I'm pretty sure my H is still lying about the extent of his (now over) emotional affair. I've pushed, prodded, cajoled, made a safe environment and been rational -- not at the same time -- but none of it has worked. He just says he never liked her "that way" and they were just friends. Fine. I still know he's lying but also know that he will never own up to it. He is a major conflict avoider, needless to say.<P>My problem is, how do you accept this? Has anyone been lied to like this and just accepted it? It eats at me to know that he will never tell me the truth, even though he has made every commitment to our marriage and is now an almost completely changed man...except for the conflict avoidance. How can I bring myself to let it go, and be lied to without letting it drive me crazy?<P>I'm not a very forgiving person either, as I'm sure some of you have surmised, but I can guarantee you I would forgive him on the spot if he was straight with me. It's the not knowing that kills me, for some reason.<P>I'd appreciate it if any of you know any mental tricks for dealing with being lied to and not letting it take over your mind.

Do you think you'll ever know enough? My counselor just today called trying to move forward while dwelling on the affair like running with a parachute behind you--you just get that dragging feeling. Forgiveness is the key.<P>My H has no memory for dates, times & events and has lied so much that he is confused about what/when things actually happened & what was the lie to me. He has given me details he is sure about.<P>I suppose it depends on the affair, but the details he has given me have sometimes been very graphic and have just made the images sharper. Some people say that they have been relieved by the reality. This affair's reality was very intense and I don't think I need to know anymore. And even though there are some things I would like the answers to, I don't know if the answers would help me heal.

Hi Lor<P>Good points, and I intend to get the forgiveness workbook.<P>I don't care so much about dates and times, but for heaven's sake, he must know if he liked/loved her or not! He just keeps saying he didn't, but how could he not? And why won't he admit this to me? I just don't get it.<P>Thanks for responding.

I am out the door right now, but I can tell you what I told my H when he said he didn't think he did, If he did, he would be with her now, If you love someone, you can't leave them, that is why he stayed with me!!!!!!! This is something that I have always held on to. May we talk soon? Gotta Go! <BR><P>------------------<BR>"TIME" :)<P><BR>

You cheered me up, Almost Happy. And yes, I would love to talk to you sometime <P>I have ICQ, let me know if you want to chat there or via email!<P>- Cristalle

For me it's about putting things in perspective.<P>I look at it like this - What is more important? A) moving past the hurt and unhappiness by improving yourselves and rebuilding a stronger union, or B) driving yourself nuts about something that is in the past and that you don't want as a part of your healing and growing relationship.<P>In other words, for me, it is better to lump the OW and all the details surrounding it as a bad choice by H. PERIOD!!! If H is wanting to work on the marriage - then all your efforts and concentrations should be on that goal.<P>Whatever energy that you use thinking of any part of the "bad choice" is basically being wasted instead of being put to good use.<P>I don't think that he will admit anything if he hasn't yet. Why? Who knows. Could be that he truly believes what he says. Could be that he can't admit it to himself. Could be that he wants to forget it and move on.<P>Whatever the reason - the reality of your situation is that you can't get water out of a stone, so to speak!!<P>He knows that what he's done (no matteer how you or he defines it) has hurt you!! It has hurt the marriage. That's the bottom line : what it did not what you call it!!<P>But the real cause of the "bad choice" is where your focus should be. Concentrate on the WHY's of the problems that led up to it and follow the Harley guidelines and some day when you're old and gray, sitting on your front porch, holding hands - he just might turn to you and tell you what you think you need to hear now. It won't matter then and if you think about it - it isn't as important, even now, as it is to use all of the brainroom for thinking about each other's needs in stead of using it for figuring out ways to get him to say something!! <P>Yes, lies are not acceptable - I completely agree. It's obvious however that this is part of infidelity and you can only work from now on with complete honesty!!! That honesty doesn't always cover past actions, but as long as it covers future actions then that is what you want for a better marriage.<P>I hope this has helped some, kind of rambling, but I want to show you that you can get beyond this roadblock by changing your perspective on what is important for now!!<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba <P>

Cristalle,<P>You need to talk to Trustntruth.<P>If I am not mistaken her husband still has not admitted to the affair.<P>My husband thank God only told me the truth and tries really hard to be honest. <P>Like Lor said he has no ability on dates times etc. So some of it is really legitamate. Also they told so many lies during the affair they forget all the said.<P>Occassionaly things will trickle out re: the affair that he told me differently. It hurts and in a day or so...Usually a good nights sleep I am okay.<P>Unfortunately today was one of those days. Looking forward to tomorrow though. <P>Every day there is a new attitude with the sunrise. Fresh and a new beginning.<P>Hope this helps.<BR><P>------------------<BR>God bless you and all of us.<P>Samantha<BR>

