Hello all,<P>I have been reading some of the material on infidelity on Marriage Builders. I am haviong a very hard time accepting the fact that a BS contributes or is even responsible for a WS's actions of infidelity!<P>Whatever happened to communication, trust, honor, integrity, fidelity and all those other GOOD things in a marriage and human nature in general? I think my spouse would have cheated on me even if I had been a model spouse. I think it was just in her to be allured by the greener pasture and a little difficulty, no matter when it may have come in our life, would have triggered her infidelity.<P>Any thoughts?

This is the only area that I disagree as far as MB is concerned.<P>I disagree TOTALLY.<P>We may have contributed to the decay and death of our marriages, but it was the WSs decision to have an affair.<P>I like the way Frank Pittman puts it. Something like affairs usually happen because something is wrong with the WS, not the BS.<P>My X told me that something was just "missing".<P>Whatever... Many things were missing as far as our marriage was concerned, but did I have an affair? Hell no.<P>Trying to say that the BS is responsible for the affair is like telling a mugged person that they should have done a better job of defending themselves.<P>At any rate, the WS seldom tells the BS that something is wrong until they are having the affair. At that point, there is little the BS can do since the WS wants to be with the OP. On top of that, the BS has to deal with the enormous pain of being lied to and cheated on.<P>As I did not participate in the affair, I take no responsibility for it whatsoever.<P>

As a WS, I can say absolutely not. No matter how unfulfilling or difficult the marriage, it is not the BS's fault if the WS commits adultery. That is a choice. No matter how extenuating the circumstances, it's still a choice. No BS should ever, ever feel responsible for this choice. They didn't make, after all. I accept full resonsibility for having made a very bad choice. My marriage, as it happens, was very difficult. My XH was not a good person. But, I still made that choice.<P>JAL

MB does not say that the BS contrbutes to infidelity... what it says is that the BS contributes to the breakdown of the marriage, which in turn, can lead the WS to stray. Infidelity is 100% on the shoulders of the betrayer.<P>You, as the BS, did something to contribute to the problems in the marriage - <B>NOT THE INFIDELITY</B>...<P>Remember that!! You are <B>NOT</B> responsible!!!!!!<P>

I agree!!! Read "Private Lies" by Frank Pittman. It gives a pretty realistic picture of infidelity...the whys, etc. Choosing infidelity as a "answer" to your marriage problems is all about that person who chose. It take two to make marriage problems, but how each person resolves them has everything to do with their own inner morality than it does with the other partner.<P>There is another book I'm just now reading called "Moral Earthquakes and Secret Faults" (or something like that) that talks about the secret faults we all have in our lives and how they can add up over time (if we don't deal with them, expose them, repair them) to cause a moral earthquake in our lives. And we know all too well how devastating these moral earthquakes have been to everyone around us.<P>I'm not perfect and have my own faults to deal with. But I do know that my H didn't really deal with his faults. Looking back, it's not surprising that those secret fault lines in his life lead to this end, long before I even met him.<P>Just food for thought...<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Hey, we're all human so yes we all can contribute to the decline of a marriage. But then in turn, we didn't get our needs met either. <P>I tried so hard to please my ex-husband all those years, cooking his favorite foods, letting him watch what he wanted on TV, didn't have a cat inside as he didn't like animals inside, and several other things. I was rarely complimented. He never really came and would say outright "I love you."<P>Yet, he had no problem of finding fault when he was in a bad mood. If I told him I wanted to hear sweet things from him, I would hear words "Like candy."<P>I finally gave up and created my own happiness by becoming involved in my teacher union and learning about computers. But still I would plan weekend meals around what he liked.<P>I agree with most others here. Yes, it's not our fault that they chose to betray us. The only thing which we might be blamed for is that we had desires for attention and love which were unfilled. Therefore, we had to compensate in other ways to get our needs met.<P>

Martha642,<P>But that just brings us all to square one. If your H was not giving you attention wasn't it appropriate to keep talking to him about the problem and then to have taken some action? And not try to compensate on our own w/o ample warning to the offending party?

