"IMO you are only ready to date after the emotional divorce has occurred...let that be your guide."<P>OK. So then according to your viewpoint, your spouse didn't cheat on you. They simply got an emotional divorce from you and proceeded accordingly. <P>

You go c00ker!!!!<P>Our divorce was filed for in 1998, granted in 1999, although I was judged (it was edited out) with a guessing number on how many dating situations I had been before a final divorce decree. I wish I hadn't read that post Stu. Judge, jury and hangman. Nobody soaks up information you have to offer that way, at least I don't.<P>I chose to wait and I'm not wearing a badge because I did so.<P>Everyone has to learn their OWN way, sometimes the HARD way and look at their OWN face in the mirror.<P>Seven months into dating and NO I'm not up for a debate,<P>Ragamuffin<P>P.S. Daughter on dates? Somebody better seek custody A.S.A.P. Protect your child for goodness sake!<BR>

I think nick's response was from the perspective of a BS who has tried and tried to reconcile and can no longer hang on, waiting for the WS to change his/her mind. I think you are very bitter and hurt TS. I don't blame you for that , but blasting me shouldn't make you feel better. After all, if you know my pain, why would you try to tear me down even more for being human? Again, I think you are twisting people words. Perhaps your delivery could be improved. In a perfect world, I agree with what you are saying. But we are humans who have been hurt beyond belief by some very selfish people. <P>All BS's who have gone the route I am talking about seem to regret doing so. BUT no one could tell them that, they had to learn on their own, right? Makes it a little easier to understand why WS has deserted his family when he knows it's wrong and that he really isn't as SPECIAL as the affair makes him feel, just a statistic. He will have to live and learn himself to believe it.<P>As for my having a crush or dating, I am obviously very confused about where I am. My personal beliefs are that I am married until I am divorced. Whether I remain faithful to that remains to be seen. I'm not saying it's right. I'm just telling the truth. I don't know what I will do - yes, I do. I will continue to live my life day to day and if this man seeks me out for friendship, then I will enjoy that. Again, it may not be right, BUT it's the truth. <BR>

living with memories,<P>I have not slammed you. I'm sorry that reminding you of your responsibility to yourself and to others you might become involved with is considered "bitter and hurt". You didn't really come here looking for advice. You came here to get permission to date before your divorce is final. Go ahead. Like I said, I really don't care what you do. It is your life. I think I've said that three times now...<P>You are right. You are human. So is your spouse. If you are willing to grant yourself the "right" to date before you get a divorce, then I honestly don't understand why you have a problem with your spouse doing the same or why you consider yourself to be betrayed. Why is that so hard to understand? He just found someone new before you did, that's all. <P>Ragamuffin,<BR>"I wish I hadn't read that post Stu." Which post? The one on the other thread that I edited? In a way, I wish I hadn't edited that post. It illustrated very clearly why this topic gets so heated on this board. It is very unfortunate that any other advice besides "do whatever you feel like doing" is regarded as hateful and bitter. <P>Occasionally, a so-called betrayer will come on this site and discuss why they feel like having an affair is ok and there is no shortage of people telling them how "wrong" it is. Yet, all one has to is to is come here and say "I was cheated on" and all um, judgement, for lack of a better word, gets thrown out the window and it is A-OK to do whatever. Why doesn't that inconsistency bother anyone but me and a few others here? If you expected your spouse to tow the line on your marriage, then why shouldn't others expect you to tow the line until it is final? Why does me saying so bother people so much? I suppose I just don't get it. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 26, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>"IMO you are only ready to date after the emotional divorce has occurred...let that be your guide."<P>OK. So then according to your viewpoint, your spouse didn't cheat on you. They simply got an emotional divorce from you and proceeded accordingly. <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh Stu,<P>You missed the point of my answer entirely...must be because you couldn't see clearly from the high horse you're sitting on...(a little sarcasm never hurts now and then, right Stu?) <P>You see the problem with many WS, is they don't divorce emotionally or even attempt to start the wheels of separation/divorce prior to their straying...they want their home/family but the fling on the side for excitement too...I could probably have a lot more respect for those who invested in their marriage, decided they were still unhappy, sought a divorce and THEN started dating...unfortunately that's not the way it usually happens.<P>Indie, I see you actually read and consider other's viewpoints...that is good and a way to grow from hanging around this board...might I suggest you bail from this thread while you can still divest yourself of a certain association... <P>Lisa<P>

