Hi all,<P>As I continue this evolutionary process called divorce recovery, I am, at times, surprised with the line of thinking that meanders through the mush I call my brain... <P>First, a little background. Exjerkface had affair #1 (7 month long lying-fest) five years ago...we separated for about 5 or 6 weeks, reconciled and moved away from OW to "start fresh." Affair #2 started somewhere around last June as close as I can pinpoint it...ex moved out in August and we were divorced May 4th.<P>Now, after the first A, I thought we were going to be one of the miracle couples that make it. But deep down, I had huge issues with trust that never really faded...and, in some ways, they led to a viscious cycle of me doubting him, him feeling constantly under the microscope which he then resented and so on...<P>But I have come to realize that THAT "reconciliation" robbed me of who I was...to reconcile meant I had to live in a marriage in which I didn't feel complete trust, where I worried about whether any one particular disagreement or remark might send him back out there again. 5 years of my self-esteem, confidence and even womanhood being doubted or challenged everyday. And I never really realized it or saw it until our separation this last year during which the idea of reconciliation was never even approached by him. I was finally free of the albatross I had voluntarily hung around my neck in the name of keeping my family together.<P>When I tell people I am finally feeling back to my old self again, they naturally assume I mean pre-separation self. But what I really mean is the me who existed before my illusions of marriage were shattered the first time. Maybe even the me who existed before I married him...I'm not sure since that was sooooooo long ago.<P>All this analysis feels right...but it also seems to run contrary to my own beliefs about the sanctity of marriage, the sacredness of the vows and how I value not being a quitter. I guess, somehow, it feels wrong to begin to feel good, positive things come out of divorce.<P>Do any of you feel this way? Is this just part of the cycle? Wow, a lot of introspection for a Tuesday...<P>Comments?<P>------------------<BR>I am woman...hear me roar...okay - meow...okay - purr? Hey, I'm working on it.

Oh yes, I feel this way - absolutely positively!<P>In fact, I wrote a thread about just this subject about a month ago. <P>I just got my hands on journals I have written in over the last seven years... and let me tell you that I was shocked at what I read.<P>My ex-H's affairs of the 80's were terrible, looking back, but I "got over" them and I also thought we would be a success story. We even had a marriage renewal ceremony! <P>His later affairs were the final insult, with some abuse in between {slight physical, very emotional and verbal}. I normalized everything and believed that we could make it anyhow.<P>I don't have any words of wisdom, as I am finally realizing that rehashing all of this is causing more pain that good... but those darned journals were sure a slap in the face. I have been so unhappy for so long... I never really did "get over it" and what it all did to me.<P>(((((On*My*Own)))))<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Same here. I wanted so badly to reconcille when D-day first happened and then for 7 months afterwards. Now with us being seperated for what is going on month 4 I look back at the times we kept "reconcilling" and all I can remember is self-doubt and loathing, constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop. I have to wonder if we did really reconcille would it have stayed that way? Most likely, a breach of trust that large and overreaching is very hard to mend and knowing my stbx as I do I know he would not have taken the steps necessary to ease my distrust.<BR> Now, with the emotions reaching a plateu and with me feeling more and more capable of makikng it on my own I'm finding parts of myself I forgot about or never developed during my marriage. There's a lot of reasons for that; complacency on my part, living with someone who was very critical of me and my abilities, living with someone who was very emotionally needy and pushing my own goals aside in favor of his. Not all his fault, I did it without complaint but I can say now with complete certainty he held me back. I also realize that many of my EN's were not being met and I wasn't as happy as I may have felt I was at the begining of this whole mess. Hindisght being 20/20 and all.<BR> Good will come out of my divorce. It was not the path I chose nor would I have chosen it to fix our problems but it's what I've been given and I need to recognize the good within the bad. It's the only way to come out of this on top.

Hey, my first wife led me through 2 years of lies. No matter what I did she kept on lying to me about an affair. I got so bad that I didn't trust her to go to the mail box. So don't feel like you were the only one that distrusted. Once that kind of trust is gone it's really gone for good. No matter how hard you try it never comes back.

Lisa, <P>is TRUST an intellectual, thinking activity,<P>OR<P>is TRUST a feeling activity, where you just don't feel comfortable, but are not sure why?<P>sWIFTTy<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jimmyztime:<BR><B>Hey, my first wife led me through 2 years of lies. No matter what I did she kept on lying to me about an affair. I got so bad that I didn't trust her to go to the mail box. So don't feel like you were the only one that distrusted. Once that kind of trust is gone it's really gone for good. No matter how hard you try it never comes back. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I agree 100%, and that opinion was a long time coming. You NEVER can regain the trust COMPLETELY. <P>Oh, I guess if they were "good" for years and years... all I know is that deep in the back of my mind the inklings lingered, and the questions remained.<P>I'm sure you understand that this flies in the face of the whole Marriage Building philosophy.<P><p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited May 29, 2001).]