Hi,<BR> <BR>Been lied to by H, been lied to by ow about many things and used for information beyond belief! How do you get beyond this? It either consumes and destroys you or you deal with the forgiveness. Right now I have made a committment to pray for the ow every time I start to think and obsess about her and my h! Trust me when I say this is not a natural reaction! I'd much rather rip her eyes out <P>My h has been pretty good about sharing what I ask since discovery. He too is a major conflict avoider,so I have to accept that he is not like me and will not bring up things that he knows will cause conflict. If at all possible he will avoid.<P>Maybe your h is telling you the truth. It is quite possible that he was not in love with this person on line. Yet! These kinds of secret affairs set themselves up for something illicit to happen. I truly believe it is just a matter of time. Look at believing in your husband and not trying to discover him in a lie. What kind of lawyer are you? A prosecutor or defender? Do you need to know every dark little detail to be a good defender? See what happens when you start defending your h with the information you have now. Is it possible that this woman was just like a male friend on line? I don't get how that can happen but online friendships can be pretty genderless!

Cris,<BR>Would love to talk.<P>I'll give you my ICQ when you e-mail me. <P>------------------<BR>"TIME" <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Almost Happy (edited September 02, 1999).]

Cristalle, I'm in a very similar place, so I'm glad you started this topic. I really related to your other post about needing to know the truth. It's easy to become consumed with it all.<P>I think what is the most scary about the not knowing is asking yourself how you can trust this person again. I'm not talking about getting the details, I'm just talking about admitting to some kind of affair. <P>Right now I'm getting through this by telling myself that this will be addressed later as we go through the process of rebuilding our marriage. I expect that we will agree to be completely honest with each other, as outlined by Dr. Harley. If this doesn't happen, I don't know how I can build a good marriage with my H.<P>For now, what seems to be working is this: When my H insists that he hasn't ever cheated I simply say "I know that you haven't been honest with me about your relationships with other women." Enough said. This stops him in his tracks. The fact is, I've caught him lying to me about other women. He can say there was nothing happening until he's blue in the face. He can't argue this one little fact. So, it REALLY doesn't matter if they were "just friends." It was still inappropriate for him to lie.<P>I've accepted that the worst has probably happened, and have told him I can forgive him. This brings me some peace.<P>Good luck,<BR>Lizbeth

Dear Crystalle,<P>Perhaps you realize the courts are not a place of justice, although that is what we are led to believe? It isn't a place of justice - but it is a place of decision. Unfortunately, that is where you are at with your marriage. <P>Maybe you want your marriage to be a fair place to live, but unfortunately - human nature dictates that people aren't perfect, and life "aint fair". <P>So, although you may want fairness (ie: honesty preliminary to forgiveness)- as my dad puts it so crudely: Want in one hand $@#% in another, and see which fills up faster.<P>That is the darn bottom line. You may never have honesty. If you never have honesty, can you move on? Yes. Absolutely. <P>Now, in a little more fair marriage - you get complete confession and repentence - and you find it deep within your heart to forgive, and then you move on. That was the formula (I thought) I had to have to move on. <P>So I asked myself: What would I do if he admitted he was having an affair? Ahhhh- the admission was for my benefit, for my emotions. I would then forgive him, and work on the marriage. What is different now? I decided the outcome was more important than the method. So - I forgive him and move on. Because - forgiveness was absolute to moving on, and moving on was absolute to restoring my marriage. And you know what? The emotion takes care of itself. That feeling of needing to know has subsided. I console myself of not having that need met by believing that some day, as Sheba put it - maybe when we are old and gray we will have that talk. <P>So, I ask you: If your husband told you right now that he loved the ow, or he liked the ow - how would that change the outcome? Would that forgiveness come, and then the moving on? Do not delay what you CAN do because someone else doesn't do their part. You are responsible for your actions! Do your part, and hope that some day he does his too.<P>Decide to forgive and move on towards true recovery and healing. It is much better than this bump in the road!!!<P>

