Living with memories,<P>I'm pretty sure I did not take your statements out of context. As unpleasant as it might be to hear (read) your words repeated, they were written with "dating" in mind. I understand that the lawyer was talking from a legal standpoint. Even more reason to discount it. Just because it is quote-unquote "legal" doesn't mean it is good for you. Take a look at our pal Clinton. Theoretically, he did everything "legally" too and he didn't technically "cheat" either. <P>I've been celibate and have not dated for nearly two years. I'm not saying you should go through this and I'm not looking for a pat on the back either, but if you are interested, I could give you a long list of things to do that are fun and are fulfilling. There are lots and lots of safe things to do that will not put your (or another person's) emotional/moral health at risk at this time.<P>Indie,<BR>high-fives to you.<P>WilliamJ,<BR>well said too.<BR>

Cooker,<P>I don't think Indie was being venomous. He was asking a question. Why can't you wait until your divorce is final to date? And the answer is...because you don't feel like it and you don't consider it adultery. <P>'nuf said. Your values are different than his. <P>Indie,<BR>Trust me, we've been around this topic WAY too many times on this forum. It gets nowhere. Like I said on the other thread...we might as well be arguing about what flavor of ice-cream is better. You've gotten a taste of what it is like to go against the "whatever is good for you" flow around here though. BS get pretty much carte-blanche to do whatever they want before their divorce, as long as their spouse "cheats" first. Nice huh?<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 25, 2001).]

Me again...<P>sorry folks. I don't want to debate. Honest. When it comes right down to it, we all have to act according to our conscience and we all have to live with the consequences of our actions (good or bad).

c00ker take a pill man I was just asking you why you can't wait? that is all. the only venemon I have is for my STBX. I am choosing not to date any women until my divorce is final for one simple fact MY DAUGHTER!@! She is 4 years old and at a very influntial stage of her life and me running around with a different woman and her seeing on hearing me talk to her in my judgement is not good, sets the stage for bad morals. But now my STBX she will take our daughter on dates with her, maybe some of you women here can explain to me the thought process of that? Oh yeah I blew my stack when I found out my daughter went on a date, that is so freaking wrong!! The only thing the STBX said was it will not happen again, it should have never happened in the first d%%% place, especially seeing I offered to take my daughter that night.<P>Anyways I am not judging anyone I was just curious on what people's reasoning were to start the dating process before the divorce is final that is all. So I would be glad to here why or why not. My opinion it can make the divorce much more difficult, say your STBX is dating right now and then you start dating , then they get dumped who will they take there anger out on then, yep you because your happy and dating and they just basically want to be an a$$ about it.

Stu & Indie,<P>Yes, you do love to debate.<P>And disagreement makes you nasty.<P>Flex your internet muscles at me & I flex back.<P>Yes you are judging.<P>What is right for you is not necessarily right for me or anybody else. This thread was for advice, not judgement, which is Stu's lifeblood, and obviously that of her new found ally Indie.<BR><P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

c00ker<P>when did I judge you????????

My, my, this thread had become a political debate. Comparing ME to Clinton. Now, now. Don't shove your morals on me. I have done the right thing throughout my marriage and throughout this sh&^ we all call infidelity. I am on month 13 or 18 depending on how you look at it. I have been through it all. I have tried to heal and WS comes back begging for more - my fault for accepting, I know. But unlike some of you, I AM NOT PERFECT! I tried to make my marriage work and I am sick of being crapped on! I don't care what some of you think is the "right" thing to do. Take your bitterness elsewhere. <P>I KNOW I am on a marriage BUILDERS website. I have tried to build my marriage, to no avail. So, I must move on. I am also on the divorced/divorcing board now. I will not accept a screwed up life waiting on WS to come home when he finishes with OW. I deserve more and yes my kids deserve more! <P>I have no intentions of "dating" with my kids. Hell, my own mother-in-law (my biggest fan) is encouraging me to date, to move on, to stop being WS's target. I, and I alone, know what is best for me and my boys. I simply wanted some friendly advice from those that are where I am or have been where I am - believe me, I don't need the condemnation, I do that to myself quite enough, thank you!<P>I also have seen the anger and bitterness that is directed to those who are deemed to be "less than perfect" on this board. This board is NOT about the "perfect spouse" - we all know if we were not perfect, we wouldn't be here to begin with now, would we? Judge not, lest ye be judged.

