also have been doing most things around the house for the kids and her to try to help her out as much as possible. I don`t hear a word from anyone about all the things I do. Some days i feel like I`m the family doormat. Take, take take and no one gives back. I guess all this is finally getting to me. I work 2 nights and 50 hours a week. It seems like all I do is work when I am home.I really can`t make any plans because I don`t know when she will be home. I have to go away for a few days on family business and mabe it will give me time to clear my mind. I am going by myself. It will also give them all a feeling of how much I do around the house. I really doubt i will be missed though. I guess this is one of those depressed days for me. I`m getting more and more of them all the time. I have been trying to put up a happy front in front of my wife and kids. A small kiss or hug from her would go a long way. 4 months without any affection is starting to hurt.<p>[This message has been edited by confused58 (edited May 04, 1999).]

Confused<P>I know what you mean it has been one of those days for me too. Hang in there. Tomorrow is a new day and decided now that it is going to be a good one and make the best of it. Good Luck.

Confused,<P> I have been reading all the replys to this post. I saw on your last post you mentioned feeling like a doormat. Well welcome to the wifes world now. Its not fun being taken for granted and never getting a thank you for all the work you do everyday around the house. I have been married 14 years and like some of you am not in love anymore. I got taken for granted for alot of years and I resent myself more then anything because I kept my mouth shut. There has been hardly any affection between us for well over 8 months now. Its really hard to live in the same house and live sepearte lives. So know where some of you are there. I feel like my heart has been ripped out and stomped on time and time again. I see no light at the end of this tunnel. I have tryed and cannot force feelings that are just not there. I have changed alot and so has he. We are so different now. Sad thing was just thinking last night when the last time w really had fun together. I could not remember. We don't have hardly anything in common except for our kids. In my heart I think we both know whats coming. For one I am scared to death mostly financially.I have been in thereapy. It did help me see alot but still have alot of empty feelings. I do know one thing I learned from thereapy and that is I need to find me again. One thing was right on this post I read is you have to keep the passion etc. going. Lost that long time ago too. I don't know if any of you can relate to what I am writing but I needed to vent. Been having really bad days here also. I want to be happy again. I don't know how or where to find it but I hope I don't have to feel this pain to much longer. Sorry this was so long thanks for reading. Take care all.

Wonder,<P>In the 8 years I was married, I probably didn't say thank you to my wife near as much as I should have. On the other hand, I was the sole provider of our family, did all the yard work, put her through university to her Master's Degree, looked after the kids by myself 2 nights a week while she went to school, fixed her car, actually painted it once (that was a lot of work!), looked after them a third night a week while she went out with her friends, painted the whole house, built lots of things like a nice laundry station, fences, swing sets, etc., often cooked supper, cleaned the kitchen, played with the kids in the back yard, pulled them around in a little bike trailer, you name it. I still found time to get a sitter and take her out at least once a week. I don't recall her ever saying thank you either. When I got a nice bonus, she would waltz merrily off to the store and by a couple of nice leather couches, but I don't recall her ever saying thank you for working so hard.<P>Actually, when she kicked me out she said it was because she was tired of doing "everything" in the relationship. Because I was using her. Well, she is right, she did do lots of stuff, and I didn't always say thank you. But I still think people need to be fair about these things, instead of assuming the worst. I always assumed she was grateful for all the work I did even if she didn't say it, and I was grateful for what she did (especially the enormous amount of work it is to raise two children), even if I didn't mention it every day.<P>I think what we accuse other people of is more a reflection of ourselves than it is a reflection of the accused. I think that's what the phrase "remove the log from your own eye first, so that you may see the speck in your brother's eye more clearly" is all about. <P>Now that I am out of the house, my ex is finding the kids, the house, and the yard a little more than she can handle. Also, she is not finding it as easy to find a job as she thought, and will probably lose the house. She is running out of money, perhaps because she spends a little too much flying with her boyfriend out of town for concerts (he cannot pay for his own tickets). (OK, ok, I'm just angry because I think this is a misuse of child support payments!) Also, even with me taking the children quite often, her personal mobility is greatly reduced.<P>On the other hand, I'm having more fun than ever. Most nights I have nothing to do anymore besides play soccer or golf. I have caught up with my friends, made new friends, and even re-established my relationship with my parents! All winter I was able to ski every second weekend. I even went to Mexico with some friends! I am paying child support. Quite a bit really. Some people can live off those numbers. But I live cheap and what's left leaves me more recreation than I had before.<P>I've gone on so long I've forgotten my point…

I had gone out of town by myself for a few days and had a lot of time to think. When I look at the big picture I feel that we have made some progress the past month or so , give or take a few bad days. It is hard to stay positive when you are having a bad day and thinking negative thoughts. you do have to make yourself happy before you can try to make yoyr spouse happy. Before I went out of town I kissed my wife goodbye. That was the first time in 3 months and It really felt good. She hasn`t mentioned leaving for the past month and overall I think things have been pretty good. I think a small kiss in the morning or a nightmight do us both some good.Everyone needs some type of affection, no matter how small it may be. I want to see what type of reaction I will get from her. You have to want your relationship to succeed. Even though your partner doesn`t want to try. I am hoping she is starting to feel different. I want to take her out by ourselves but our schedules haven`t allowed us to. I hope to make the time in the next week or two.

confused, i was a little surprised by your last sentance. you want to take her out but it's not in your schedule. maybe in the next week or so. i'm thinking you should do it now, tonight. if you don't maybe the om will. i suspect there is more to what you were saying than just what i understood, i hope. i suggest you take to one of those fun places, like a sports bar where there's is lots of laughter and people having fun. pick up a couple of good jokes and tell them and get some laughs. women love men that can make them and others laugh. i wonder what would happen if you arranged for an attractive woman to come by and set a little too closely, to talk and laugh with you a little too long. it might rise your stock value. anyway, good luck.