on my own,<P>Really? Why is it that one of the first things that a so-called betrayer will say is "I'm not in love with you anymore" as justification for their behavior.<P>Of course, I wouldn't have a problem with someone getting a divorce first and then dating either. If you expect the so-called betrayer to do that, then why can't you live up to that too? Because you're human? You have needs? So did your spouse. If it is ok for you to do it, then it should be ok for your spouse to do that too. Let's talk about being on a high-horse. For some reason, it's not ok for your spouse to start seeing someone else when they don't feel like they love you anymore. It's not ok for them to be confused, and needy, and lonely and reach out for someone new while they are still married. But it is ok for you to do that. Furthermore, it is fine to be telling other people it is ok to be doing that? <P>If being confused is a rational excuse for someone's behavior, then lets just throw out the betrayer label all together. I'm not being sarcastic. I wasn't being sarcastic before. I'm dead serious. <P>But never mind me. Go ahead and learn the hard way. Be my guest.<P>I'm sorry. I take that back. I honestly don't want anyone to learn the hard way. I really don't. I certainly don't want living with memories to learn the hard way. <P>In a way, I'm sorry I even posted. I'm sorry that I subject myself to any of this. People don't want to hear that things are going to get harder before they get easier. They don't want someone to tell them to stay on the honorable path. They want someone to tell them that they've earned the right to be irresponsible since their spouse cheated first. <sigh><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 26, 2001).]

Okay Student:<P>You win, you are right. The rest of us are wrong. I will aspire to meet your expectations. If you really don't care what I do with my life, why do you keep coming back to this thread???/.,mnbvcx Did you see everything so black and white in your marriage? In the past I have been very much like you, but life has a way of humbling even the best of us.

living with memories,<P>I keep coming back because I don't want you to make the same mistakes I have or that others on this forum have made. In the big scheme of things, you could say that I don't care. I don't know you. You don't know me. We are strangers who just type on this keyboard. <P>I know very well what it is like to be lonely and desperate and do something foolish as a result. Telling you to do whatver you feel like doing while you are obviously confused does not help you. If your child were in this situation, what would you tell them to do? What about a close friend or relative? You have absolutely nothing to lose by waiting, is all I'm saying. Your loneliness will pass. This awful time in your life will pass, and then you can say with 100% confidence that you were 100% faithful until your divorce. Wouldn't you like to be able to say that? I sure wish *I* could say that. Wouldn't you like to attract men someday who believe that marriage vows are intact until a divorce is obtained? <P>There are lots of things you can do that are fun and will improve your outlook on life right now that won't put your emotional health at risk until you are healed. I'm sorry you are having a hard time. I really, really am.

Lisa,<P>Na i am not going to bail, damn that would alomost be like bailing on my marriage. <P>All the points are well taken by me and that is what I ws looking for, and i think you actually said some good stuff, and i think it would be a different story it the WS did seek divorce before starting to date. But we all know 99% of them don't. I think I am going back too bed now i will debate this more later i am tired stayed up way too late .<P>

OK, in deference to the title of the thread,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> What happens when a BS is attracted to someone else? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>In my marriage, i had been attracted to other women. what did i do about it? smiled back at them, engaged in good chatter when i bumped into them. Everyone can be attracted to another person, its an entirely normal and human response. How you act on the attraction is a decision that one makes.<P>What TS is rather personally direct with, is more eloquently written with:<P>you are normal, and a human being, with normal emotions and feelings. Now, can you use your brain to control your reactions to the feelings such that nothing much but conversation and smiles happen?<P>WS and newly dating BS all start from the same point, emotionally needing of some missing needs, and someone else is providing that need for them. The point TS is trying to get you to see, is if you rely on someone else to satisfy those needs and sexualize the relationship, then you are guilty of dependency upon others to make yourself feel good. Once that occurs, you can lose your ability for spiritual growth, as you can be a parasite on someone else, depending upon someone else for your happiness.<P><B> And if you become dependent upon someone else for your happiness, you become a WS to your self, to your inner happiness and growth. </B><P>

Here she goes again, taking over another thread.<P>Everyone humbly bow down, so that Student may teach us from her mistakes. OH! Wait I thought she was perfect!!<P>I've never posted with you before, but I avoid you like the plague. Your self rightous views are YOURS. You DO NOT have the right to force them on others. And yes, you DO try to force. No memeber can start a topic here about finding love with out your jumping in like you are God or something. I myself am sick of how you take over peoples posts to simply defend your views. Um, like, no one has asked you to share your views.<P>Maybe the reason why you have to go ON and ON and ON about this is because you are butt-ugly or something and not a man in the world would want you anyway.<P>To me, that is the ONLY rational reason why you get off to ARGUING with everyone.<P>So please, give us ALL a break. Share your views with someone who cares. I myself dont. You are like a broken record. One that is stuck on:<P>"I am right, <BR> I am right, <BR> Everyone else is wrong."<P>Dara<p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited May 26, 2001).]

