delete post<p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited May 23, 2001).]

It seems right now my life is just one crisis after another. I need help with this!!<P>Br, I will study and print out what you wrote me until I can buy that book. Is it available only through Al-Anon?<P>I will join a group after I leave.<P>Please guys help me here. Where is he coming from? What is he asking of me?<P>He cried for so long last night while I read it. Made me promise him I wouldnt hate him for it.<P>He also said "it took us years to destroy this, it will takes years to.....well I dont think it can ever be fixed Dara. " I said I believe, I know it can. He cried harder.<P>He will be home in about two hours...Help!!!

ps<P>He is coming home in a couple hours to talk to me..I dont know what to say to him. Because I dont know what he is asking from me.

Wow...<P>That is an eerie letter for me to read...simply because quite a bit of it could have been written by my ex. Word-for-word. Especially the part about not wanting to hurt you further but just can't seem to help himself.<P>I sense confusion on his part...I don't think HE knows what he wants...he has obvious conflicting emotions and loyalties.<P>I like your response...it doesn't judge or drag him down...it simply asks for clarification of what his intent or meaning is. Don't be surprised, though, if he's unable to answer right now.<P>I forget you're current situation (he's moved out and then moved back home?)...if he's home again...I think this is an opening to start the healing process by getting ALL the cards out on the table...if he's not home, I'm not so sure...<P>Keep us posted.<P>Lisa

He tried to respond, but then erased it. <P>He has been living with me since D day. I am moving to TX next month, and he is going as well own his own choice, dosnt want to be away from the kids.<P>I dont know what he is asking of me? To forgive him? <P>He also said after I readit that he knows his heart. Always has. And he said in the letter he is in love with her.<P>JL, NB, Br, Orchid OVrC's, come one come all. Please help me!!<P>I dont know what to say to him in a bit!!

Dara,<P>He is very confused, you know that. But I think you fell short in your letter. You asked all of the right questions, but you didn't tell him what was in your heart. You need to do this without qualifying it by bringing up his failings and what he must do.<P>If you forgive him, you do. It isn't predicated on his forgiving you. Dara, you haven't loved him unconditionally before. You always threatened to leave if things didn't go your way. If you love him undconditionally now, you need to explain to him what has changed, why you feel this way.<P>He needs hope that you true have and can change. He found someone he could talk with that didn't threaten him. He found someone that didn't take something away if he were honest.<P>Finally, Dara you need to understand something. I suspect that losing the children as he will, is hurting him as well. This is good for you in that it may give you another chance to help him rebuild the marriage.<P>Dara, what is your vision of a great marriage?? Now would be the time to understand that vision and tell Richard about it, especially if it included him. <P>He needs hope and he needs help. <P>I suspect that this woman isn't his soulmate so much as the first person in years to whom he could let out all of his pain, talk of his feelings, his fears and not be judged. Indeed, she probably is attracted to him for his pain, his sensitivity, and his honesty. Now it is easier for her to hear all of this, just as it is easier for me to give you advice, I am not emotionally involved in the relationship.<P>This is a very seductive trap, but realize this Dara: He is aware of your pain, but he needs to deal with his right now. You need to address his pain, not yours right now. Yours is recent, while his has been festering for many years. I have every confidence that if he heals he will help heal you.<P>He needs you to give unconditionally not just love unconditionally Dara. That will be hard for you, given your past. You are used to protecting yourself and taking care of yourself first. Here you will have to avoid doing that.<P>Please think about this. He is at a crisis point and the duality of his letter clearly shows it. It is as if it is written by two different people, and it is. You are seeing his soul Dara, he is torn.<P>Sorry, I couldn't offer you any better advise, but I hope this helps.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

JL,<P>I am grateful you responded. I did show him a little of what was in my heart, after I read it I just held him, and told him I still love him. I had also just finished working 16 hours straight on two hours sleep.<P>I agree, that the OW was the first person who came along who gave him compassion. Too much of a coincidence to be his 'soulmate'. That somehow comforts me.<P>Yes he is hurting about losing the kids right now. He is a great dad.<P>I want to help him with this. I dont know how though. How to do it without pressuring him. I dont know if showing him the love I feel for him regardless of the circumstance is the right way to do it.<P>I also wanted to talk to him today about asking him where he wants to live in TX. To give him the option of living with me if he choses. That might be an important step towards letting him know I accept him even though he feels so low right now.<P>With everything going on, I feel stunned. I dont know if I have the words to say to him right now that will help.

