Hello everyone,<P>Heres how yesterday went.<P>Im a wreck right now excuse me if I sound off the wall. Did what JL said. Remembered that list of four things to do. That all went ok, in fact I dont remember too much about after what happened next...<P>He wanted to talk, but said he found it hard. I said lets talk in bed, maybe it will be easier for you if we are more relaxed.<P>We began to kiss, things heated up, and he said let me kiss your neck, and ask me anything. He said he didnt know how to open up but would like to talk. Simple questions I gave. Then, lacking any self control I asked him if he is still seeing her. This was while we were locked in an embrace, very passionate.<P>He said yes. I began to pull away. You told me you would quit that!! You called me a month ago and said you knew it was foolish and wanted to stop!! that all you may need is six months w/o me to want me!! He said no I told you I wouldnt. I said I never asked you called me and volunteered that. I pulled away hard while he tried to hold on.<P>That letter he wrote, about being in love with her somehow didnt hurt too much; I thought he had quit seeing her. And we would be moving away soon.<P>But, now I find out he hasnt. I began to cry so hard, harder than ever. Couldnt even breath through the violent shaking of my upper body. He just lay there. After a half hour I couldnt stop. Went to the couch. He followed me and asked several times if I would come to bed with him. I couldnt even answer him. Ever heard a baby, maybe with colic who has been crying all day? When they finally sleep they make whimpering noises. I couldnt stop it.<P>He layed down next to me and help me. Asked more ifI would go lay down with him. Please please Dara let me hold you, or hold me. <P>I finally got up and went to bed with him, after he attempted to carry me there.<P>Asked me if it was him who made me hurt this bad. Why I said, it doesnt matter. Yes it does he said. It makes a differrence he said. (?)<P>Woke up this am, feeling horrible. Had to leave at 5am. All I could think was that that [censored] really knew how to shut me up for a month. Keep the peace. Tell me he would quit seeing her, and being receptive to me. Even nice .<P>So why Richard I said this am? To shut me up? DO you think of her while you are fu88ing me? Do you feel like you are cheating on her? This "pure innocent love of yours"?<P>I went to work and ended up having to work a double again (nursing shortage, mandatory ot) and came home an hour ago. Wondering what will be tonight. Still havent eaten, he offered to cook for me. No thanks, not hungry. I cant stop this hurting hurting, despair, and helplessness. Knowing how bad he felt for hurting me I was almost hoping we could talk tonight...I cant take anymore. My dad, my mom, now this.<P>Guess what? He fell asleep reading our son a book. And like I would really go wake him up to let him know how destroyed I feel.<P>Jl, as you mentioned before..about him through his pain first, I have tried. I cant overcome this feeling of desparity, and worthlessness to be there for him. Let her be there for him. I cant do it.<P>BR and OVrC's, in the am I am off, I will catch you up on the post I wrote last that I deleted.

delete post<p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited May 29, 2001).]

