...on the video I got back from the PI today. Two weeks of espionage, I mean surveillance captured in about 20 minutes. Oh gosh, she is cute, cute, cute, just the All American/Apple Pie girl. She must be 27, no more than 30 to my husband's almost 48. She is petite, long blonde hair with bangs, blue jeans and tight tops (just like he likes them). Hands all over each other, making out big-time, touchie-feelie, tender brush of the cheek, giggles and blushes--just the picture of two people in love. The beginning part of the video, they went everywhere in his old, nasty Ford Exploder. Then, she gives the keys over to her beautiful new mini-van. Big mistake there, toots. He looks over his shoulder a lot when he gets out of the car, and he finger combs his hair in the rear view mirror while checking out the scene back there. And there's alcohol, tons of it. Everywhere they went they drank. I guess she doesn't know he's an alcoholic. Neither did I when we first met. This little girl looks like me when I was still fertile and perky. Oh man, is she in for it. So naive, so innocent. My husband managed to take control of my car, too early on. He had a crappy Camaro, and I had a brand-new Nissan 200SX--eff me dead red color. She has a very nice house compared to this ghetto, and my husban's dinky apartment. I had a big, beautiful furnished apartment and he was living with his mother when we first met. Yeah, he's an alcoholic manipulator, very narcisstic, very charming. I'm sure he's weedling his way into her life like he did mine. Yes, it's tempting to say something, but I'm not. My dad called me and told me to let her find out on her own. Really is a shame. He'll take over, take advantage, then take control. He'll bark out orders and look like he's contributing so much when he's not at all. Smoke screen. A master at deception. Jeeze, this freaks me out. My intellect knows this guy is a user-loser, a [censored] of a man. My stupid emotions still pine for him, still want him to change and love me and be my husband. I may need to go in for electroshock treatments.<P>Zzzzzzzzttt,<BR>Nell<P>P.S. I had surveillance done to establish his affair, the spending of marital assets, and the wonton use of alcohol with driving (child visitation issues). In all, I really didn't get much other than a little woo-woo and a big bill.

Maybe it's that I'm a guy, but why does a woman seem to melt with nice words? Are they completely communication driven?<P>The OM that my XW is with is a smooth SOB, I'll give him that.<P>What is the deal? Are women driven by words the same way that men are driven by sex? Loco?

Well no, I don't think we're "driven" by communication per se. It's just that our neural communication center is one huge, blood-engorged tumor. Ya wanna have a good time [nudge, nudge], then talk schweet to me, schweetie! I know with my STBX, it's the perception of empathy mixed with words that is alluring. He has no flippin' idea how anyone feels, much less himself for that matter. He knows his cues, and he acts on command to get what he wants. Now, that's him; that's not all men. Not everyone is numbed emotionally from alcoholism. I understand there are some very nice, handsome men out there with a large vocabulary and a wide range of interests. At least, that's what I've heard. <P>Talk's cheap,<BR>Nell

Charm, allure, someone who makes them feel special. It is pathetic. I bet he makes her feel special--for now. My ex is also with a young one, though he is only 26 and she 18. He is also an alcoholic, irresponsible liar. She is really young and naive. She thinks she is getting a great catch because he is in touch with his feminie side. He is a sensitive, intriguing artist. Honestly, he is a woman's dream come true. He even said to me once "I know what women want and I give it to them. THat is why they like me, I guess." Uggh.

OK ladies, so you are still missing your ex, it's normal. I even miss mine on bad days. I miss the safety I felt in marriage, even if it was a lie, I didn't know it when it felt good.<P>There are men out there that lie and manipulate to get the women, but there also genuine good guys. You both deserve better (me too) and they ARE out there. <P>My exH is with someone younger, not much, I'm 28, she was 24 when this happened, but still, it was enough to bother me. Then I saw her UP CLOSE and she wasn't as cute as I thought. She's definetly high maintenance and when the fake nails and hair dye come off, and the gobs of makeup, I'm sure she's even NASTIER!<P>Nell I give you a lot of credit for watching that tape,...ughh.<P>FO1 - I'm a sucker for a sweet talker. Probably because of my need for conversation and affection. I'm not saying to be other than yourself, but it does make women feel good to have someone pay attention to her, say sweet things, and make her feel special. Especially from someone after they've been betrayed, or for some reason, coming from someone older than them. Human nature I guess.<P>Dana