Sorry, I have no advise!<P>Just a ((((((((((DARA)))))))))))

Hi sweetie,<P>Here's what I think you should do: write another letter. Get the prettiest stationery you can find, and write this one phrase very big.<P>I LOVE YOU UNCONDITIONALLY.<P>Just that. <P>Dara, you said volumes with that one sentence, and then you explained, defended, and sifted through (which is all good when you have the time to do that - but remember, you don't have time, you're moving soon). <P>I still maintain that you LOVE your H and that he LOVES you... but you're both so darned afraid and stubborn that you can't get beyond it.<P>You are so wise, dear Dara, and have already learned so much here. I see it every time you answer someone!<P>This is YOUR LIFE, YOUR MARRIAGE, YOUR FAMILY... do you want it back??<P>If so, GRAB IT and DON'T LET GO. No matter what he says.<P>(((((Dara)))))

Dara,<P>You are tired and probably not really ready to deal with all of this, but you must.<P>So what I would do is.<P>1. Do as you suggested give him the option of staying with you.<P>2. Hold him, hug him, and tell him you love him. (That by the way, is a line from an old song, but it is true. )<P>3. Tell him about how you have changed and why. (You are growing up, and you are realizing things about yourself. I would tell him of your conversations with BR, I think they are giving you new insights about yourself. He needs to hear that you are working on yourself. That you don't expect him to change, but rather you want to change yourself.)<P>4. Finally, and most importantly get him talking and let him talk. Don't judge, correct, interpret, or question, no "yes but's", Just listen to him. She did this and look what happened. You must understand one thing, Dara, no matter how angry he is, no matter how down he is, he isn't trying to hurt you. If he says something hurtful, understand that it wasn't meant that way, just learn from it and throw the rest away.<P>Dara, I feel this will work out. You are growing and maturing. He is finally letting out all that he has held in for all of these years. The man sounds like a good man to me, trust that he will do his best to do the right thing. You can deal with it, so act from confidence. You can hear all of his pain and you can still love him.<P>So hang in there Dara, this is where he finds out the kind of woman he is married to. I think he is in for a surprise. <P>God Bless,<P>JL

Thanks Sheryl,<P>For the pep talk. Yeah I have grown a hell of alot here lately. Hasnt been easy, but thanks to my friends here I have come to realize so much about myself. <P>Did you read my post, on page three of my last post? Written at 2 AM?<P>So much is going on in my life right now.<P>BR has helped me to understand where my control issues are coming from.<P>How to realte my changes to H letting him know I am sincere I dont know.<P>At this point I dont even know what to say to him.<P>I dont even know if he wants to talk about what he told me any further.

Jl,<P>In my fragmented disjointed state what I needed was a specific plan. You did it, thank you.<P>It surprised me, what you said about listening. And what happened between them when she just listened and understood.<P>It REALLY sucks to hear him say that he loves her. Indescibable pain.<P>We didnt talk about much this am, I did ask him if he was still planning on moving. I was afraid that the point of this letter for me was to tell me he couldnt leave her. It terrified me to think that.<P>But, he said he is still going. He also said that he is having trouble in school concentrating d/t his depression.<P>This comes from a man that a few years ago told me depression is BS. Its just a frame of mind that only weak people cannot escape. He has told me before he felt responsible for my depression a few years back. That he tried so hard to make me happy, but it must not have been good enough. I have since reassured him that he had nothing to do with it. If anything he just prevented it from getting worse by loving me as he did.<P>I will write more tonight to let you know how today goes.<P>With Loving Gratitude,<P>Dara