Dara i assume your a chick and what a BI&%h you are,<P>gee maybe this name calling isn't going to go anywhere, but it felt good just like I am sure you felt good after posting your comments.......<P><BR>oh yeah i am a man and if you reply all i will here is blah blah blah "do we have to watch the game, can't we watch Titanic" blah blah blah<p>[This message has been edited by Indie (edited May 26, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>on my own,<P>Really? Why is it that one of the first things that a so-called betrayer will say is "I'm not in love with you anymore" as justification for their behavior.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>The problem Stu, is that my Ex did NOT say that until AFTER he was caught...both the first and second time....<BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>Of course, I wouldn't have a problem with someone getting a divorce first and then dating either. If you expect the so-called betrayer to do that, then why can't you live up to that too? <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You know nothing of my situation...clearly. Yet you pontificate...interesting. <P>Had my ex been a real man, with ethics and morals...if he'd tried to put things right in our marriage but still found himself unhappy...if he'd separated from me and said "I don't love you anymore" BEFORE finding a girlfriend - I would still have respect for him. And, if he'd waited a reasonable amount of time during our separation before dating...I probably could've stomached that too....<P>Unlike you, Stu, I don't presume to tell people what is right or wrong for them...but I do point out those circumstances that may set them up for emotional pain, either their own or others and propose caution...i.e. making sure you are emotionally divorced from your spouse prior to seeing anyone new.<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><P>I'm not being sarcastic. I wasn't being sarcastic before.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Perhaps I confused sarcasm with rudeness... <BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>But never mind me. Go ahead and learn the hard way. Be my guest.<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thank you for your permission for me to live my life...funny, I don't remember asking for it.<P>You neither know or understand the full story of my life, the actions of my ex and myself through the demise of our marriage and the choices, consequences and reasons behind my actions or choices...how dare you presume to even comment on them much less judge them. <P>Don't you just get tired of self-righteously casting all those stones?<P>Lisa

Alright ya'll, since I started the thread I'm going to be the "mama" here. Lay off of TS. Obviously, she is hurting and let's don't kick someone when they are down, no matter how judgemental she might be. We are all entitled to our own opinions even we though some of us may try to shove it down the throat of others....<P>You know what I find so scary, TS? You are a PRIME CANDIDATE to have an affair - you think it wouldn't happen to you, that you are above that.... That is exactly the profile of a person ripe for an affair according to Harley.<P>And Indie, what in the world was that ugly statement for? I know that you are mad at your wife, but don't take it out on all women, okay? I have been around for a while and TS does seem to get herself in trouble when she posts.<P>Anyway, I have decided that since I am on this Marriage BUILDERS that I will limit my discussion of this aspect of my life - the part that is a woman with needs and wants of her own. I am not just a mother and not just the wife of a WS living with his OW.<P>

LWM,<P>I have a simple question regarding your original post:<P>What are you looking for from the people here on MB? <P>What you seem to be asking is for approval to go ahead and pursue this man. Whenever anyone takes you to task for considering dating while you are married, you become defensive, and insist that you should not be judged by the betrayed spouses who post here!<P>You seem to be unwilling to accept the fact that what you are planning is, by your own standards, <B>wrong</B>. You said in one post:<P>"My personal beliefs are that I am married until I am divorced. Whether I remain faithful to that remains to be seen."<P>I'm sorry, but this seems a little odd to me. You state your belief, yet you seem unwilling to not only follow your own creed, but to accept criticism for abandoning that creed! You seem to be unwilling to accept responsibility for your own actions. Over and over again, you seem to say "I'd like to break my marriage vows, please tell me that it's okay."<P>Are you looking for honest advice, or are you looking for approval?<P>

LWM,<P><BR>I guess you skipped over Dara's post typical, can only see what you want to see, take the blinders off!!!<P><BR>It was rude on my part to say that to Dara and am I going to apologize nope. She deserved it for the comments she made becasue she is a closed minded person and this debate is pretty much worthless, because your not listening or trying to comphrend the other peoples opinions. I have and I see it from both sides and will choose my own path when and if that time may arise. To actually come here and to seek approval for soemthing everyone has strong feelings about is pretty naive on your part to not think the debate was going to get ugly. AM I attacking you, jsut a perspective from a different side. I actually learned a lot about why peopel start dating or do not date until the divorce is final.<P>You are your own person and only you can figure out what your going to do, and to possibily make your decision on what / you may or may not do from a debate on this forum, is jsut basically asking if you can or cannot do it. Like it is a popularity contest, which ever side has the most votes then it might be fine with you to do it or not. <P>i make my own decisions and do not care what a anyone else has to say because they do not have to live with it only me and me alone. So good luck on what ever you decide to do.<P>if you think I am attacking you I am not, it might be harsh or sound negative in what I am saying but it is not, just my perspective.<P>Cjack yours was probably better said than mine....<P>Dara your still a ...........

