I'd like to interject a little MB review here.<P>Plans A and B are part of your attempt at RECONCILIATION. If any of you consider yourself in Plan B, it means you are still IN THE MARRIAGE - WANTING IT RESTORED.<P>If you are simply not talking to your spouse as you wait for the divorce to be finalized, and you consider yourself to be done with your marriage - you are NOT in Plan B.<P>Folks, I am probably one of the biggest supporters of Marriage Builders, and I want my marriage restored as much as anyone, and probably more than some. I have Plan A'd for a very long time - and am only in Plan B now because my husband moved away. But, I do know something about being interested in a member of the opposite sex during all of this.<P>I was in Plan A and separated from my husband for 16 months when I got involved with a guy who made me feel wonderful... I was sure that I was ready to be done with my marriage. But simply because my emotional state made me very needy for attention, I mistook the guy's interest level and wound up VERY VERY VERY hurt ... Lo and behold, when I surfaced from my latest misery, I discovered that my love for my husband was just as strong as ever.<P>Since my husband has moved, I've posted over at GQII about my infatuation with a married co-worker ... and everyone there has supported me and helped me keep from making any other stupid mistakes. Thankfully, it seems that I have gotten past those crazy feelings and have been able to work closely with this same person without feeling anything but friendship and respect. And self-respect.<P>I am still married, I still love my husband and I don't want a divorce. That may not be how some of you feel, and that is fine. As several have pointed out here, we all have to live with ourselves.<P>The bottom line is: If you are not working toward reconciliation with your spouse (which would include remaining celibate and NOT dating), then you are NOT in Plan B... you are simply done.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

<B><I>DING!</B></I><P>done...<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Indie:<BR><B>LWM,<P><BR>I guess you skipped over Dara's post typical, can only see what you want to see, take the blinders off!!!<P><BR>It was rude on my part to say that to Dara and am I going to apologize nope. She deserved it for the comments she made becasue she is a closed minded person and this debate is pretty much worthless, because your not listening or trying to comphrend the other peoples opinions. I have and I see it from both sides and will choose my own path when and if that time may arise. To actually come here and to seek approval for soemthing everyone has strong feelings about is pretty naive on your part to not think the debate was going to get ugly. AM I attacking you, jsut a perspective from a different side. I actually learned a lot about why peopel start dating or do not date until the divorce is final.<P>You are your own person and only you can figure out what your going to do, and to possibily make your decision on what / you may or may not do from a debate on this forum, is jsut basically asking if you can or cannot do it. Like it is a popularity contest, which ever side has the most votes then it might be fine with you to do it or not. <P>i make my own decisions and do not care what a anyone else has to say because they do not have to live with it only me and me alone. So good luck on what ever you decide to do.<P>if you think I am attacking you I am not, it might be harsh or sound negative in what I am saying but it is not, just my perspective.<P>Cjack yours was probably better said than mine....<P>Dara your still a ...........</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"She deserved it because she is a closed minded person"...<P>Just what do you think I deserved? <P>You have only been a member since the 21st, and therefore could not realize that TS has been doing this to everyone, everytime she posts. <P>I am not the only one who has slammed her, or is tired of her 'debates.'<P>Its always the same subject with her, about her vow of celibacy.<P>And never does she offer to share her hard-earned wisdom here. This is the point of this forum, Indie. Not to name call and slam people, as you did to me and I did to her. <P>We post to each other to hopefully find courage and compassion with those in like situations. The point of being here is to help us learn the best steps to take to restore our marraiges, or, at the very least, walk away woth a sense of self-respect.<P>No one view here is "the right way".<P>This is why we are all weary of her preaching her views.<P>I'm sorry, Indie, but this is not some 'dating chat', or a place to pick people up, to to cyber-something.<P>And in my opinion, you are not here to learn about your marraige. Or acknowledge your responsibility for its demise. You talk like a foul mouthed teenager, and teenage boys usually use chat rooms for less than honorable intent.<P>Maybe this is why you think you have the right to name call. And judge me. Trying to prove yourself to someone. Well, you've proven yourself to me. <P>You really have no business here at Marraige Builders at the rate you are going. You are not seeking help, or offering pearls of wisdom or compassion for those in need.<P>And the reason why my post was skipped over in response by LWM is that noone here in their right mind woulod defend your antics. And mainly, because most people on this forum share my disdain for TS endless brow-beating.<P>You have ABSOLOUTLEY NO RIGHT to come here calling people B*****'s. Grow up. <P>