Hi Cristalle,<BR>I am not sleeping this AM and it's because I'm thinking of you. I think you are about where I was 2 weeks ago. I was ready to give up. H would not talk to me. Has shut me out for hours and days at a time and all the while I am going insane with questions. Why? being the one which stayed uppermost in my mind and mouth. How could you do something you knew would hurt me? What was missing that you couldn't get from me? Why was SHE more fun to be with? ARE YOU NUTS? Listen Cris, he never answered any of my questions and in addition he was angry. HE was angry! He was controlling everything. He was the one who made all the choices that had us on the ropes. I decided I would not ask anymore questions and even though it drives me crazy wanting to know I was going to regain some of my sanity in spite of him. My 31 year old son who is a single parent said, "Remember mom, he's a man." What?! Men excuse for their self-indulgent behavior by saying they are men. Bull! I love my H but he calls all the shots because he's THE MAN. Now don't misunderstand, my H is very non-chauvanistic. That was the quality I loved best about him when we met. But........he is a testosterone toting male. He likes to thinks so anyway......which means that he fits into the "Man Show" poll which states that 78% of all men watch scrambled porn. I am too old and too tired to play any more games. I hope you can get over the question period and start taking care of you Cristalle. He is protecting himself from the quilt he feels. At least that's what my H says now that I am fine, (he thinks). I am not fine but I want to be in control of myself at the very least. I have told him I will never let him see me cry again. And for 2 weeks now he hasn't. And the strange thing is I really haven't felt so good in a long time. He is the most intelligent person I have ever known, but he cannot control me and my feelings if I don't allow it. It seemed impossible when I started it but it has gotten easier every day. Now he calls me in the middle of the day to tell me he misses me. I won't ever be hurt again and I know I lost something I might never regain.........but he's a man. Can't live with 'em can't bury 'em in the backyard. And women do the same things with a different excuse. Bless you Cris......I am going to bed now. I hope you can get over the anquish I know you are suffering. Sure makes you question your self esteem huh? Thinking about you and hoping you can find your level ground.<BR>Hugs, Karen<P>------------------<BR>alleyoop<BR>

<BR><p>[This message has been edited by alleyoop (edited September 02, 1999).]

Crystall, i think we married the same man!! My H is conflict avoider. He will tell half-truths. He won't admit to have been in love with her (which is hard to believe) why would it have been so hard to let go. The only way I got the truth about anything was by talking to the OW. She told me everything. (She didn't know about me either, thought I was just the jealous ex)! But when she did know and when he chose to be with me she kept seeing him giving him ultimatums (sp?). But when that didn't work that is when she finally decided to be a "woman" about it and tell me that they were still in contact! I was devasted! How could someone treat the person the claimed to be in love with, with such hateful actions!! I stayed with him, though he hates me to bring it up, wants to sweep it under the rug. We haven't been to counseling yet. He has agreed to go, but I think he will always be a person that hides things from me. Sometimes I think I am starting to accept that that is what he is. And I don't know if realizing that is good or bad for me. I get very physical when I get angry and I have to learn not to let his actions control my emotions anymore. I am a very VENGEFUL and SPITEFUL person and I am trying not to be now (though it is hard). I think what stops me is that I am afraid if he ever found out that he wouldn't forgive me and start/continue cheating again and then the cycle will never end. It's in my head everyday, everyminute. Sure we still have good times, but it always pops up in my mind, even during our love-making. He has a way of making you feel like you are very special, but then his actions may me think that I have married Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde! just venting with Cristylle! MAYA I would like your help, believe it or not! lol

Cris, I've got the same problem: "Just a friend," yada yada...then I have to watch them make goo-goo eyes at each other and watch her treat me like sh*t, watch him take her up to OUR bedroom "to see the cats", watch him empathize with her over everything and not give a damn about my feelings. Doesn't he wonder what I talk about with the therapist every week, and why I'm spending $320 a month on this, and it just HAPPENS to coincide with his current job, that SHE got him?<P>My H is a conflict avoider too, as am I. If you read my latest post, you'll see that my situation is likely to come to a head this weekend. I have already noted train schedules for where we're going so I can cut out and come home, if necessary.<P>Is your H still in touch with his "friend"? Mine is, and that's the problem. I think if she would disappear off the face of the earth, I could deal with the other challenges of being married to him. But putting up with this crap just empties the tank.

