On my way to work this AM I saw a friend driving the other way, whom I have not seen in a few weeks. As he was passing he told me to put on a specific radio station. You see my friend has in the past year gone through a divorce as well. The radio show was one of the pastors who preaches on the AM band of the radio. I have heard him before and I like his style.<P>Today the message was about "the family" and how family values so often take the backseat anymore in this world of "getting ahead at all costs". He mentioned how the phrase "family man" used to mean so much years ago, but now it often brings distaste from those who are in this break-neck speed corporate world.<P>But it was his final message that came across just as I got to work this AM. He hesitated as he said it, knowing that their were so many people listening that have gone through it or are going through it. But he said that does not mean that it should not be conveyed - so he said "God hates divorce". For some reason those words struck me upside the head. While I know that my divorce was in no way my doing or my choice, the fact still remains that I am divorced. I know God does not hate me or my wife, but I know that no matter how you look at it, we both let Him down.<P>It struck an even deeper cord, knowing that tomorrow is the first date (blind date) that I will be going on since my wife left (over a year ago).<P>I guess what I wanted to say here goes out to all of you who are on the fence - those of you who maybe feeling and thinking "I'm just not 'in-love'" anymore. Search your soul. Look for any glimmer of hope for your marriage. If and when you find one, cling to it and try your best to do all you can to save your marriage.<P>Divorce is not the answer. It does not get any easier on the "other side"...<P>God Bless.<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Oh Mike, was this a fire and brimstone kind of pastor? Zealots scare me; I think they're dangerous. YES, I think God hates divorce. God also hates for you to subject yourself to unrelenting marital misery. Were sacred vows broken? If so, maybe the marriage never existed (notice I said maybe). At least, that's what I was told by 2 clergy members of my church. Yeah, yeah I'm Catholic , but when you have priests telling you to bail, that should be a major cue (our priests are so smart about relationships, contrary to some beliefs). Of course, it took me over two years from that point to throw in the towel, giving me two extra years of distress and anguish. <P>Go on your date and have fun. You sound like a guy who knows where his heart is, and he follows it. And, I'll bet you tore that heart apart looking for answers to your problems when you saw you were headed for divorce. What a trauma, sweetie. Nobody wakes up in the morning, glib at the thought of severing their marriage. Well, most people don't I think. And you're right--leave no stone unturned in the quest for love and reconciliation. It should be a priority to fix the marriage. Thank you for your interesting thread.<P>Sneakin' past the confessionals,<BR>Nell<P>P.S. And that fence analogy--sometimes I think we have more power over our feelings than we're willing to admit.

Hi Mike... Although I hear ya, and hear God on how he "hates divorce" there are a lot of things God hates. How about this list: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><I>Proverbs 6:16</I> There are six things the Lord hates, seven that are detestable to him: <BR>* haughty eyes<BR>* a lying tongue<BR>* hands that shed innocent blood<BR>* a heart that devises wicket schemes<BR>* feet that are quick to rush into evil<BR>* a false witness who pours out lies<BR>* and a wo/man who stirs up dissension among brothers<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now, how's that for a list. I agree that one should be desparate about saving their marriage... but equally, we need to examine ourselves for all the things God hates and detests... we can't do any of this alone. We need the indwelling of Christ in our lives to make this happen. Otherwise we're just constantly chasing after the wind. So, my philosophy (for the moment) is to get a real grip on Plan A as a lifestyle... it makes you a better person in general and will help facilitate God's will in A) Loving HIM and B) Loving our neighbor as ourself.<P>Thanks for your thought...<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Nell,<P>I am Catholic as well. Unfortunately I am also one who thinks too much into things. I have spoken to a few priests who think that an anulment would be granted in my case. But is an anulment just another way that we humans have learned how to rationalize our actions? If you look to the Bible, Jesus is pretty clear on the matter - God hates divorce. But as Catholics we don't commit a sin by divorcing, the sin happens once we engage in activities that are adultress (like remarriage).<P>So following our religion and its rules would require that I remain single for the rest of my life unless there was someway I could reconcile with me wife. I fight with myself on the anullment issue daily.... Is an anullment just a Catholic's version of a divorce? In Canon Law it is not described as that, but in today's society I think there is a good argument that it has grown to be just that - a Catholic divorce.<P>Plus can I really go for an anullment - a process that nullify's my marriage, when I still do believe in that marriage? I mean I never stopped loving my wife - It was her decision to leave - to divorce. But for me, the marriage was worth saving.<P>On the other hand I am 30 years old and feel so drawn to start and have a family. It just has always felt that was what I was called to do.<P>Then there is the chance that even if I begin the anullment process, I may not be granted one - THEN what? Am I to cower every time I enter a church on Sunday mornings (if I get remarried)? Can I ever be forgiven for getting remarried if the sin is ongoing? To be forgiven by God does not take a lot - It requires your asking for forgiveness AND it requires your actions that prove you are sorry for the sin and are working to avoid that sin in the future.<P>As you can see I tend to drive myself batty with this subject That is why I am so adamant in telling people that it does not get any easier on the other end of a divorce - if anything the divorce just opens up all kinds of other issues (especially if you are Christian).<P>"What God has joined, let NO man put asunder"... That is pretty specific isn't it?<P>I just don't know..... <P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