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DanaB:<BR><B><BR>...I'm a sucker for a sweet talker. Probably because of my need for conversation and affection. I'm not saying to be other than yourself, but it does make women feel good to have someone pay attention to her, say sweet things, and make her feel special. Especially from someone after they've been betrayed, or for some reason, <I>coming from someone older than them</I>. Human nature I guess.<P>Dana</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The hair on the back of my neck naturally raises at the term "sweet talker". I've always associated it with manipulation. I prefer to consider myself as possessing effective communication skills, wit and charm <P>But of interest to me is the "older than them" comment. At 41, I've wondered what an appropriate age range for me to consider is. I know there's no arbitrary "right" age for anyone. (although early 20's would probably be a bit out there ) And what is it that women find attractive about "older" guys? Maturity? Experience? <P>I'm finding myself more and more interested in finding to spend some time with. I feel I've waited more than long enough for any chance of reconcilliation and my heart feels healed enough for me to start thinking that someday I'd like to take the chance on someone again.<P>I think that trust is earned gradually over time. If I ever have a "next" relationship, it is going to require very direct conversations regarding what we are and are not comfortable with. A biggie for me is going to be no "private" time with members of the opposite sex, and a willingness on both our parts to explore new recreational activities. Absolute honesty and communication are going to be paramount, as well as an understanding that love is a living entity that requires constant care and attention. Forever.<P>Now, I just need to find one of those...<P><BR>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited May 24, 2001).]

Nick,<P>at 43, my range was +2/3 to -5. why don't us just browse around on <A HREF="http://www.matchmaker.com," TARGET=_blank>www.matchmaker.com,</A> and get an idea on what is out there, I did and there are lots of different types of expression, wants, etc. its very interesting just to get a read on the other gender's wishes.<P>I was contacted by one person, 4 states away, and after looking at her picture, and description, just deleted her email. But there is a questionaire to answer which is free form, and gives you hope that there are woman that you will find are attractive in thought/write, but others are just asking for the world, oxymoronic desires, <B> open, but private </B> etc. there is a free trial period, and that's what i did last summer, i subscribed for a year, but have not been contacted by anyone, and that is fine. I will let the subscription expire in another month.<P>It just gives you ideas on what to think about and look for, listening to the words and thoughts.<P>BTW, you are very literate and communicative. That should be high on your list of requirements. having been with a non communicator, i need the interaction, and discussion. I have years to catch up on. Plus, using POJA, works very well, and we like it. X hated it. I plan to use it forever. Plus, i realize where i did occassionally not provide a safe environment for discussion, but that was also broken down from X's verbal attacks, and manipulation.<P>just remember, it is very easy to get lit up at first, and you need to almost throw away the first one, as you will be over compensating for your loss.<P>good luck <P>

<<Nell I give you a lot of credit for watching that tape,...ughh.>><P>The blood has now returned to my major organs, and I am no longer running on limbic fuel. I can now call my sister and say, "Eeeeeeeeew! [hysterical laughter] I saw him shove his tongue down her throat!" [screaming with hands over mouth]<P>I can get a teensy bit beyond my malignant attachment and see this sphincter for what he is--a dookiebutt. Ya know what he wants? He wants her car. Why, he's already chauffering themselves all over town on their dates. And, he wants her house. I just know it. That's his MO; after 14 years, I know how he works. And you know what else? I kinda, yes I'm sure I feel a bit sorry for her, 'cuz she don't know what she's in for. She's gonna lose it all, self-esteem to boot unless she has any to steer herself away. And from what I saw, she is blinded by love, admiration, and his affection. Gosh, this happened fast!<P>So, enough about him. I wanna tell him what I know. He is being so hostile to me, I guess to keep me from finding out. He HATES it is anyone gets one up on him, especially through surveillance and espionage . Yeah, I'm thinking revenge. This will pass, for a while. Then it will rear its ugly head and I will battle temptation once more. Ut-oh...back to him again. Hmmm...today I'm filling out blankety-blank-blank divorce forms. Jeepers, they want the kitchen sink, don't they? How did I get to feeling so chipper? Maybe mood swinging again. Will leave off now until I have something worthwhile to share, or I think up another funny paragraph.<P>Well, I think I'm funny ,<BR>Nell<BR>