Hi guys,<P>Well, last night he did wake up, and we talked alittle. But it didnt take long for those darned tears to begin flowing. I suppose I felt a sense of betrayel by him. <P>He held me and comforted me again. I feel so bad about being such a baby lately, but everything seems to be stockpiling. My dad, my mom and finding out hes still seeing her and is in love.<P>Anyway, he offered to take today off school to go out with me to lunch. Went to the Olive Garden and then to a beautiful park surrounded by a lake in Tacoma.<P>We sat by a bench and watched the ducks and goslings and water. Beautiful! We began to talk, and the words came easy. I told him how angry I am at my parents. For never loving me. That in effect, caused me to be unable to love. How they are still elbowing themselves into my life to satisfy their own needs. He is very supportive of me regarding this.<P>Then he said he was angry that I told him yesterday I felt used. I explained that it was a poor choice of words. More like feeling betrayed by him. He said that me feeling used implies to him that all I gave was only out of the expectation that he gives back. There was no unconditional giving or love if I feel used.<P>I said it is easier to give and love even more when he is receptive to it. But I am sincere. I have a pure heart for him, full of an innocent love that will not dissipate.<P>I spoke alot straight from the heart. About me, and wanting to be a good person. Not seeing things so bllack and white.<P>Br, I am having difficulty writing off my dad. I think its a shame when children dont talk to their parents. Wrong ya know? But I also feel by ever talking to him again, or should I say listening to his rambling, I am accepting his behavior.<P>I havent yet read your post detaching with love, but will. I told Rick about that book too. He's never been into self help stuff. Says you cant just read a book to be a good person. But agreed that it may help me with this. Offered to look for it for me.<P>I am realizing so much about myself, and why I've been such a sh*T to him all these years. In a way it helps to know that this is common among children of alcoholics. That I am not such a bad, worthless hopeless person. My parents dont define me. Wow, cant believe this is all coming out.<P>On the bright side, Richard just listened to me. He didnt say to much, but asked if we could go to marraige counseling in TX. WOW!! YIPPEE!!<P>I think he is starting to see the 'real me', not the one that I was before. Emotionless, cruel, thoughtless.<P>Thank you so much, to all who have helped me here. You guys have saved me too many times from myself. And from the despair. Gave me hope, encouraged, kicked me in the butt when needed (always gently, thank you), and generally, been there for me. <P>I care about you all...It amazes me that strangers could actually care for me. Care enough to tell me right from wrong. To correct me. I was never shown love or affection or even concern as a child. Met Rick at a young age, and due to being military, never established close friends. And havent allowed myself to be close to him. So it really confounds me to hear you're care.<P>Thanks guys,<P>Dara

Hi Dara, I'm here today. I'll read your stuff and respond at some point. I've been sick, and very busy. I don't want you to think I'm ignoring you!<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Dara,<P>Well, I'm stunned. You've been through a lot. I find a few parallels between your story and mine. It seems to me that Richard doesn't want to take responsibility for his affair, that you in some way caused his indiscretion. He is somewhat covert about this manipulation as he doesn't want the two of you to start blaming each other. This is typical of people who commit adultery. They don't want to take the heat. They want the other spouse to literally forgive and forget, life goes on, oh blah dee, oh blah dah. Problem is, affairs don't just vanish. They resurface like a cancer, taking both parties hostage on a ride of fury, blame, guilt, and agony. It is wonderful that Richard suggested marriage counseling, and I see that put you on cloud 9. That in itself indicates a good shot at recovery. Choose your therapist wisely.<P>I hear you taking responsibility for your part of the marital problems. Parental influence IS difficult to shake, particularly if they were negative influences. Realization is 1/2 the battle (I just love epiphanies!). Try to not be so hard on yourself. I think Richard needs to treat you better. And if I may offer, your feelings of being "used" may not have been entirely off base. Your husband had an affair. How does that not use you? Richard got angry at your statement not because it wan't fair, but because it was true. Don't take it back or sugar coat it to assuage his ire. He may need to address that in therapy, and it's going to make him feel extremely uncomfortable. Don't take what's not yours, Dara. Draw your line. Show your boundaries. Accept your part with honesty and dignity; we all make mistakes. He'll have to lie the bed he made, too.<P>Take care,<BR>Nell

Dear Dara,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I havent yet read your post detaching with love, but will. I told Rick about that book too. He's never been into self help stuff. Says you cant just read a book to be a good person. But agreed that it may help me with this. Offered to look for it for me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He's right. You can't just read a book to be a better person. And what I am offering you, and what I am suggesting to you is a way of life, not just a book!!<P>I quoted to you from that book because I wanted you to understand that what you have lived and experienced is not a unique thing. That you are the product of an alcoholic household, and that many others have gone before you to find a life of joy, peace, and serenity. Do you want to know how they did it? You can do it too!!<P>But the promises of Al-Anon that I quoted to you in that other thread do require more action than reading a book. It means practicing a 12-step program and applying those principles in all of your life. <P>I can tell you Dara, that even though I didn't grow up with active alcoholism, I lived much of what children of alcoholics experience. And my life has been transformed by the 12 steps. <P>I can sit here today, with my life in a complete shambles, and tell you that I experience serenity frequently. And while I have my off days that I feel pretty yucky, I am for the most part happy. My life is no longer out of control - a neverending crisis, even though the people in my life are still crazy. *I* changed, they didn't. And I am much happier as a result.<P>I think that in order for your marriage to survive, that you need to go to Al-Anon, and get a sponsor, and start working the program. You need to do it for you, and for your marriage, and more importantly for your daughter. <P>What I see in your H's letter is a man who does love you, but desperately wants control of his life. You have lived his life for him all these years, and so it is not surprising that he feels this way.<P>But Dara, DO NOT BEAT YOURSELF UP over this. You did what you had to do to survive. And you did. And you didn't ever learn that it was safe to stop. Learning something new is hard, change is hard, and you didn't even know you needed to change....<P>But now that you know better, you can do better <P>It sounds to me like your husband loves you. He's confused and trying to work out his own issues too.<P>But Dara, he may still be seeing her, but he is planning to move to be with you. And he wants to go to counseling. Love is a decision. And it seems to me that your husband is willing to make that decision.<P>So go read that post on Detachment. And get yourself to a meeting, and if someone asks what topic anyone would like to discuss, stand up and say: BR says I need to learn about Expectations!! <P>I think you need to keep the focus on you for now. Your marriage will have a better chance this way!!<P>(((((hugs))))) BR

