Ok, so here we are in Chicago. We found an old farmhouse that had been changed into an inlaw place with a separate apartment upstairs. The kids liked the house so now... my H who wants to separate and dissolve the marriage will be living above me. How the heck do you think THAT's going to go? "It's for the kids," he says.<P>Lord have mercy... well, now I need to get on with my life. What is my plan? My plan for living...? Don't I get a life too or is my life about capitulating to my H's desires of separation from me yet integration with his kids? AND, is it for my kids? I'm still battling the TAKER inside of me, I guess.<P>I'm almost afraid of your thoughts... I know, I have an opportunity to demonstrate changed behavior but at this point, I just want to be ME! And now I'm starting all over again for the 3rd time - first E. Europe, then the abrupt return home to the US and now to Chicago... a new city.<P>God help us all!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

So no one has any thoughts on creating your own plan if you were in this situation? I would welcome anything...?!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

I'm sorry Oc'S I wouldn't have done it. <P>I do admire you stick to it'veness but daggone. Do you see a future with your husband other than for your childern? It would seem to me that you both have some changing to do for this to work out. Or it may be worse on the kids in the long run. <P>Here again, I apologize but I could never do what you are doing. You are a very strong person.. <P>I wish you luck.<P>Tex.

AGMIT, thanks for your feedback. Yeah, some of my friends/family think this is a little crazy. But, ya know, I still have hope for our relationship. I am changing and growing each day. I don't know what future I have other than ensuring the best for my kids. I've always needed a little dose of humilty in my life so this last 8 months has really stuck it to me. Now, to have to live in the face of the one who rejects me, that will build character in me... or am I just a masochist? I don't know.<P>We're able to move ahead in peace... I just hope that things don't become too strained. We have to truly EMPTY ourselves for the sake of the kids. If my H isn't willing to do this at this time then I'll change the dance and try it myself. I'm not feeling sorry for myself just standing in my pain and truly finding some good things that have come out of this.<P>The benefit for me is that I don't think there is an OP in his life - at least he says no. Given some of your guy's situation, I could NEVER have tolerated that. It seems what my H needs is some independence and freedom... to search for this illusive happiness. He can't find it with me - only with his kids. The unfortunate part for him is that his kids love and need their mother. So, c'est la vie.<P>I may regret this but hey, I'm resilient... I'll have to think through some ground rules and not just take it all like a door mat, ya know? What are some concerns that you (all) see that I should think through and prepare for?<P>Thanks again for your thoughts...<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

OvrCs,<P>What happens when he starts dating...<BR>...or you start dating?...<P>What if you wanted a Plan B?...<P>This makes it difficult for you...<BR>...there is no doubt about it!<P>But... what's done is done...<P>I hope all works out.<P>You have my prayers.<P> <P>Jim

OvrCs,<P>I see this as an opportunity for God to heal the rift between you two. I know this will sound ludicrous but it is an opportunity for you to reconcile with him if it is God's will. The plan is to be good friends and prepare for when he starts dating. It will not be easy because the probability is high that there are still feelings for him though they may be small in relation to the other feelings you currently have for him.<P>Be thankful he wants to be close for the children. I see him being somewhat responsible from that standpoint though the more responsible standpoint would have been to never have created this mess in the first place.<P>Let God guide your steps to what He (God) wants to occur in your life. Just as Jesus endured our pain so that we could have eternal life, we too must endure some pain for those we love as well. Jesus was and is our example to follow.<P>------------------<BR><B><I>God Bless,<BR>Rob</I></B><BR> regilmor@swbell.net