You're right, Indie, you didn't judge cOOker, you judged ME! That's a big difference now isn't it?????

c00ker <P>how am I being nasty? I think I didn't say one nasty thing to you , I am just being curious, oh well I was just trying to get soem input<P>LWM,<P>By al means I am not perfect and I guess in a round about way I am asking the same thing you are? But I guess this is a sore subject with most people on this board. Oh well I guess it is good to let out the anger and frustration here, but people take what other people say way too personal...

no I did not judge you it actually in the beginning was scarcasm you know the thing about what web site we are on..<P>I did not judge you either, simply ask a question without putting the question mark in there. <P><BR>I still ahve the same question <P>can't we wait to date until the divorce is final?????????????<BR>

What is right for you is not right for me. I don't know if you can wait or not. Don't judge me if I CHOOSE not to wait. I may NOT wait, but I may. I have learned one thing through this and that is to say that I will not say I will NEVER do anythihg again.

I respect that, and that is what I was kind of asking maybe it came out wrong or something, but I can not say for sure either if I can wait or not. I posted a question on another thread defination of a date. Can you give me some input on it??

Indie:<P>Sorry for inadvertantly "jumping" on you. Like I said, it's been well over a year for me now and I just can't hold on anymore. Unlike others on the board, I failed miserably at plan a. Now plan b, I can do. <P>I don't know your situation. I don't know how long you have to wait to be divorced either. If you have done plan a and plan b and are ready to move on, then who is to say whether you are right or not? In fact, only YOU can judge when the right time would be....<P>Good luck to you.

LWM,<P>It has been 7 months and to tell ya I really do not know when it will be over, she said she has done some paperwork with the lawyer for the settlement, that we both agreed upon, and right now, whatever happens, happens.<P>I am not on either plan well i guess you can say plan B, too me i am just gathering information fo rmy knowledge and really do not care to follow a plan right now. <P>I did ask you a wquestion on the other post did you read it and do you think you can give me your opinion or insight on what she might have been thinking?<P>Q: What can go through a womans mind to take a kid on a date with them?

Indie:<P>I'm guessing you are the BS. Is she taking your child on dates with the OP? Where I live, you can prevent your child from being around the OP while still married. I don't know if your state is a no fault state or not. I live in a state where the grounds for divorce are adultery, abuse, or alcoholism. This prevents my WS from taking my kids around the OP right now.<P><BR>It sounds to me like your wife is in the fog. She's worried about what makes her happy and thinks that in turn will make your child happy. Do what you must to protect your child.

Cooker,<P>No, I really don't want to debate. When I said "sorry" is because I let my opinions slip out. On a previous thread, Jayhawk got on me for editing a previous post. After some thought, I figured that perhaps I shouldn't go back and edit and maybe it was better to just post new, like he suggested.<P>Why is it so hard to answer Indie's question after all? We're all lonely and hurting and wishing this didn't happen to us, right? I believe that there is an "ideal" way to handle this. You can aspire to the ideal or not. I've learned the hard way that excuses after the fact are a poor replacement for courage and fortitude before the fact. <P>living with memories,<BR>Comparing you to Clinton. No I don't think I did that. I was making a point about what is considered "legal" and what is right for you. On one post you say that you have no plans on dating, then in the very next post you say "what is wrong with that". I'm not slamming you for being hurt and confused, but, as a person who has been where you are right now, I must--in your best interest, not mine--point out that you do sound confused. I understand VERY well what it is like to feel desperate and reach out for the first person who treats you nicely. No, I'm certainly not perfect. You want to listen to someone who has learned their lessons the hard way and WANTS to point you in a good direction (albeit an unpleasant one at the moment) or you want someone to agree with you? It doesn't really matter to me either way. It's your life. <P>

just to lighten things up....<P>I'm the last person to ask about holding out. I've been celibate for the last two years (intentionally). Still, when you start "making eyes" at the stick shift on your truck--there is a problem. LOL. My dog is safe. He's fixed. But seriously...