just Tired,<P>I'm sorry to say that I sort of disagree with the responses you have gotten here. Yes, the WS is entirely responsible for making the decision to be unfaithful and give in to temptation. Yes, the WS is responsible to communicate when their needs aren't being met and when there are huge withdrawals of love. BUT. . .<P>What I think too few folks are willing to accept is that their own behavior was did contribute to the situation that lead up to their spouse looking elsewhere. Now some folks may think, "Well, if I were perfect, my spouse would have still cheated" and there are a few exceptions like that, but the majority, I think, did indeed contribute to the situation that lead to the actions of infidelity.<P>When my H and I separated, I read the book "Relationship Rescue" by Dr. Phil. This book had a unique way of helping me to focus on the things that I had done to weaken the marriage. I tended to make my H responsible for "making me happy" and I blamed him when I felt bad, but what I didn't realize was that I was responsible for me. I contributed by letting him continue on with actions and behaviors that were harmful to me and not having him suffer the "natural consequences" of his actions. I contributed by not knowing what my needs were, by not communicating them to him, and by not finding out what his needs are. I added to the demise by having an unforgiving spirit--when he was really sorry for something, I held onto it and held it over his head forever. I was judgemental and critical. But mostly, I was so concentrated on HIS shortcomings that I never looked at myself and became the woman and wife that I had the potential to become.<P>just Tired, I'm sure you can think back and think of all the things you did and ways that you behaved that were less than exemplary. That is not my point here. We all have some regrets and whatnot. No, the thing that I did not realize is that by behaving the way that I was behaving, my H was getting his needs met at work through our customers. When he went out to a customer and fixed their problems, he was admired and told how great he was (whereas, I told him all his faults). Then he would flirt with a customer or two a little, and they told him how funny he was--how smart he was--what a great businessman he was--and then eventually, how good looking he was. <P>Now, I agree--he made the conscious decision to pursue one of the flirty girls further, and he broke the trust and was unfaithful and chose to break his vows. BUT...I was there setting the stage by also not communicating, by blaming and being critical, and by not working on being a better spouse myself.<P>I know that WS's decide to cheat--at some point it is as simple and clear as, "Should I pursue this? Oh, it feels so good" and they're off. But I think it is totally unfair to place all of the responsibility on the WS's shoulders. I can't speak for everyone here, but I think it is much more healthy to look at yourself and do an honest moral inventory to see what you did that helped create this environment. Since you can not change your spouse, no matter how hard you try, I think it is more useful to use your energy to examine yourself, improve yourself, and honestly examine your own self. <P>Well, that's my $2.00 worth, because I'm worth more than two cents! <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

The Harley place no blame on the BS for the WS decision to have an affair. Thh choices made by the WS are entirely their own. The reasons why affairs happen are much more complex than simply unmet needs. If you read any posts here you will see that. Sometimes there is an underlying problem personality disorder, substance abuse, depression, MLC etc.that has nothing to do with the BS. Also many happy marriages are affected by infidelity. <P>You take responsibility for whatever part you played in not meeting needs etc. ( if any). Never take responsibility for another actions.<p>[This message has been edited by KalGrl (edited May 30, 2001).]

Hi CJ,<P>I must respectfully disagree with you. No matter how horrible the "stage was set," it is still the decision of the WS to take the step of infidelity. <P>I was in the marriage too...I now know the part I played in the problems, as well as the part he played. I too think it's healthy to take a good, hard look at the "why's" of the marriage's decline. But did I take the route of infidelity? No. Did I even consider it? No. <P>No matter what he would have done, I would not have taken that step. No, I'm not perfect...and I say that by the grace of God. But because I have built my life on moral principles that do not allow infidelity to be considered, I would not have, not did I, consider it an option. I would have left the marriage (which I don't consider an option eigher) before I would have done that. And I don't say that out of any pride or strength of my own. Like I said, I'm not perfect, but I try to make my decisions not on what I want, but on what God wants for my life.<P>My H, however, made the decision to have an affair vs getting counseling, etc. and THAT had nothing to do with me. They had to do with the moral fiber he has weaved in his life. That had to do with the things he would "allow" in his decision-making processes. That had to do with who he follows and who he thinks is the ultimate authority for his life....himself. <P>I <B>hate it</B> when people try to blame their actions on what someone else has done to them or circumstances. If we are going to talk about this, let's be very clear what the issues are.....issue number one, what went wrong in the marriage and who is to be held accountable for it....and issue number two, how did each person respond to the problems. <P>Your response to the situations you face in life is ALL YOURS, no matter who caused the situation. <P>That's my $2 worth. Not everyone will agree, but that's okay too.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited May 30, 2001).]