Here I am... late as usual. I just do NOT have the internet time like I used to before my H moved to Chicago!<P>Anyway, I immediately was struck by the WISDOM of the location you chose to have a talk! Man, I got a little worried when you suggested going to the bedroom. I hope you remember the difference next time! <P>Wow, you H is coming clean. Don't you feel a little admiration for him attempting to take leadership of his life again?! He's taking a stand - saying "I do have a backbone and I'm not satisfied and I'll be d@mned if I don't do something about this."<P>As Nell said, you have the opportunity to see cslg at your H's request... be careful about your expectations again and choose wisely the therapist.<P>I'm personally worried about what Nell also said about putting up the boundaries and not trying to assuage his anger or offended feelings of you saying you feel used... why because it rings too close to home for me. There are things that set my H off that I'm not sure we'll ever get to the bottom of... if he had an affair - which I tend to not believe nor care about anymore - he'd never admit it now... too much pride and fear of my saying "I told you so." So whatever... but what she says is sound and I'm listening myself and have to really examine what the H says... validate it but just because it's said doesn't mean it's true... just their perspective.<P>Anyway, hang in there and keep on... I know it's hard dealing with all these issues at once... I'm right there with you but somehow they all seem intertwined somehow. You've got some serious FOO issues though and I'm urging you to get some help as BrRs suggests through Al-Anon... I may even check out that book!<P>Cheers and here's to a beautiful day... now let's all go do the <I>right, kindly, and loving</I> thing! TODAY!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Hello Nell, <P>Nell, thank you. Have you read any about the history of my marraige? I am the main reason for its demise.<P>And yes, I am losing self respct on this OW issue, and apologizing all the time for geuine emotions. But to swallow some pride, as I have never done before, to put him up on a pedestal is worth the restoration of us. You see, I have lead a numb, emotionless life always searching for something to make me happy. He tried and tried to give it to me. His needs? I never even knew he had any. She came along and filled them. That I can understand. Not condone, but accept. What I find hard to accept is the deceit that goes with it. And the fact that we are still intimate. While he is 'in love 'with her. And spending time with her. But it has caused confusion, he admits. But I am also very confused. I am infatuated with the prospect of 'us', but OTOH, feel quite inferior, insignificant, ugly, insecure, jealous, and bitterness over his affair. <P>And I cant seem to be able to shake off my hurt to help him heal with the wounds I have inflicted over the years. I am beginning to doubt whether I ever wil be able to.<P>However, with my despair surfacing, he readily comes to me to ease my pain. Something he never did before after 'd-day' in January. He has done a 90 degree turn, but at this point, with all the pain in my life over him, OW, my parents I am petrified that in my own grief I will lose sight of my perspective....<P>Just today, while at lunch, searing jealousy overcame me, and I thought I HAVE TO see what the OW looks like. How they interact. Do they hold hands in between classes at school? Does he kiss her? DO they sit studying in the library staring dreamily into each others eyes? Have they had sex?<P>I am calling a PI tomorrow. I know, no good will come of it. But I have to know. As insecure as I am, if we ever make it, I cant spend the rest of my life wondering as I look into his eyes if she feels better on his eyes. Or is he more attracted to her, , blah blah, all that negativity.<P>What to do?<P>Oh! My life seems to be one crisis after the other here guys. I am sorry if I am wearing you all out. I love the honesty given to me here, the frankness, the wisdom of calling me on my foolishness, and mostly, the love. <P>BR, and OvrC's, will write back in the am. <P>Love,<BR>Dara<p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited May 28, 2001).]