Checking to see if the sharks are circling...okay, looks like it's now safe for me to jump in the water...<P>Why can't/don't we wait unti the divorce is final? Is that the original question? Well, the answer starts like this...<P><B>EVERY SITUATION IS DIFFERENT</B><P>From there we proceed to look at the irony of divorce law as it meanders its way from state to state...for instance, in Washington...90 days from filing to finality...wait to date? Sure, we can all handle 90 days...but other states have much longer waiting periods...probably better referred to as "limbo" periods...some are even a full year and I believe some states used to be 2 years.<P>Now, when we have those who would sit in judgement and cast stones at any who do not toe their party line...do they judge the legally divorced person in Washington who begins dating on day 91 differently than the stilllllllllll separated person who is sitting somewhere around day 330 and considering not going to the movies alone for once???<P>Is divorce really about the little piece of paper? Having just gotten mine recently...I don't think it is. Is being "ready to date" about having that little license? I don't think so there either. You're divorced in your heart and mind when you know that a)reconciliation is absolutely not an option and b)if your ex-spouse came back to you, requesting a chance to reconcile, and you were involved with someone else, you would tell your ex-spouse no thank you. This may occur while you are separated or it may not occur until several years after you're divorced...<B>EACH SITUATION IS DIFFERENT.</B> <P>IMO you are only ready to date after the emotional divorce has occurred...let that be your guide. You will then be protecting whomever you choose to date from your baggage as well as protecting yourself from it also.<P>Now, before the sharks begin to devour me for having a different opinion...I think I'll just hop into my little rowboat and head for a little tropical lagoon I noticed off in the distance <P>Lisa<P><P>------------------<BR>I am woman...hear me roar...okay - meow...okay - purr? Hey, I'm working on it.

get back here Lisa,<P>now that was a good answer to the question I had , gees you had to wait till 1 am to do it. Oh well I guess if you look at it like that then well maybe I might start to date when my heart and soul are not feeling married.

<B>Gees, What is this web sites name? Hmm....... Let me check again, Oh yeah it is Marriage Builders. Not Dating advice or dating whatever. <I> ok, more sarcastic than judgemental</I>, my bust.<P>"...You've gotten a taste of what it is like to go against the "whatever is good for you" flow around here though. BS get pretty much carte-blanche to do whatever they want before their divorce, as long as their spouse "cheats" first. Nice huh?... <I> not judgemental?</I></B><P>I <B>have</B> waited. I <B>have</B> plan A'd, and I am now in plan B. My marriage is over. I know this. A judgement from a political entity does not "make" me divorced. I was married by a priest, not a judge. My answer to LWM was to make sure she understood how she felt and to ensure there were no latent feeling for her WS before she decided to "date". <P>If my WS came to my house right now begging for forgivness and asking for a second chance, I would tell her no. Kindly and without malice, but no. The marriage has ended. Her behavior has destroyed any feelings I ever had for her. That was MY divorce.<P>I personally decided to wait. For me. That doesn't mean that LWM has to, or even needs to. It means that I'm doing what I feel is right for me, and that may or may not be what's right for her.<P><B><I>...It's probably not a good idea to become involved with someone until you are certain there is no chance for reconcilliation, which is the reason most logical discussions on this subject agree about waiting til the divorce is final, and then some...</B></I> This is what I said in response to LWM. If that's not subscribing to the "party line", I'm sorry.<P>People come here for advice and support, not sarcasm, belittlement, ridicule and judgement. <P>It's a shame when a gentle response with compassion and understanding doesn't make you feel as good as one with contempt and superiority and righteousness.<P>LWM, I'm sorry this thread turned out this way and I'm going to try and get it back on track.<P>I re-read your original post. Again. <P>You used the word "crush", and that word has some very definite connotations. I'm not going to tell you it IS or IS NOT ok to pursue this person. I'm going to ask you to guard your heart and especially the heart of the person you find interesting right now. If you strike that match around him and ignite feelings in him for you, only to later discover that you were only using him to ease your pain, think about how much pain you could end up causing him... I think you have a pretty good idea of what that pain feels like... and I'm positive you don't want to do that to someone else...<P>Take care...<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited May 26, 2001).]