Just for the record....Don't count me in the group that holds TheStudent in disdain I happen to think she adds a certain flair to this board...be it brow beating or whatever synonym you choose...She is the nemisis to many here and is not so shy to say it...BFD...If you dissagree with her or don't like her advice...Just skip it...<P>It never fails that these kinds of threads turn into a pissing contest of sorts...We all see things differently...Human nature...Again...BFD...She doesn't need me to defend her, she manages to do just fine on her own...<P>Maybe those that get all worked up by her opinions ought to take a look at it...There might just be a shred of truth to it or else we wouldn't get all indignant trying to justify unjustifiable begavior...Again...Human nature...<P>The original question on this thread seemed to have been answered on page 2...And If anyone reads what she posts...you'd actually see someone that wants to help others avoid pain, tumolt, chaos and the despair of relationships born out of raw lonely feelings....But of course that isn't the case...We only see what we want...Usually the grey areas outside the black areas we are tempting...Go figure...<P>If anyone wants to test that fickle, finger of fate be my guest...Enjoy the pain! Then again...If you are divorced and past the the emotions after divorce and you have a <B>CLUE</B> as to what it takes to have a <B>HEALTHY</B> relationship then I wish only the best, because after all we do deserve to some semblance of joy in our lives...The rest of us...Be very careful!!<P>If I can put my head on my pillow each night and sleep with my own concience, it is a good day...If I struggle because of some not so spiritual deed then I figure out what to change and make amends...<P>Oh...BTW...I wish I could hold onto my convictions half as much as TS holds hers...That is where, in my not so humble opinion, we ought to respect her....She does hang on to hers...Call her judgemental...Hell, who isn't...Once again...Human Nature <P>One more BTW Did she ever say to live life like she does???<BR>Hardly ever overtly...But you have to admit she does make valid points...My experience tells me I ought to have listened a little harder...<P>Enough of my rant...I'm dog-tired so pardon my vulgarities...Now I will silently steal myself back to bed in the hopes that sleep comes <P>Love you guys.<P>Bill<P>

Learn......<P>i can tell you I am no teenager and who cares how long i been signed in as a memeber. If you bothered to read any of my other post I acknolwedge that I have learned why people do or don't want to date. It is funny that you get so upset becasue I called you a b***h. I am not sorry for it and feel no need to apologize for it, because you were acting like one to her and you did deserve to get called one.<P>Your right this is not some dating chat room, gee I think i said that in my very first post, but it did bring out some good points on both sides which I was looking for, and you know so what The Student imposes her beliefs on everyone until they are sick of it, you had no right to attack her and I just felt like defending her. because I have read the post and most of this forum, has a great disdain for her and her beliefs. <BR>I talk like a foul mouth teenager, quit funny , please reeread your posts!!!!!!<BR>and I have accepted my responsibilities in my marriage. If you care to know, my bigggest problem in my marriage was that I paid too much attention to my 4 year old daughter and my stbx was so selfish in her needs and wants, she felt like she could go out and find someone to satisfy them, without talking to me about it, now that is a very cowardly thing to do and teenager like!!!!! Not what I am saying here, and by the way my foul mouth denfends this country every single day from our enemies, so you and I can talk the way we want and do what we want. My antics all i was stating was my opinion and you of course did not like it becasue I happen to think you at that time of your post was acting like a B***H. I did not judge you , you need to let go of that anger and take off the blinders and read some of my other posts about this subject. Oh well i see you will not, and i will try and refrain from calling you a B....<P>And by the way if your going to quote me at least read what you think I said, and really reread why i called you a B.....<P>Oh well so now you have 2 people on your list...

Wow, this sure is getting friendly, isn't it? <P>Aren't we grown-ups here? I pretty much fall on the side of Indie, TS, Bill, and the rest of the "Not until you're divorced" club. (And yes, I've broken that rule myself, and it was a mistake!) Yet I respect the "other side" and I understand why a person in the midst of a divorce would want to date again before the ink is dry on the papers.<P>However, this thread seems to have turned into a pissing match between a selected few people! <P><BR>Quick MB quiz: Name a LoveBuster...<P><BR>How many of you said <B>Disrespectful Judgements</B>?<P>That's what I thought...<P>Taking someone to task for over-zealously following their marriage vows (and expecting others to do the same) is a disrespectful judgement.<P>Calling a woman a b**ch is disrespectful in the extreme, whether they deserve it or not. <P>In addition, refusing to apologize for disrespectful judgements is rather childish, and "he/she deserved it" is no excuse. One of the posters here compared this behavior with that of teenagers.<P>They were wrong.<P>This is the kind of stuff I'd expect from an 8-year old.<P>