Nell, i think you are a riot! keep it coming! i love humorous writing and wit!<P>yep, keep on going and don't look back!<P>and don't give in! i have a similar manipulator, and it can be hard, but keep the strength.<BR>

<BR>Nell,<P>That opening post is a classic! <P>Bystander

Nell..<P>Sorry for my Bluntness, but why would you still have feelings for your husband who you caught "red handed" with another women? I am a BS myself, and I have worked very hard everyday of my marriage to keep my marriage healthy. I don't understand how women who have husbands like yours actually still "love" their husbands when they engage in mind blowing stupidity. I am sorry for being totally honest with you, but guys like your husband are NOT real men!<P>Take Care and Good Luck!<P><BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by c00ker:<BR><B> <BR>But of interest to me is the "older than them" comment. At 41, I've wondered what an appropriate age range for me to consider is. I know there's no arbitrary "right" age for anyone. (although early 20's would probably be a bit out there ) And what is it that women find attractive about "older" guys? Maturity? Experience? <P><BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>It's starts in jr. high school...guys our own age are dorks I give you my EX as Exhibit A...<P>Seriously, (okay I know <B>ME</B> using that word is somewhat oxymoronic...)but I think some of it is societal conditioning...I know I would feel a bit uncomfortable dating a guy younger than me...wouldn't want to worry about being called his mother or something ...but I also believe it's about life experience and the wisdom that comes with it, feeling like the guy could "take care" of you, feeling like he's old enough to know what he wants in life and is done with trying to figure it out, and I'm sure there are more reasons I could explain if given time.<P>I don't think it's necessarily a conscious effort...like "Hey, baby, can I see your driver's license to check your age...?" I just think it's about attraction and feedback...<P>...and I agree with DanaB...we chicks are suckers for the guys who can communicate "sweet nothings..."<P>Lisa<P><P>------------------<BR>I am woman...hear me roar...okay - meow...okay - purr? Hey, I'm working on it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nell:<BR><B><BR>I can get a teensy bit beyond my malignant attachment and see this sphincter for what he is--a <I>dookiebutt</I>. Ya know what he wants? He wants her car.... <P>...Well, I think I'm funny ,<BR>Nell</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ROTHLMAO!!!! dookiebutt???? <P>IIRC she drives a mini-van? What kind of guy drools over a mini-van? Might as well be sport-ute, or, God forbid, a station wagon...<BR> <BR> hee hee hee<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

Nick - OK sweet talker could be referred to as manipulative, how about someone sweet, sensitive and a good communicator? Better?<P>As to the age comment, I guess it's what you feel comfortable with. I'm 28, and while I was 27, the oldest I dated was 35. Although I know some guys in late thirties, or @41 that I think are sweeties. I can't say what it is, except for maybe a different level of maturity, past that "out with the guys stage", past that commitment phobia stage, usually set in a career, usually more willing to settle stage. Now as I say that I also realize a few guys that age actually leave their wives at the same age, so it frightens me a little, but I guess thats' just maybe a reason as to why.<P>My bf now is the same age as me, and I tease him because when we met as friends, I told him I wouldn't date anyone younger than 34 anymore. He always asks me what made me change my mind. Well for his case, he's got the salt and pepper color starting and that did it for me, plus a huge amount of chemistry!<P>But back to Nell, sorry to change the subject, your post was very good. You seemed to handle it well without being too horrified of it. I just like to think of...what comes around goes around. He'll get what he has coming to him.<P>Hang in there. Hugs, Dana<BR>

<<Sorry for my Bluntness, but why would you still have feelings for your husband who you caught "red handed" with another women?>><P>BJK,<P>Woman? Try women, and men. I think the politically correct term is, codependent. There is a great disparity between what my intellect knows versus my emotions. Ours was an alcoholic marriage. I got sober, he didn't. He grew more and more hostile as I woke up to his manipulations and control. I wish I didn't have feelings for this wienerhead, but I do. I know in time they will ebb to near nothing. Until then, I wallow when I have to, and take shots when I don't. I guess it's just my way of dealing with my loss, my death of a dream. Wish healing was a linear process. I take comfort in the knowledge that his schlong has its attention elsewhere so I can heal (it's horrible to get pulled back in, thrown back out, pulled back in...well, unless you're the schlong itself [blushing]). So, I know I'll get through this. I'm medicated.