Dara,<P>Yes, I just now went and read that posting. I come from a family history of addiction and my mother's dad was a raging alcoholic and abuser from way back. These things have a habit of touching us even waaay after the fact. And you have to deal with this DAILY and with your parents. <P>I am so sorry!!<P>Dara, I still see you as growing, learning, and doing very, very well, considering. You are a kind spirit with a heart of gold, and you have so much potential. Now you are learning (from BR, most of all) about the addictions and how they effect you and your family. You have so much hope!<P>The one thing that did stand out from your post: Richard was right not to try to talk sense into your dad. He wouldn't hear it... you know this. That doesn't mean Richard doesn't love you, it means he's afraid, or nervous, or just doesn't want to get involved with that. <P>I don't know what to tell you about your parents... you've tried to "get away" from the situation, and yet they are still in your life. I know how that is, truly. I just don't know what to tell you about how to stop it.<P>I do understand you Dara. A LOT!! <P>(((((Dara)))))<BR>

Sheryl,<P>It is almost comforting to me to know that there is a reason for my behavior. That I am not some evil controlling person..<P>Thank you for the compliments...they mean so much to me Sheryl.<P>Buying and studying that book I am sure will help me learn alot.<P>Love To You,<P>Dara

Dara, just want you to know that I am here, i just popped in for a second. I've got a serious emergency with a client who has an active virus ruining her computer, and I'm swamped. I'll respond more later.<P>((((((hugs)))))) None of this is about you not being worthwhile or loveable. Don't answer your phone if he is harrassing you right now, ok?<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BrambleRose:<BR><B>Dara, just want you to know that I am here, i just popped in for a second. I've got a serious emergency with a client who has an active virus ruining her computer, and I'm swamped. I'll respond more later.<P>((((((hugs)))))) None of this is about you not being worthwhile or loveable. Don't answer your phone if he is harrassing you right now, ok?<P>Thank you BR. I hope you read the first part of this post before I deleted it. If not I'll update you later. H is coming home in a sec. You have been a life saver to me BR.<P>Words cannot express my gratitude.<P>Dara<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