It has been said in many marriage counseling books that if a man fail to meet a womans emotional needs, she is likely to stray. If a man lacks physical attention he is likely to stray. So if a woman has no sexual desire,or will not try new things in bed, does that give a man a right to stray?? Well of course it would be his choice, but did the woman contribute to a broken down marriage? Satistics show woman stray for emotional and men physical. What counselors are pointing out is your responsibilty in the problem......Maybe if we hand out Questioners on all subjects before marriage do you think we could avoid any of these problems? Or is meeting each others needs and expectations something that breaks down after any length of time in a marriage? How come we can spot these problems ahead of time? Why would any of us marry someone capable of cheating????????<P>Best Regards<P>C

Is it possible that the emphasis placed upon "joint responsibility" is done in order to facilitate recovery? If the recovery involves only blaming and dunning the WS for their transgression, it's not going to be very appealing to them (even if they are the one who did it). The recovery would probably go much more smoothly and the union be strengthened if the couple takes ownership of the problem (the affair) as a joint problem to be handled together? So, if the BS admits to contributing to the atmosphere that encouraged the WS to commit adultery, then this creates joint ownership of the adultery and thus joint healing. Just an observation, maybe without merit.<P>JAL

First, we contributed to the atmosphere of human weakness that can succumb to temptation. Period.<P>That is why it is important to understand the emotional needs, and value systems from each spouse. If you don't have similar values, similar communication skills, and identified and communicated emotional needs, then you have an atmosphere that tempts the weaker spouse to seek solace in someone else's arms.<P>Its as easy as meeting a similar personality type after living with an opposite personality type.<P>However, not all situations are the same or categorically able to be labeled. There are situations where BS does not contribute at all. There are situations where they are the direct cause of it.<P>nothing is black and white, except the type here

When,<P>Really good post. I don't agree with Dr.Laura about many things, but one thing I do agree strongly with her about is her admonition to date at least three years prior to marriage. This I did not do, and, yes, I was the weaker party that strayed rather then leaving the marriage first. Looking back, I think that if we had dated for that length of time, we would never have married. This meeting of the minds regarding values, emotional needs, etc. is so very important and cannot be rushed. I only hope that I can convey this to my own children. But, when you are young and in love, sometimes no amount of cautionary advice will make a whit of difference.<P>JAL

I tend to agree with JustALurker. Maybe the concept of joint-responsibility has indeed been introduced to facilitate recovery.<P>After having read all the posts it seems to me that, yes indeed, a BS can contribute to creating an atmosphere conducive to cheating. However.....however, the choice is entirely the WS's. Creating a conducive environment is not grounds for incrimination. It sounds as ridiculous as the Italian law that says that a woman who is sexually assaulted while wearing skin tight jeans (or similar clothing) can not press charges against the offender since she created a conducive situation. Once you've broken the law you have broken the law, thats all there is to it.<P>I can easily remember the numerous times I had the opportunity to cheat. However, I was cognizant of the fallout of betrayal and I sincerely checked my intentions and corrected my behaviour. <P>Also, if God forbid I had fallen and cheated on my wife and she had found out I can honestly look back and say that I woould have taken 100% unconditional responsibility. <P>I just can not bring myself to blame anything let alone my partner for my actions. <P>As an analogy, lets say I have an argument with my wife and head of to the pub for a couple of stiff ones. I meet someone and spend the night with them. Was I drunk when I cheated, sure, do I blame my inebriation, sure, but in the end it was I who cheated. Not the perosn who bought me the drinks, not my spouse who let me go out alone, not the person whom I cheted with.<P>All in favor....

<B>So, if the BS admits to contributing to the atmosphere that encouraged the WS to commit adultery, then this creates joint ownership of the adultery and thus joint healing. Just an observation, maybe without merit.</B><P>I disagree. These are two separate, yet related issues. They are related in that they happen to the same two people and they are about events in the relationship of these two people. But that's it.<P>They are NOT cause and effect, and I for one, will not take joint ownership of the adultry! I had no part in that AT ALL. I did NOT "encourage" my H to do that...by word, thought or deed. <P>Again, may I point out that we are people with free-will and who, once we make a conscious choice (i.e. choosing adultry over counseling), we must take our own "ownership" over that choice and live with the consequences. Making your spouse take partial "ownership" of your choice and the consequences it has for the marriage, is bullsh*t.<P>I may have made a choice (even tho to me, it was unconscious at that time) to not meet my H's needs during our marriage. That DOES NOT, however, drive him automatically into the arms of another. If it was this "cause and effect" then every marriage with problems would end up the same way! They don't, so how do you explain that?<P>So are you saying that a woman who gets beat by her H is to blame? But what if she was a real b*tch and didn't meet her H's needs and irratated the crap out of him? Then she should take "ownership" for the beating....that's the only way for them to heal, right? WRONG! That guy has a BIG problem. The problem is IN HIM and when the situation between them puts stress on him, he chooses to react by beating her, not by talking, going to counseling, etc.<P>Again, I think it's vitally important to keep these issues straight....esp. it the couple is trying to reconcile or for healing to take place. <P>Sorry to get so hot, but this is just my opinion. I am not going to go thru my life blaming myself for a choice my H made. I WILL take responsibility and ownership for the things I NOW SEE that I did and didn't do to make the marriage bad. But not for his adultry. Nope. I am very clear about that issue and don't believe in accepting false guilt just to make someone else feel better about their choices and/or consequences. For real heaing to begin in anyone....together or apart...the truth must be there. Not some false truth that soothes our feelings.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