Hi Cristalle,<P>I am glad that you have brought up the lies and the truth, resentment, and forgiveness subjects.<P>I have found that Dr. Harley's advice on honesty in His Needs, Her Needs and on this website is really important here. He also goes on in Love Busters about dishonesty.<P>I have found that his advice about total honest is what I need in my marriage. I have done a history for my H and he is slowly doing one for me. I need to know how he has lived in the past to keep myself from believing lies in the future, if there are any. My H is not a talker either, but when I start a conversation about our relationship we usually follow through without any anger or pain and he feels better afterward. He has had to learnt to talk and to discuss the scary things to get over the fear of not talking.<P>I don't need the sordid details but I do need to know the what, where, and when so I know what I have been up against and could possibly be again (Even Dr. Harley is honest when he says that the mistakes we make in our past can be made again in one way, shape or form.).<P>I hope that this helps.<BR>Hugs and Prayers, Thoughtful

Hi everyone. Sorry I've taken so long but I took something to help me sleep last night and just woke up now!<P>You have all given me so much food for thought, and so much good advice. I'd like to respond to all of you individually..<P>Sheba:<P>You said:<P>"I don't think that he will admit anything if he hasn't yet. Why? Who knows. Could be that he truly believes what he says. Could be that he can't admit it to himself. Could be that he wants to forget it and move on.<P>Whatever the reason - the reality of your situation is that you can't get water out of a stone, so to speak!!"<P>This is so true. And it could be also that he really didn't feel that way about her. Whatever it is, he isn't talking, and I have to let it go. Your words helped a great deal, and concentrating on the here and now is about the only positive step I can take. Thanks Sheba!<P>Samantha, thank you. I agree about how only God tells the truth..it sure seems like that sometimes. How did you finally believe your husband's story, when you had caught him lying? I would love to know what sort of leap of faith was involved.<P>Derby, what a great way of seeing the situation. I'm a tax lawyer actually, so it's hard to see it that way but you make a lot of sense. There is very little AGAINST H's story and most of it seems very plausible, but I did receive one piece of information that makes his whole story look like lies. I still don't know what to believe and yes, I would claw OW's eyes out if I could. You wouldn't believe the vicious lies she has told, intermixed with truth. They both have my head spinning. I will keep looking for holes in her story and ways to confirm my H's. Thanks Derby, yours was a great idea.<P>Almost Happy, I'll be mailing you today <P>Lizbeth, you said:<P>"I think what is the most scary about the not knowing is asking yourself how you can trust this person again. I'm not talking about getting the details, I'm just talking about admitting to some kind of affair."<P>That is it in a nutshell. I am afraid to buy his story, holey as it is, in case I find out some day down the road he was lying. This happened a few times already and it nearly killed me. I need to know I can trust him again, and I felt that if he admitted everything I could finally let this lie. But he won't, or it isn't true and he won't because he is telling the truth. I just don't know!!! If only I could give him some truth serum. I thought of just accepting that the worst might be true, and just forgiving him for that. But that doesn't help me if he is going to think he got away with this and continues to lie in the future. I guess I have to keep working on this, and get that forgiveness workbook TODAY. <P>Trustntruth: YES! What I need to do is concentrate on the marriage now and staying honest in the future. I will decide to forgive. You really are inspirational, you know that? <P>alleyoop, still looking for you on ICQ. I will check again now and hope we can chat soon.<P>Trying24give, we must be sisters! Vengeful and spiteful are my middle name. You have no idea what I'd like to do to OW, and only common human decency is stopping me. Vent away! I hear ya.<P>Dazed, no he's not still "friends" with her. But it's sure hard to let go of. I know exactly what you mean, your situation must be terrible to have to put up with her still being on the scene. <P>Thoughtful, you're right about maintaining honesty and staying calm when "arguing". I think I need to read the Harley books again!<P>Thank you everyone. I was a hysterical mess when I posted this, and my other post. You guys calmed me down and helped me see that there IS light at the end of the tunnel.<P>By the way, have any of you read a book by Melanie Beattie (sp?) called "The language of letting go"? I heard it was really good.<P>

Hi Cristalle,<P>You asked, "By the way, have any of you read a book by Melanie Beattie (sp?) called "The language of letting go"? I heard it was really good."<P>"The language of letting go" is snips of Beattie's books (Codependent No More and Beyond Codependence) in a monthly kind of affirmation style.<P>I have this book still in my book collection from the time when I was first finding information about addiction (for my H's problems) I found that there is a train of thought that wives, etc. of addicts are codependent. I went to a codep group for awhile and finally decided that I was not codep. I was trying to make our marriage work and trying to believe what my H said as the truth when it was truly lies. Once reality set in I was able to make sound judgments, etc.<P>I know that everyone has to go on their own journey, but I would not recommend this book to anyone who is trying to help their marriage more forward with someone who is not talking. It just made me feel inferior and bad about wanting my marriage to get better. I prefer sharing Harley's methods and information for a constructive rebuilding.<P>Probably more than you wanted to know??? And it is just my opinion. ))<P>Hugs and prayers,<BR>Thoughtful<BR>