Hi Dara,<P>It's late, and I'm wiped out. It was not a great day. I have a cold, the baby has a cold, and as I mentioned before, there was a major disaster with a client. <P>I hope every one of you MB people has antivirus software installed and updated - AND all the security patches for your OS installed!!! What I dealt with today was mostly annoying, not destructive, but geeeeeez!!!<P>Anyway, Dara, no, I didn't get to read your original post on this thread. <P>The book I quoted to you is "From Survival to Recovery" and is an Al-Anon book, you can get it at your local Al-Anon Literature Distribution Center (Call your local Al-Anon Information Service and ask). You CAN order it through Amazon, but it takes them 4-6 weeks to ship it. You are better off just going to your LDC and getting it yourself, it will be much cheaper too!!<P>It sounds to me as if your father is upset because you drew a boundary with him, refusing to go along with his lies, games, and fraud. When you stop participating in maintaining that "comfortable environment for unacceptable behavior", the addict generally reacts the way you father is doing now. They will bully, beg, grovel and yank every string you have to get you to go back to participating. <P>Once you recognize that, it becomes easier to keep that boundary in place. He's making threats Dara, because you stopped enabling him. That just means that YOU are healthier!!! <P>Remember the Detaching with Love thread that I started? Can you go back and read it?? Apply those principles to your situation with your parents. And do not forget that THEIR truths do not have to be YOUR truths. Just because they say or think something about you....doesn't make it true. <P>I know you are trying to face a great deal of fear. If you can, write those fears down. Look those fears head on, and name them, on paper. Fear of abandonment, fear of not being good enough, fear of someone finding out what a fraud you are, fear of letting anyone else have any power over any part of your life, etc. Written down on paper...such fears lose a great deal of their power.<P>Talk back to those fears. You ARE good enough. You ARE loveable. You ARE a wonderful woman Dara, and your H is very lucky to be married to you, whether he knows it or not.<P>Get yourself to an Al-Anon meeting. I bet there are meetings every night of the week near you. Go!! And if you can, get a counselor or therapist for yourself, (Good suggestion JL!) someone to talk to one on one about these things. <P>Want to read the Promises of Al-Anon? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If we willingly surrender ourselves to the spiritual discipline of the Twelve Steps, our lives will be transformed. We will become mature, responsible individuals with a great capacity for joy, fulfillment and wonder. Though we may never be perfect, continued spiritual progress will reveal to us our enourmous potential. <B>We will discover that we are both worthy of love and loving. We will love others without losing ourselves, and will learn to accept love in return.</B> Our sight, once clouded and confused, will clear and we will be able to perceive reality and recognize truth. Courage and fellowship will replace fear. We will be able to risk failure to develop new, hidden talents. Our lives, no matter how battered and degraded, will yield hope to share with others. <B>We will begin to feel and come to know the vastness of our emotions, but we will not be slaves the them. </B> Our secrets will no longer bind us in shame. As we gain the ability to forgive ourselves, our families , and the world, our choices will expand. With dignity we will stand for ourselves, but not against out fellows. Serenity and peace will have meaning for us as we allow our lives and the lives of those we love to flow day by day with God's ease, balance and grace. No longer terrified, we will discover we are free to delight in life's paradox, mystery and awe. We will laugh more. <B>Fear will be replaced by faith</B>, and gratitude will come naturally as we realize that our Higher Power is doing for us what we can not do for ourselves.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>(((((hugs)))))<P>I wish I had more wisdom for you Dara. You have found the problem, and I have shown you my solution. Now it's up to you to choose what you will do!!<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Ok, I'm soooooooooooo late on this thread and I missed the letter your H wrote to you. But, I can totally relate to the devastation you must be feeling about what he said about loving her... That would finish me (I think).<P>BR has some excellent points here about facing your fears, writing them down. I too can relate to your finally sourcing out your controlling behavior and how it relates to your family of origin.<P>So, can you let me in a little more on what's going on since you've deleted your original post! I'm so sorry about your pain. You definitely need some sleep - and a long hot bath!<P>Write soon and please forgive me... I wasn't online much today.<P>ps - BR - what virus software should I get? I just deleted (or uninstalled) my existing Norton Antivirus - it wasn't letting me get my updates - and want to purchase the 2001 version or shall I go with MacAfee? And what were you saying about the OS security patches...? Could you start another post about this...? Just inform us!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>This is a very seductive trap, but realize this Dara: He is aware of your pain, but he needs to deal with his right now. You need to address his pain, not yours right now. Yours is recent, while his has been festering for many years. I have every confidence that if he heals he will help heal you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is an unbelievable insight that TS made. Ok, since we're both dealing with men who basically have integrity... how does she best go about HELPING him address his pain - and stay away from dealing with her own pain - waiting for him to help?<P>TS you say:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So what I would do is.<P>1. Do as you suggested give him the option of staying with you.<P>2. Hold him, hug him, and tell him you love him. (That by the way, is a line from an old song, but it is true. )<P>3. Tell him about how you have changed and why. (You are growing up, and you are realizing things about yourself. I would tell him of your conversations with BR, I think they are giving you new insights about yourself. He needs to hear that you are working on yourself. That you don't expect him to change, but rather you want to change yourself.)<P>4. Finally, and most importantly get him talking and let him talk. Don't judge, correct, interpret, or question, no "yes but's", Just listen to him. She did this and look what happened. You must understand one thing, Dara, no matter how angry he is, no matter how down he is, he isn't trying to hurt you. If he says something hurtful, understand that it wasn't meant that way, just learn from it and throw the rest away.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How does one go about dealing with the time factor... it has taken years for him to get to this point... how long will it take for him to get out of it... what is she meant to do in the meantime with her life?<P>And what you said about the OW not being the soulmate but the first oxygen he's breathed in years that would fill his lungs in terms of being <I>HEARD</I>! Wow,... this is incredible insight here Dara... I hope you can save or print this and read it when you get your head cleared a bit... maybe while you're in the bathtub!<P>OK, now I need to go find the other thread about the source of your control... man, I don't know how you all navigate so well when there is just so much heartbreak going on in this message board! I get lost and forget something and then it comes back to me when I'm at the gym or grocery store... it's crazy! Bear with me please... I'm also trying to cope with officially being a single mother.<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once<p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited May 23, 2001).]

Thinking of you today. I hope that you are OK. Please let us know how things went.<P>Love, Bill<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-