On*My*Own,<P>Our stories have a common thread. Affair, reconciled, 4.5 years later back to OW#1 with at least 5 EA in the last 2 years. And he wonders why he still doesn't feel the same about me? DUH!!!<P>I to felt a great sense of rediscovering myself a few weeks ago. I realized that the reconciliation process had robbed me of me. I did everything for my stbx without regard for my own needs. I to thought I was happy because we had survived the affair and made it. <P>I always felt after reconciliation that I was walking on eggshells. I felt that I had to be perfect or else be judged against the fantasy of life with the OW. STBX never held back in telling me how beautiful he thought actresses and super models were knowing full well it hurt my esteem. Fine admire them but you don't have to gush about them to me!<P>Anyway I digress, it is not wrong to feel good about yourself. You did not break your vows your ex did. In this day and age of no fault we aren't given much choice but to accept the D no matter what our beliefs. Not your fault at all!<P>Go feel good about yourself, you are a good person with strong beliefs and someone who deserves happiness! <P>Take Care.<P>ps how are the vegas plans coming?

You know, I guess I'm thinking of more than just the trust issue exactly...I'm referring more to all the fallout of what an affair does to the BS...self-esteem issues, undermining you're confidence in yourself, making you second guess your own judgement, loss of innocense, etc. etc. As long as I was with the man that brought those negatives into my life, I think I was in someway going to be subjected to them...pretty much daily...either consciously or unconciously.<P>I am in no way saying every reconciliation is like this - but MINE was. Ex had no real desire to go down a path of self-discovery and figure out why he did what he did...he just wanted to forget it and never face it again (which we all know just begins a path for history to repeat itself). I am not trying to excuse my part in him losing interest in me - I just don't believe he reconciled for the same reasons as I did. His reason was not wanting to be seen as the bad guy by his family and friends.<P>Unlike Nyneve, this rehashing doesn't bring up pain for me - it really just helps me see why ex and I grew so far apart over the last five years...I think I was subconsciously pulling away from him so it wouldn't hurt so much when the other shoe dropped...it didn't work, for the record. <P>Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...<P>Lisa

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>Lisa, <P>is TRUST an intellectual, thinking activity,<P>OR<P>is TRUST a feeling activity, where you just don't feel comfortable, but are not sure why?<P>sWIFTTy</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Sometimes, sWIFTTy, it's just an exercise in futility...<P>But, to answer your question I choose "none of the above"...in my view Trust is a verb...something you choose to do...based directly on feelings of security, intuition, acceptance, reliability, accountability, etc.<P>It's kind of like the fear of heights happening because you've fallen down a big rock wall you've climbed...you might climb up there again...but you're a lot more cautious and it just doesn't seem like as much fun as it once did.<P>Lisa<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by On*My*Own:<BR><B>It's kind of like the fear of heights happening because you've fallen down a big rock wall you've climbed...you might climb up there again...but you're a lot more cautious and it just doesn't seem like as much fun as it once did.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Great analogy! Trust is something you <I>do</I>, not really something you <I>believe</I> or <I>feel</I>. But it's sad to lose the naivete.<P>Trust can only be <I>given</I> once.<BR>

Oh OMO your ex and my stbx are sooooooo alike! YUCK <P>Our reconciliations from the first affair are so similar. Your feelings are my feeling exactly!

OK guys, lets work it backwards:<P>Trust is a noun or a verb, in this case, according to Random House: the noun is 1. belief in and reliance on the integrity, strength, ability, surety, of a person or thing. 2. confident expectation of something. the verb, In-transitive by the way, 14. to have rely upon, or place confidence in someone or something.<P>However, to come to this belief or confidence that a person is trustworthy, is the basis of your decision an intellectual one, meaning, reviewing the tapes, and seeing a logical pattern of trust, or is it one based upon feelings that the relationship intangibles give the feeling of trustworthiness?<P>The reason i ask, is that if you rely on the feeling, then it is subjective, and you may draw an incorrect conclusion based upon the day, the time and the star alignment. You may even draw an incorrect conclusion based upon similar activities and patterns. (My X did that!) If it is an intellectual activity, then it is based upon past actions and lack of evidence to reject the null hypothesis, there is no reason not to trust.<P>So that is why i ask, if the basis of the decision determines whether someone can begin with trust with a new person more easily or not. One requires time to get to know the person, and make comparisons with other situations of familiarity, etc to generate the appropriate feeling, or the other requires to extend trust and observe, extent and observe and mentally mark off the number times the person has been trustworthy.<P>One can start over anytime, the other has some latent disadvantages.<P>GDP, i think i disagree with that statement, as per definitions. a belief is not an action, it is a state of being. and trust is a belief, or state of being.<P> <p>[This message has been edited by WhenIfindthetime (edited May 29, 2001).]