Or maybe take her somewhere she might like to go. My ex never really liked sports bars, but she liked theater. I'm sure you could just ask her where she wants to go.<P>I wouldn't try making her jealous. Especially if there is another man. (I don't recall you mentioning that before. Is that true or is that a typo in frankie's message?) If that is the case (I hope not), it'll just give him one more way to offer her emotional support when she goes to tell him all about how awful it was. <P>In any case, just keep being a really nice guy, good father, good husband, number one fan, and supporter. Sooner or later she will see you differently. It almost worked for me.<BR>

Nonpulsed...<P> May I ask how long you have been divorced? And was it mutal? You said in your last response it almost worked for you. Can you explain that more detailed? My husband was asked to whoo me again when we went to thereapy together. Well all he said when gave suggestions was he felt like he was being graded or tested. So he never tryed. Well he never new how to whoo in the first place so no way he knows how now. Anyways to late for that to me. We live like seperate lives around here. And I cannot do that much longer. I see to many married people live like that because its comfortable to them. Well not this girl. I want to feel in love again someday and not sure if thats in the cards for me or not but I am hoping so. I pray for help to lend me a hand from God but so far nothing. You know the saying when one door closes another one opens. Well I have yet to see that in 2 years since all this crap started with us. Life is to damn short to have to live like that I think. Funny I always thought for years I had a good marriage. Well was I ever wrong. I just wish I would have opened my eyes earlier to what was going on. Guess like alot of us we think thats the way it is. Well NOT found that out the hard way. Can you tell I have alot of bitterness inside me. I am trying to get over it but its very hard for me. I said I can forgive for the verbal abuse but I will never forget it. Well hope to hear some more responses on this forum as been reading and keeping up with it everyday. Thanks for listening to me again.

Nonpulsed...<P> May I ask how long you have been divorced? And was it mutal? You said in your last response it almost worked for you. Can you explain that more detailed? My husband was asked to whoo me again when we went to thereapy together. Well all he said when gave suggestions was he felt like he was being graded or tested. So he never tryed. Well he never new how to whoo in the first place so no way he knows how now. Anyways to late for that to me. We live like seperate lives around here. And I cannot do that much longer. I see to many married people live like that because its comfortable to them. Well not this girl. I want to feel in love again someday and not sure if thats in the cards for me or not but I am hoping so. I pray for help to lend me a hand from God but so far nothing. You know the saying when one door closes another one opens. Well I have yet to see that in 2 years since all this crap started with us. Life is to damn short to have to live like that I think. Funny I always thought for years I had a good marriage. Well was I ever wrong. I just wish I would have opened my eyes earlier to what was going on. Guess like alot of us we think thats the way it is. Well NOT found that out the hard way. Can you tell I have alot of bitterness inside me. I am trying to get over it but its very hard for me. I said I can forgive for the verbal abuse but I will never forget it. Well hope to hear some more responses on this forum as been reading and keeping up with it everyday. Thanks for listening to me again.

I'll try and answer your questions as best I can. I am not divorced yet. I am separated. I was "kicked" out of our house on Dec. 5, so that makes it 5 months. Seems much longer though. No, it was not mutual. I have not ever heard of a "mutual" divorce. I think dumpers sometimes say things were mutual because they feel it paints the situation in a better light.<P>Yes, I can tell you are angry. I don't know anything about your marriage, but I wonder how you went from thinking it was a good marriage to being that angry. And I can see why you don't "feel in love", that would be very difficult when angry.<P>What I meant by "almost" worked is that I tried very hard, even while separated and she was being quite cruel, to learn to treat her with dignity. I even got her a nice mother's day card just a few days ago. I looked after the kids late when she wanted to go out, and then would go sleep at my friend's. I fixed up things around the house for her, when I wasn't even allowed to live there anymore. I said understanding things about her while she was telling everybody what a [censored] I was. I actually accepted all the blame for the relationship failure! Gave her a nice Christmas present too. I begged for counselling, but she said that would not be helpful as the problem was me and not her. So I went to counselling by myself. (It was helpful anyway.)<P>Well, in the end she started acting a little less hostile towards me. I was thinking another year of this and she might be reasoned with again. Unfortunately, someone else noticed how I was treating my ex, despite how I was being treated, and she liked it (amongst other things). So now I am exploring a new relationship. I am trying very hard to continue to treat my ex civilly, and it is working. But I'm no longer doing it to save our failed relationship. It takes two to do that, and my ex is steadfastly against the idea.<P>I hope she doesn't change her mind. Sometimes when one door closes, it just closes.<BR>

I really wanted to take her out, it wasn`t my schedule that couldn`t change, it was her`s. As for the OM I don`t really think there is one. She told me that there wasn`t and she wouldn`t have anything to loose by telling me the truth, but you never really know. I tried to kiss her goodbye this morning and she pulled away and said no. I just shrugged it off and said goodbye and left but it really crushed me. We have been getting along so good. It really bothered me at first but the more I think about it maybe she just isn`t ready. That doesn`t take away from the way we have been getting along lately. Thanks for everyone`s thoughts. Maybe I`m just getting ahead of myself, I hope.