You know what? I am sounding worse than a WS on this thread. I bounce back and forth between what I think is right and what I want to do. I know what is right, to wait until the divorce is final to move on to other relationships.<P>I did not come on MB to gain approval or justification. I'm looking for someone who has been there and what happened. I don't think what I am contemplating is right (wrong even), but the fact of the matter is that unless you ALWAYS do the right thing, then don't throw stones. The fact of the matter is that I and probably most of you wouldn't even be here if your spouses had not cheated/left you. I wouldn't even be looking at other men, but my WS rejected me - you all know the pain of rejection. The fact that the decision to save or end my marriage was taken away from me makes it even worse.<P>I have been on MB a long time (changed names a couple of time) and I can honestly say that the board is taking a turn for the worse as far as attacking others. I do know that this subject is VERY sensitive to BS's - as it really was to me a few months ago. Personnally, when I respond to someone I try to focus on the hurt and rejection, not my bitterness and hatred - I save that for WS and OW.

I would just like to point out that my WS to this day still says what he did was not an affair because he wasn't in love with me and our "marital relationship" had been over for a very long time. In his mind and heart our relationship was dead, so he did nothing wrong. <P>When he tried to reconcile with me, he still said it wasn't an affair because of the condition of our marriage and I was too obsessed by something that had nothing to do with us. The closest he ever came to admitting that he cheated was to say that it was a "mistake".<P>And now today, he considers his relationship with this woman "cleaned up" because I served him with divorce papers.<P>It's still adultery.<P>And if I did it, I would be committing adultery too.<P>"He did it first" is not a justification, its a selfish childish excuse.<P>And frankly, outside of the moral aspect - it takes a long time to heal. How can you avoid repeating the mistakes of the past if you haven't given yourself the time to heal and time to grow?<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Living with memories:<BR><B>"But why can't I have some fun?" I am SICK of sitting at home alone crying, depressed, feeling rejected and worthless as a woman and a wife.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When I read this thread this statement was the most telling to me that perhaps you are not ready to date. You are wanting to cover up these emotions by going out with someone who will make you feel good so you can have some fun. But like a drug, using another to make us feel something that is not really there, it can become addictive and in the end can cause more damage. <P>I had written down some comments about how I don't think that dating before the D papers are final is the same as having and affair. But I won't go into that here. That is a personal choice for each individual to make. Like OMO said with laws differing from state to state on time and each individuals journey to recovery being very personal who is to say. Like I said it is a personal choice.<P>I concur with those who say to go out and have fun. But until you are comfortable spending time alone with yourself just reading, thinking, cooking, whatever and you can truely feel happy doing that you probably shouldn't date. You are reaching out to this man to give you something. You should only be reaching out when you yourself have something to give him!<P>Embracing the pain and learning from it is the only way you can grow spiritually. I encourage you not to try and run from the pain...it sucks I know, but rather find yourself and what makes you happy first without the help of another.<P>Take Care.<P>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheStudent:<BR><B>"IMO you are only ready to date after the emotional divorce has occurred...let that be your guide."<P>OK. So then according to your viewpoint, your spouse didn't cheat on you. They simply got an emotional divorce from you and proceeded accordingly. <BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's not the same, and you know it.<P>This is how this little event happened for me:<P>I didn't do a good enough job of keeping the balance in my STBX's lovebank. She started spending time with another depositer. When his balance surpassed mine, she decides to switch accounts. Sound familiar?<P>OK, now I didn't <B><I>KNOW</B></I> she was emotionally divorcing me and starting a new merit badge program with my sons cub scout leader. She never said anything until after she had already decided to leave me for him.(and that was a couple of <B>YEARS</B> after their relationship started). Now, almost a year after she deserted me, if I find and connect with someone else, you are going to tell me that's same thing?<P>That is the most utterly ludicrous leap of logic I have ever heard.<P>If I do, is it adultery? Technically yes. Am I justified? Probably not. Should I be eviscerated on this forum for displaying the temerity to broach a subject that so brazenly crosses the moral boundaries of the Almighty Stu and her Congressional Medal of Celibacy? No, I should not.<P>Here is my point Stu. I don't disagree with most of your ideals. I do however take offense when you try for extra credit by being mean. Period. You can be righteous, sanctimonious and judgmental all you want. All it does is turn people away from the point you are trying to make.<P>And BTW, I have shown her the courtesy of telling her that I've given up on us reconcilling. That's a hell of a lot more than I got from her.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited May 27, 2001).]