I think, for me, it would be much easier to trust someone new. Someone without the history of betraying and abandoning me.<P>The "fall" analogy is interesting. If you develop paralytic acrophobia, you'll never go up the wall again. If you go up with minor acrophobia, you'll exhaust yourself hanging on to every handhold for dear life. If you go up knowing what caused the fall in the first place, determined not to make the same error, develop very good situational awareness and can learn to "trust" your climbing partner, you stand a pretty good chance of topping out.<P>If you are afraid of falling, you probably will. Self fulfilling prophecy thing. The thing to remember is you aren't supposed to try "summiting K2" on your first ascent. If you are with a new "climbing partner", the first thing you do is get used to each others climbing style. You learn to communicate effectively, you plan your route, allow for contingencies, etc. One climber can't lead every "pitch". You start out with small climbs. Experience slowly builds confidence in the other's abilities and judgement, and over time develops into trust.<P>Just like a relationship, huh? <P>The point is, I've fallen off that face and my belaying partner let me go. I don't want to climb with her again, because the trust is destroyed. Not my ability to trust per se, but rather, my abiltiy to trust "her".<P>So I'll just continue soloing for now, and get myself back to where I am comfortable with the mountain again. And if I find another partner, I'll allow myself to learn to trust her slowly and gradually, and try to build my level of trustworthiness to her the same way.<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again<p>[This message has been edited by c00ker (edited May 30, 2001).]

An interesting subject... I've been reflecting on <I>TRUST</I> for a while. In fact, I cannot find anywhere in the bible where it says to trust another person (except one). It does say, however, over and over and over again to BE trustworthy. If we all followed this principle, it would be redundant to say trust... because it would be a non-issue. On the contrary, the bible says put your trust ONLY in God... not in wo/man.<P>Now, back to the exception... 1 Cor 13 <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects,<B> always trusts,</B> always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We cannot love like this unless it's the Spirit of God in us enabling us. It just isn't possible and that's the point of the list... God's love through us can enable us to be like the above. In other words, trust is possible if we're submitted to God's Grace. It's not about us. But there is a balance of trusting/loving and throwing your pearls to swine - as Jesus says... so have boundaries but never stop looking for ways to love/trust. Grace and peace to us all ...<P>Cheers,<BR>Nicole<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by c00ker:<BR><B>I think, for me, it would be much easier to trust someone new. Someone without the history of betraying and abandoning me.<P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>...and therein lies the rub...<P>I very much agree, and of course, it is well known that I did just this... I am engaged to someone who has no history of betraying or abandoning me. <P>After {at least} five betrayals from my ex-H, and years of pain {although yes, I can claim good years in there too - soas not to say it was "all bad"} it is quite amazing to realize that this person has done nothing to cause me pain. I know that life is full of pain, and it is something we must live through and learn to grow through, but yet... it is, as someone said above, an exercise in futility. Some pain can NOT be put aside and bottled up. I found this out the hard way! I guess I kind of see it like a basement pantry ~ you know how things are jarred down in the dank room, and you only go down there when you need something... the pain of betrayal was down there, and I {and my ex too, for that matter} could see it in the jar, but ignored it. Years later, when he cheated again, those three jars {the first affairs} were reopened and they reeked. <P>I think one affair might be able to be orgiven and "forgotten"... but when you begin to add one on top of another it becomes impossible. It colors simply everything in life.<P>I felt fat, ugly, worthless... and I wondered what I had done to deserve it all. The ego took a horrible blow. Like I said above, looking through old journals was such a slap in the face! I was a classic abused wife, and didn't realize it. I gave every excuse in the book for my then-H's actions {affairs, how he treated me, how he treated the children, workaholism}. <P>Infidelity turns you {whether you are the betrayed or the betrayer} into a different person. Late in my marriage I became the infidel, and it only added more pain to an already horrible situation. There is something very, very wrong with a marriage that has infidelity in it. Sometimes it is the worst kind of wake up call - like cancer. And, like cancer, sometimes it can heal, and sometimes you die. And I guess, sometimes you get surgery, cut out the cancer, and go on with a scar, or a missing piece {like an amputation}, or a new piece {like a rebuilt breast}, and heal. <P>I am now a statistic. I am one of those who have the blot of divorce on her record. I had a 20 year marriage go down the toilet. Such a waste, I know. <P>But I will NOT let this define me. I am not a fat, ugly, worthless person. <P>I choose healing, and it could not be accomplished within the confines of my ex-marriage.<P>Simple as that.<P><BR> <p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited May 30, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:<BR><B>GDP, i think i disagree with that statement, as per definitions. a belief is not an action, it is a state of being. and trust is a belief, or state of being.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yeah, I over-simplified. (Well, you don't think I'll actually admit to being <I>wrong</I>, do you? )<P>There's an old analogy for faith I've heard many times: you can say you have faith that a chair will hold your weight, but until you actually sit in it, you have not acted on your faith. What good is an inactive faith? It doesn't mean anything except perhaps to give you warm fuzzies.<P>I think trust is pretty much the same thing. Is it the warm fuzzies, the "belief in"? Or is it the "reliance on", the making of choices in the "confident expectation" that you won't be let down?<P>Love "always trusts" because love is all about opening up yourself and taking risks. You don't take a risk when you <I>know</I> the result will be negative. You take a risk because you hope the result will be positive, and somewhere inside you <I>expect</I> that result.<BR>