Well well,<P>Look at the fine mess this has become.<P>I am at my lowest point in my life right now, as I'm you all may understand. Forsaken by my parents, and my husband.<P>I came across very sharp in a rude immature way to TS. I had no right to. Lately I am quick to snap at everyone, including those I love here at home.<P>TS, please accept my most humble apology. You did not ask for me to attack you, which I did. You are an intellectual and strong person. I am the opposite right now. Maybe I spoke out of jealousy, to be able to make a stand for something you believe in. The stand I have made for my marraige is wearing me out. I envy your strentgh. Please forgive me.<P>Indie, although I thoroughly disagree with your aggresiveness to me, I feel I owe you an apology as well. If I said something in my first post to make you feel defensive, I am sorry. That was not my intent.<P>>sigh<<P>Dara

Oh boy... where to start?<P>I will honestly admit that I do try and avoid these types of discussions. Talk about pissing off a hornet's nest.<P>Since I do think that the question asked deserves an answer, and there are few that I believed tried to answer, I will give my opinion. Please note that this is only my opinion, and it is not me trying to tell anyone else how to live their lives, for that is none of my business. In my opinion, I do not think that a person should date until they are comfortable with themselves. Yes, I understand the feelings of being alone. I understand the overwhelming sadness and the extreeme desires of wanting someone to want you and of wanting someone else. But *in my opinion* to date someone when you feel like you are at your lowest point in your life, is not an answer. I believe that in the long run that would only cause you more harm then good. I think that a person needs time to rediscover themselves and find things out about themselves. I think that first you need to feel comfortable with being alone before you should consider being with someone else. I will not even dive into the legal or spiritual beliefs regarding pre or post divorce dating. That is a hornet's nest that I do not want to disturb.<P>BUT--- I need to say something here. YES, this is a marriage builders site. BUT, this is also supposed to be a place where we all feel comfortable asking questions and soliciting opinions. All of our situations are different. We all have different horrors and traumas that we have to deal with in our lives. No one person's situation is like anothers. This is why being able to solicite the opinions of so many is such a great resource. I value everyone's opinion here. I may not agree with them all the time, but like everything else in this world, there are just some things that we need to take with a grain of salt. With that being said....<P>Opinions are one thing. Flat out nasty name calling is another. Nothing personal, but I have been called a b***h enough during my marriage to last me a lifetime. I would never use such a term for another human being if my life depended on it. I VERY clearly remember everytime my husband used that word and many others like that towards me on a daily basis. And in all honesty, those words hurt me more deeply than any physical strike he EVER made towards me! That went BEYOND something that I can tollerate. If my opinions differ from anothers, so be it, comment on my opinions, there is NO NEED to use that kind of a term towards another human being.<P>To quote Charlie Brown... "Good Greif." We are all adults here, can we please act like them?<P>~Java

I guess I didn't piss hard enough, eh? LOL!<P>Please, folks read my post above on this page - it is not just one of the contributions to the "contest" but a valid and well meant injection of real MB information into this discussion.<P>Maybe you did read it, but I notice that the only responses subsequent to my post pretty much ignored it in favor of commenting upon the pissing contest. That's what keeps them going, you know <BR><P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Sorry, Terri. I, too got involved in commenting on the urination competition. In fact, I think I was the first to refer to yellow liquid here!<P>I also was the first to respond to LWM's initial question. My response, like yours, was basically "speaking from experience...don't do it!"<P>That message didn't go over very well. Which is why my second post questioned whether LWM was looking for advice, or just approval to start dating. Not much response there either.<P>My last post? Well, lets just say I was the guy in school who tried to break up fights before they got too ugly!

Terri,<P>You are correct, I did completely overlook you post...I meant to comment on it but in my sleepless daze I got carried away in admonishing the others for their untowards behavior...You have been here longer than just about everyone else on this whole site...My hat goes off to you dearheart in your unwavering ability to stay the course these past 3 years...You have my respect and admiration <P>Cjack,<P>Not to nit pick...But I think I am the one who not so eloquently used the relieving the over-hydrated bladder metophor first Just kidding of course...You did share the same sentiments I shared way back on page 1 of this fine example of adult debate we are calling a thread...I only hope others heed our advice...<P>Hey Java!! Good points you made on this...<P>Bill

Bill...<P>Sorry I didn't see your reference to relief earlier!