Dara,<P>I have never posted directly to you in the past but this thread struck me...<P>You may still have a chance!! Read surving an affair andd all you can about lovebusters...<P>Did deep sister I think you still have some fight left in you...<P>It is Plan-A time in a big way...<P>You can do it!!<P>Get some counceling through Steve Harley!! He will help you devise a plan and we'll be your armchair help!!<P>You can do this!!<P>Bill

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WilliamJ:<BR><B>Dara,<P>I have never posted directly to you in the past but this thread struck me...<P>You may still have a chance!! Read surving an affair andd all you can about lovebusters...<P>Did deep sister I think you still have some fight left in you...<P>It is Plan-A time in a big way...<P>You can do it!!<P>Get some counceling through Steve Harley!! He will help you devise a plan and we'll be your armchair help!!<P>You can do this!!<P>Bill</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>"Dig deep sister you still have some fight left in you."<P>Very astute observation William...I dont think I have it anymore. You named it actually, my weariness. I dont think surviving an affair is the right book for me. Maybe something along the lines of surviving after being betrayed and left and abandoned..After tonight I think I know why he feels so bad about my hurt. Its just to alleviate his guilt. He never responds when there is underlying anger like tonight. Its all about his guilt complex.<P>I'll explain what happened in a bit...<P>Thanks,<BR> Dara<P>

Another trip on my old friend the coaster.....<P>Today I have had this overwhelming feeling of jealousy and compulsiveness to find out who she is. I hate her. New emotion for me actually.<P>Today, after putting in 60 hours this week, and two doubles, came home in a bad mood. Exausted, stressed about the move, envious of her, blah blah. I apologized to Richard for being so grumpy. He went to put on a movie, and I asked him if I could ask him a few questions, share some concerns of mine. <P>One of them was a deep one. I have been having some GYN problems, which could be confused with a yeast infec. But I never get yeast infections. I need to know if he has had sex with her. So I came right out and asked. Told him my concerns about my health. HIs response? I've already told you no. "How many times are going to ask me? What more do you want from me?"<P>I said, well, you lied about 1. her being married 2. her having kids 3. you volunteered to stop seeing her but you still are per your admission 4. you called her a really good friend for two months<P>Everything you told me about your relationship with her has been a lie that I have discovered. And all you can say is what more do you want me to tell you? This affects my health, and you wont even give me the time of day to respect that. Or to even take the time to convince me if must about this. I told him that yes, this is an expectation of him, maybe an unwarrunted one, but I deserve to know the truth. It affects me. He just stared at me w/o a word. Like I am crazy. Then well go get tested than. A standard gyn exam does not include a full screen for std's if you are married. Unless you come right out and share your doubts with the MD. I tod him this is humiliating at the very least to me.<P>He started the movie.<P>It seems the only time he gives a dam about my pain is when I am in utter despair because of him. And I am beginning to believe that it is only to relieve his guilt. Thats it, there I said it. I feel so alone and rejected, even by my parents. <P>I dont think I can keep 'eating it' to help him. Taking whatever he throws at me, and denying my pain to ease his. Like Nell pointed out, with the issue of feeling used.<P>I asked him yesterday if he had given any thought about staying with me in TX. I had invited him to, said it would be ok. Opened up, and told him that maybe I was trying to be controlling by having his desire to live with me as a gage to determine if he wants our marraige. Told him I understood he didnt want to live with his mom. He has said it would be weird, or akward. I said it will be just like now, we are living together.<P>Yesterday he said no. Why? Because it will be too hard there with his family around. HUH? What do you mean too hard? Would it be harder, for everyone to see me living in his moms house, while lives with his mom? No, it would be easier that way. What the hell?<P>He is more concerned with what his family thinks of him. Marraige counseling my foot. If it was his pride at stake, what if we get back together after counseling? And he moves in with me? What will his family think then?<P>Just like 6 weeks ago he called me, and told me he would staop seeing her, and that he thought all he needed was 6 months or so before he missed me and would want me back. Mission accomplished. He shut me up. I no longer walked around depressed and insecure. I just loved anf loved him. <P>Now I am sure thats what the marraige counseling thing was about. Shut me up again, give me false hope so I am not so hurt and despondent all the time until we leave. He can walk around here feeling no guilt While he spends everyday at school with her.<P>I cant mask my feelings any more for the sake of his healing. Because I cant give him that healing, only God can heal his heart. <P>And I am tired of being manipulated by him and lied to just to stave off his feelings of guilt. Because he cant stand to see me cry over him.<P>I have so much going on right now, with all this crap with my dad. And feeling this pain in my heart over of how neglected I was as a child and trying to heal from it.<P>I cant go on plan Aing, and feeling taken advantage of by him. He gives me hope when he knows I am crashing, only to reject me the same day.<P>Or like tonight, I tell him I concerned about std's, and I am having pelvic pain...Only to hear what else do you want me to tell you? Even if I lied about the other things, I said no about sex.<P>Yeah right. Like he would fall in love with her, some virgim or something, to leave me, and has never kissed her or had sex with her.<P>I do feel used.<P>Dara