"God also hates for you to subject yourself to unrelenting marital misery."<P>I hear this from so many people who have filed for divorce. With few exceptions, just about every person I've talked to who have gotten a divorce talk about how horrible their life was when they were married.<P>I'd really like to know what the rest of the world knows that we, as Americans, don't know about marriage. India has a less than 2% divorce rate. Even countries where you'd consider women to have pretty strong "rights" (like Sweden, France, England) have divorce rates that are at least HALF what ours are. <P>So, I ask myself, what is it about Americans and American culture that makes our marriages so detestable and "impossible" to stay in? Either a) we aren't raised with proper skills to maintain a marriage or b) we go into marriage with some pretty unrealistic assumptions. I think it is a combination of both.<P>sotired2000,<BR>I don't know how to answer your question. I honestly can't see me ever making a life-time commitment to another person, and I haven't figured out what else I am willing to live with (live-in serial monogamy, casual sex with strangers, etc). If I decide to have a family, it will be by myself. I think a stable, single parent is much better than a divorced household. Given the dismal success rates for multiple marriages (less than 25%), I won't put any future kid through that.<P>I've even considered moving to a different country and trying to figure out what their secret is. In Europe, family time is very important. Most have 5-6 weeks of vacation. Long lunches. Flex time. I guess going through a few wars and having the crap bombed out of them has changed their perspective on what is important. Sweden has, by far, the most family friendly work practices I've ever heard of anywhere.<P>Oh, and they have an "appreciation" for an experienced, older woman over there that is not widely found here. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 24, 2001).]

Mike,<P>Most annulments are granted because they deserve to be granted. No man can destroy a marriage that is held sacred and holy by the Lord. Only He can do that. A Catholic annulment is not a Catholic divorce. They (I'm assuming a panel of clergy) review your application and interview you. They contact your x-spouse and explain what you are doing to see if they have anything to add. If you are granted an annulment, so are they, regardless of their religion. All they are determining is if the marriage really EXISTED according to Catholic doctrine. My spouse broke every vow in the book, and he won't give a rat's pah-tootie that I've applied for an annulment, and I am pretty confident that I (we) will be granted one. He committed adultery numerous times and I have proof. He also engaged in bisexual acts, and I have proof for that too. I believe I read that you need to provide two witnesses for your case to be reviewed, and one of them can be your x-spouse. Seems to me I recall 3 months the magic waiting period.<P>Now, I know I may be preaching to the choir . I think Mike, that you should go ahead and apply. IF you are denied (and that's a big IF), you will be in no worse shape than you are now. And perhaps you will be able to appeal. And if you're denied, and you remarry, you're restricted from some sacraments, that's all. There are millions of divorced Catholics out there who have not been annuled, and who have remarried. Shoot, they have formed their own clubs and orgainizations within their parishes. Put the words, Catholic Annulment in a search engine. I'm sure I've left out a detail or two in my skeleton outline.<P>You are young. You should be enjoying a fruitful marriage based on scripture, love, and trust. Go for it, Mike .<P>Nell

Mike,<P>I totally understand and I too drive myself nuts with the "issues" brought up being a Christian and now divorced. I think I have finally forgiven myself and I know that the Lord has too. <P>I left this massively heavy burden at the Lord's feet, I just couldn't handle it anymore. I let go, and am thankful that in letting go, my heart never hardened toward my husband (oops XH). I have been dating a little(dating....uhg!) even a couple blind dates! I have to admit I felt very weird, and the whole dating thing is quite daunting. I do think it was good for me though. Don't stop living Mike, you have got a very good head on your shoulders and will do the right thing. Have a good time on your date! <BR>And stop beating yourself up!<P>Even though we are divorced now, I can't "close the door". However unhealthy that might look to outsiders, I know that I have grown tremendously and think I know what ultimately will be the best for me.<P>My X and I have been talking alot and I can say that reconciliation is a definate possibility. Alot of work ahead mind you, but what a wonderful possibility it is.<P>Sorry for kind of straying.<BR>Take care and God bless Mike,<BR>Petrie<P>