Cjack,<P>Great minds must think alike! LOL LOL LOL LOL

Well, I say... I just spent the last hour reading and trying to understand this post. Very interesting... my observations are that our true colors have really come out! I have been surprised and relieved by many of the comments here.<P>I had one thought as I was reading... (especially the heated ones) - is this how it feels to be spoken to as the spouse of the person so angry? Egads...! <P>It's hard to not pick sides... but to truly <B>VALUE</B> the diversity of this board... I did happen to pick up on the EXCELLENT thoughts on this - once ya dig through the tough veneer of taking things personally and getting off the issue to judging the person saying things...<P>Anyway, I hope we can continue to rely on a <I>balanced</I> perspective... that's what I come here for anyway. It's such a safe place to put your heart of hearts out here and test them to see and think through the pro's and con's of situations... provides heaps in the arena of discernment and wisdom.<P>Cheers friends!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

LWM,<P>Admittedly, I have not read through all of the responses to this post so what I’m about to share has probably already been covered, but I would just like to share a little from my own experience and opinions.<P>First and foremost, two wrongs do not make a right. Regardless of what your spouse is doing or has done in the past, you must be able to look yourself in the mirror and justify your own actions. My opinions shouldn’t influence you a bit, and what worked for me or for others on this site won’t necessarily work for you. But that’s ok.<P>My wife left me so I too was the BS in my marriage. To the best of my knowledge, there was not another man involved in the demise of our marriage, but regardless of that, I vowed to remain faithful throughout my divorce. Before my wife moved out, I had a discussion with her where I told her that I had not entered into our marriage or our vows lightly and the vows each of took on our wedding day were sacred. I asked that each of us respect those vows until our divorce was honored by the court. I lived up to my word and did not become involved elsewhere until after my divorce was final.<P>I did this for several reasons, but most importantly, I did it for myself. I am a man of my word and of my convictions. I made promises on several levels and was not about to break those just for some physical validation of my self worth. I had the opportunity, but I did not act on it. <P>Even if my wife had been involved in an affair, I would not have felt right “cheating” on her while I was still married. No matter what she did or did not do while still legally married, that is for her to justify and for her to deal with. I know in my head and in my heart, that remaining true to my vows and faithful to my marriage until after the divorce became final was the best thing for me and I have no regrets.<P>You have to do whatever YOU feel is right in any given situation. As long as you can justify to yourself your decisions, then you have done the right thing.<P><BR>TS, <BR>Thanks for acknowledging my sentiments regarding edits to your posts. For people jumping into the conversations later on, it helps us to know how the conversations evolved to certain areas. Can I also say, “YIKES” in regard to your truck’s gearshift comment? I know it’s been two years, but c’mon Stu…how bad can it really be? (For the record, I actually had a 3 year stint with celibacy many years back, so I can kind of relate.) Maybe you just need to invest in some Duracell stock like other’s have expressed in the past? At least <I>those</I> items are designed for such a thing <BR>

J<P>It can be pretty bad ... try closer to 5 years at this point...<P>::<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Hi everyone....<P>And I do mean everyone...<P>I took a breather from this thread. I don't like that my good intentions get misdirected, by myself or others. I do need to get something straight, however.<P>In my first marriage, I was cheated on non-stop. His estimate was something like 20 or more different women. I didn't want a divorce. I wanted him to get counseling. He refused and wanted to divorce me. I said ok.<P>Second marriage. I cheated...in a period of weakness. One night stand. I confessed. Long story (my second H wasn't a saint either) and he divorced me.<P>I seen both sides. Up, down, left, right, you name it. The ONLY thing I've learned from all of this junk is that you have to find a way to walk in peace with your own self. The integrity of your soul is the ONLY thing that noone can take away from you. I've chosen celibacy for the time being in order to find that peace. I've never, ever told anyone that they need to be "celibate". It has been over two years for me, and will most likely be another two years or more...as I've decided to wait until I finish my PhD in order to date.<P>It doesn't bother me when people call me names or disagree with me. I don't need to be right. However, I've come to believe that these "rules" were created for a reason. Not to ruin people's fun. <P>I have to live everyday with the knowledge that, not only did I let my ex-H down, I let myself down. No matter how many "good deeds" I do now, or in the future, that stain on my soul will not be erased. That hurts the most. Whenever I make the choice to do the honorable thing (no matter how hard it might be at the time) I'm never disappointed. <P>The only reason why I'm going over some of these details is because some people are under the impression that I'm "perfect" therefore, it is easy for me to tell them what to do with their life. On the contrary, I have most definately not been perfect and do not want others to suffer the way I've suffered, and will probably continue to suffer for some time. <P>Best wishes,<BR>TS

Jayhawk,<P>forgot to mention the produce in the grocery store <P>While I was in Japan a few weeks ago, I saw a Sake bottle in the liquor store that was shaped like a man's appendage. Apparently, they have ceremonies that celibrate fertility and people walk around in big you-know-what shaped costumes and buy stuff like the Sake bottle I just mentioned. Interesting, huh?