Hi Dara...<P>I'm so sorry about the medical situation. Again, he may fear your reaction if he really told you the truth - given your reaction in the bedroom the other night. I canNOT imagine walking a mile in your shoes right now but I'm praying for you. Praying for God's peace in your life... you're trying so hard yourself but you will soon find out you no longer have the resources to continue doing this.<P>How is your faith? Are you getting in the Word or meeting with other Christian women? When I had a spiritual mentor walking with me for two years... it was the most fruitful time of my life. I'm missing it right now but have been reading daily myself. Please, realize that you can't do it alone nor does God want you to... He wants to sustain you and to be your peace... He wants to be the water that will satisfy your thirst for peace... and only he can do it... you're confronted on all sides and you MUST trust in Him if this is your goal.<P>You're wearing down... just ask him DAILY to bless you this day and to give you opportunity to love others even if it's through a smile at the hospital(or wherever you work) and to have Him keep His hand upon you and to guard your heart for the day to NOT do harm or say anything that my harm others... This is a daily prayer of mine for myself, my kids and my H. God will honor this... he Will bless you even through a healthy dose of peace!<P>Take care my dear... you need sleep also and I see you're online in the middle of the night. Remember your daughter and be all you can be for her (it is a girl isn't it?).<P>Nicole<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Dara,<P>Your in my thoughts and prayers. I remember not to long ago I was really in the dumps and you picked me up. If there is anything I can do please let me know.<P>Love, Bill<P>PS. Put on those pink fuzzie slippers maybe they'll make you feel better.<P>------------------<BR>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-<p>[This message has been edited by LostHusband (edited May 29, 2001).]

Hi Dara,<P>I just wanted you to know I'm thinking of you, praying for you, and sending healing energy your way for the pelvic pain, and the emotional torment you are going through.<P>(((((Dara)))))<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Wow, Dara, your life makes most roller-coasters seem downright tame. But riding a roller-coaster is a very different experience from looking at it from a comfortable distance, and I'd have to say that looking at your situation from the outside, I think that what your husband has been saying and doing makes a lot of sense; just as what you have been saying and doing makes a lot of sense.<P>To you, it seems that your husband is kind one moment and cruel the next. To me, he looks very consistent. Unfortunately, I can't tell you what exactly is going on inside him, because there is more than one possible self-consistent interpretation. But one thing I'm convinced of: your husband loves you and there is real hope for your marriage.<P>Both of you are just beginning to understand yourselves and each other, and this leads to a lot of confusion. For example, you felt "used", and your husband felt angry because you felt "used". Who was right? Well, both of you. Fact is, you feel how you feel, and there's no right or wrong about it. But beyond that, you both had legitimate <I>reasons</I> for feeling the way you did.<P>Only maturity can allow you to reconcile the facts and feelings effectively, and unfortunately maturity comes only by going through an experiential process. There are no shortcuts, and the process is unavoidably painful.<BR>