Hi Mike:<P>I'm going to stick my neck out with my opinions. <P>I don't really buy the whole "God hates divorce" thing. The civil government never had the power to bind me in a marriage - not in marriage such as I understand it. So since when does the government have the power to sever it?<P>Only under a sacrament, instituted by God, under His divine grace, is a permanent union between man, woman and God formed. Yeah, it takes 3, not 2, to make a marriage.<P>But in order to enter into such a serious covenant, certain conditions have to be present. If those conditions are not present, then the sacrament can not be formed. <P>An annullment tribunal simply investigates those conditions at the time the vows were taken, and tries to determine if the marriage actually occured. If it grants an annullment, it simply means that you are not bound by God to those vows. You certainly are free to keep that vow on your own however...<P>If an annullment is denied, then it means that the conditions were indeed met, that both parties were under full faculties, and had full understanding and willingness to participate in the marriage.<P>If indeed Mike, your marriage was ruled valid, then yes, you would be expected to remain true to your vows. For better or for worse...and that is truly the worse!! But that is a risk we take when we stand before God and make those promises.<P>An annullment doesn't mean you didn't mean your vows, or took them lightly. It means simply that we are human, we make mistakes and misjudgements. It means that God is a God of love, forgiveness and mercy. <P>I hope Jim (NSR) responds to your post, because he and I had a conversation about annulment once, and he had some very beautiful insights and understanding.<P>--BR<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Thank you all for your thoughts. I have done quite a bit of research over the past year on anullments and I do understand their function. My issues go a little deeper though - further than Canon law down to "did God really want an anullment process to be created?". This is definitely a philosophical debate that will have supporters on both sides. Yes I am thinking a lot into this, but I think it just goes to the depth of my marital vows - I truly would have died for my wife. That is how I was raised, that is what I have come to believe in - It is just who I am.<P>But this all seems to me like some sort of test by God. Kind of like He is saying "well Mike, you believe all these things and you talk a good game - what are you going to do now?"<P>Being honest with myself I know that I need to start dating again - for me. But the thought of getting serious again with someone does not just scare me from the whole relationship point of view, it causes me much concern from my religious beliefs.<P>I am not sure that even if I am granted an anullment, that it will ease my mind and conscience...<P>BTW: Nell, you are partly right with the process for an anullment - it is a process that goes to prove whether a true marriage under God ever really existed. BUT, it is not concerned with what was done WHILE you were married, it is more concerned with the mindset and state of affairs of both parties when they made their vows (for instance whether the person making the vow "until death do us part" really truly understood what that meant). Infidelity, alcoholism, abuse - while the Church looks down on them all, they are not necessarily grounds for an anullment. And while having witnesses helps the process along, you really don't have to have anyone else involved but yourself - the church makes all efforts to contact your spouse and will ask for witnesses, but they are not required.<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

TheStudent,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I think a stable, single parent is much better than a divorced household.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I couldn't agree with you more. There is nothing worse than growing up knowing your father (or mother) abandoned you after loving you (or pretending to) at one time. <P>And I am quite sure that there is no statement in the Bible concerning how God feels about subjecting yourself to "unrelenting marital misery."

Hey cool, Mike! C'mon down here and help me out with mine when the time's right! You obviously know more than I do about annulments (I knew I was preachin' to the choir). Hmmm...the mindset and state of what KIND of affairs at the time the vows were made, do you mean? Things that might distance one emotionally during the vows? What about bisexuality and other, less traditional sexual formats I was not made aware of prior to marriage? If my husband wilfully misrepresented himself prior to our wedding, and repeatedly committed adultery during our marriage, wouldn't that be grounds for an annulment? Why would God want me to stay married to a man like that, who has already exited my life to be with his next conquest? I'm hoping that God forgives my blind eye to my husband's past alcoholic sense of entitlement, and will not deny me an opportunity at happiness later. I don't want to believe God wants me to stay in divorce limbo, never to enjoy a committed relationship again. I was under the impression that, if 2 priests recommended divorce, I must be a good candidate for the annulment process. And well, I guess in my liturgical ignorance, I want to trust the men in the cloth to guide me in the right direction. I question so much in my life and have lost so much trust recently, that it's easier to agree with Catholic dogma than it is not to. I just hope I'm one of the sheep instead of a lemmings. Your thoughts and views are appreciated. Thanks so much.<P>Nell