I wish I had time to post a real reply tonight...<P>Sheryl has it right as does WIFTT...<P>If we don't own some responciblity in the creating of a situation in wich a spouce <I>could</I> stray, then we are being entirely self-centered and not looking with ourselves hard enough...BS's are far from blameless...No one will convince me differently...If we are so <I>great</I> then we wouldn't even be here...<P>And don't give me the what about... crap...I know there are exceptions to this...Go read the Anne Landers or Dear Abbey thread on the GQ board...We beat this horse to death just two weeks ago...<P>Bill<P>------------------<BR><P>May the roads rise to meet you,<BR>May the winds always be at your back,<BR>May the sun shine warm upon your face,<BR>The rains fall soft upon your fields,<BR>And until we meet again,<BR>May god hold you<BR>In the hollow of his hand.

I fully agree that the WS makes a choice to stray. But, having been a BS, I know that I did things in the marriage that made my x feel unloved at times. <BR>I contributed to the atmosphere that made my X feel like he wanted another woman. BUT........<BR>He chose to stray......He did things in the marriage that caused me to be unhappy, but NEVER did I feel like I wanted anyone else. I made a CHOICE not to become involved with anyone, because I was married, for better or worse. <P>But, I did not value my marriage at times. I became a taker at times. So did he. There were times when I flet unloved and wondered if this was all I would feel. So, I went into withdrawal at times. <P>We should have communicated more. We both should have been more in tune with each others needs. But, we had kids, a business, life was moving fast, and my biggest mistake was feeling that love was unconditional, that if he loved me it would always be there. <P><P>------------------<BR>Susan

This is one of those chicken or egg thingy's. Or one of those let s/he who is without sin cast first stone. It really makes no difference who "strays" or who is "betrayed". The point is the marriage (assuming it is a monogamous paradigm) failed. The emphasis (by some) on who is at fault (usually the ws) is counter-productive, and irrelevant IMO. (But then I am a ws so my opinion is tainted). I suspect that is the basis of the Harley's position on this issue, that anyone could be a ws, so let's focus on recovery. Those Christians here know as well as I that there is no hierarchy of sin, so if they feel as a BS the moral high ground, they sin equally themselves (pride to name one). I am not unrepentant, I know I was wrong, and I am truly sorry for the pain caused my wife and have told her so..... but I am bemused at efforts directed toward assingning guilt...to what purpose? What I have focused on is what the heck happened (something I, a committed Christian, thought impossible in myself). <P>My wife (and by her admission as well) contributed significantly to an emotionally dysfunctional marriage. Does that make her responsible for my choice?....No, of course not. Am I responsible for the hurtful choices she made.... no... the point being it makes no real difference who does what, whose "hurt" was worse, whose choice was worse, just whether the parties want to repair the marriage when it becomes obvious it is seriously broken. The notion that an affair is a "special" wrong is silly. Human behaviour does not work that way, marriage, vows, fidelity et al, are social constructs, designed to facillitate social stability, so we all buy into it (through our cultural conditioning). The fact is humans choose each other all the time, and marriage is no gaurantee one spouse will not choose outside of it, it is the risk we take (among many risks) when we give over to another part of our emotional welfare. It is also a fact, that when the desire (and benefit) to choose another outside of marriage exceeds our desire to be faithful (and it's benefits) an affair will occur. That is how humans work, none of us do anything without an internal cost/benefit analysis. Those BS who say they never would choose an affair are simply saying the benefits to them of remaining faithful exceed the benefits they "percieve" in not being faithful. The moment that internal assessment changes they will wander too, unless they are not human that is. Psych 101, we all do exactly what we want to do, and we do so because of percieved benefit. Which brings us full circle, that an affair occured and that someone is hurt is not particularly important or useful (except for gaining leverage, a dubious importance), what is far more important is why, and what to do about it.

Well said Sad and Lonely!!