Nell,<P>I have spoken with 3 different priests on the subject and ALL three gave conflicting advice in one area or another. The simple truth of the matter is that most Catholics (and priests) do not understand the anullment process. While priests will help get the process going, they have little duties once an anullment is underway (maybe that is why they don't know more about them). There is one book that I was referred to that really cleared things up for me (as far as for the technical aspects of an anullment) - It is called 100 Questions and Answers About Anullments (I think). I bought it off <A HREF="http://www.amazon.com" TARGET=_blank>www.amazon.com</A> for about $15 (money very well spent). It is written by a layperson who has studied and participated in the anullment process for quite a few years. The questions are all the common ones you usually hear and the answers are based upon the Canon Law (Catholic Law). It is for the most part an unbiased, just the facts look at anullments - a must read for anyone considering this processs.<P>Two things: If your husband was bisexual at the "time of your marriage" then that might be grounds (I really don't know for sure), but what ever happened AFTER you got married doesn't really pertain to the process. The second issues is about "who God wants us to stay married to" and I think that is whomever we marry. For He views marriage as a covenant, not just a promise. He never said it would be easy - He never said that we "deserve" happiness. In fact I sometimes think God feels it appropriate that there is UNhappiness in our lives - for only then are we able to truly open up and have faith in Him - believing in His power and love. I once read a book that spoke of there being two kinds of marriages - the ones that just seem to "click" no matter what. These two spouses get along always and there love is so apparent and they are blessed. Then there are marriages that are frought with problems and issues - often serious ones. These two spouses fight to keep their marriage and love alive day-in and day-out. AND they are blessed. The first type of marriage is meant to be a symbol of what is possible - something for all the troubled marriages to aspire to, while the second type of marriage is meant to be a sign to all those marriages that are doing great and that is to remember to be thankful for what you have and not to shirk your responsibility to help those less fortunate than you.<P>Look at families who have great kids - never into drugs, good students, grow up well-adjusted. Then there are the families who's kids just seemed to fall off the right track. I am referring to the families that do all the right things but for some reason their children stray.<P>God never promised us anything in this life, other than if we put our faith in Him, whatever happens, things will work out. <P>Just some thoughts for the day...<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

Mike,<P>Back on the topic of dating......I totally understand about how it conflicts with your religious beliefs. I went out on a few dates (w/people refer'd to me, no "pick-ups"). I really needed to get out a bit and I am glad I did. <P>The whole dating thing is quite daunting, and I really didn't do much before I got married. So, it is all new to me. What I have decided is that...SLOW... is the word. I make it and made it perfectly clear in a very nice way, that I can't do things before I feel I am ready. I have to admit, I was worried how I would approach this whole thing. Being a Christian and (how do I put this?) well, I am a young woman (you know what I mean). <P>You will do the right thing. <P>As you know, my XH and I are talking and seeing each other alot. Of course I am totally open to this and reconciliation. I have "maintained" on my dates, but not when it comes to my XH. It feels so right with him. I wonder if "that" is okay. Such inner struggles we go through in trying to do the right thing!!!!!!!!!!<P>I am going to talk to my Pastor on Sunday evening. I hope that my XH will start attending church with me again. Or even just by himself. He has said to me that in his effort to get back on track, he needs to get his spiritual life in order. <P>Your right Mike, if we put our faith in the Lord, things will work out. I think I am really starting to see this.<BR>You will too.<BR>Petrie<P>

Let me give you a link to sevaral messages you can listen to (the best I've heard so far) on the subject of marriage, divorce and re-marriage (each is about 25 minutes long). <P> <A HREF="http://oneplace.com/ministries/the_calvary_connection/Archives.asp" TARGET=_blank>http://oneplace.com/ministries/the_calvary_connection/Archives.asp</A> <P>(They are backwards order....starting with the most recent):<BR>5/22/2001 - Tuesday <BR>Divorce: Who Can Remarry? (Part II)<P>5/21/2001 - Monday <BR>Divorce: Who Can Remarry ? (Part I)<P>5/18/2001 - Friday <BR>Keep Marriage Pure <P>5/17/2001 - Thursday <BR>Divorce - When Is It Allowable? (Part II)<P>5/16/2001 - Wednesday <BR>Divorce - When Is It Allowable? (Part I)<P>5/15/2001 - Tuesday <BR>When the Bond is Severed (Part I)<P>5/14/2001 - Monday <BR>When the Bond is Severed (Part I)<P>We have to take the Bible as a whole and look at all that God said about any given subject to have the full picture. We can't just take one little scripture and ignore the others.<P>We will each have out own opinions and intrepretations of the Bible, but the more info, the better, I always think.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited May 25, 2001).]