Well, the probability of him wanting to date before I do is remote. He is hurt from our relationship and really doesn't want to entertain another one. I was the first woman he'd seriously considered marrying. He didn't really date much before me. <P>He has been very responsible with the kids this whole time... I told him that our marriage is like a ship that has gone astray because the first mate (me) has tried mutiny... trying to take over. He has successfully muted the first mate and gotten the vessel safely to shore without a crash. I failed in my job in that I didn't recognize my place nor did I respect him for who he is... I expected perfection and the image of who I thought MY husband should be. It was nine long years of that...<P>He says, he is simply living out the consequences of my LBing behavior all those years. Well, to some extent I believe that. The other side is not actively doing anything to try and make a difference - well, he claims he tried everything he knew how to do to communicate this to me. So, I've been severely taught a lesson in relating to other people - especially those closest to me.<P>I kind of look at this arrangement as a way of healing also... I've made significant changes but it will take a long time to demonstrate the sustainability of those changes. Right now, he's like a wounded pup in the corner not willing to trust the evil master who just kicks him around. Gosh, am I really talking about myself like this? Well, true or not, this is his perception of how our lives have been.<P>The other analogy that came to me last night was that my H is a bit like Jesus when he came into the temple and turned the tables in anger because that is NOT what the Temple of God was meant for. My H had the courage like that to get angry and take a stand that our marriage was NOT the way God intended it to be and really turned the tables out and was ready to kick the money changer out who was out to do business for herself. So, it's a bitter pill to swallow but by God's Grace and hopefully some forgiveness, we'll be able to get on with our life.<P>It will be hard to see him with someone else, but I'm committed to trying to be the best person I can be in relating to him for not only our peace of mind but for the children's... they need both their Mom and Dad. Sowing and reaping... maybe I won't have a marriage to him - doesn't look like it. But I can be a grown up towards him and love him for who he is... and not who I expect him to be.<P>I'm just not sure of the practicality of the arrangement really, like where will the kids sleep? Will they play us off of each other? "Dad said I could... I'm going to go to Dad's place, etc." These are the kinds of things I'm concerned about that could cause problems... also visitors... where will they go? I've come to realize that no separation/divorce goes "by any book" and that we're plowing new ground as we go... I just hope that we can stop hurting each other on the way.<P>Thanks again for your thoughts...<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

I have a friend and he lives two blocks from his ex. She had an affair and married the OP. He said at first, he cried every day. And then it got so he would cry less and less. He did it for the girls. He loves them dearly and would give his eyeteeth for them at any time. Yet they are not spoiled or bratty. They are sweet and caring and loving to both of their parents. He never says an unkind word about his ex, yet he does not defend her when she is wrong. He lets it lie. It can work for the kids if you both want it -- he and ex still talk about the kids but no personal stuff. He just keeps it that way. It is amazing and even a little bizarre.... we all ask him why they aren't still married if they get along so well. But he won't say -- he just says he was unhappy, without blaming her and leaves it at that. We all know there is more, but he is unwilling to say anything bad about his ex that might leak back to the girls. He is a very honorable man.<P>All that to say, that you can do it if you are willing to go through that -pain for the girls --- it will subside.

Well, OvrCs, I don't think I would ever recommend doing what you did.<P>But...<P>I probably would have done the same thing. <BR>

Yeah... sometimes I have my doubts. Well, stay tuned, I'm sure I'll post how this saga is playing out over the next few months...<P>Man, life can really suck sometimes! Well, the trick is to find contentment in the middle of the muck...<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Just try to get the bottom up to the middle.<P>You know that I agree with professorg...well stated, Rob. Agape love is the only kind no one can refuse.<P>The perception your Husband has mirrors my experience, except that my ex-wife finally 'realized' that she 'probably never loved' me in the first place.<P>Plan B? Plan B? I think you move too fast.<P>"Stand in [my] pain"...yes, I know. Go to <A HREF="http://www.restorem.org" TARGET=_blank>http://www.restorem.org</A> and see whatthey have to offer you. If you want your marriage restored, and realize that, being God's institution, you need his help to do it, that place can guide your efforts.<P>My ex-wife lives ONE block away. She hasn't even gutted the house yet. It is a test, to be sure, but I think that ultimately, it works to my favor. There really isn't any other way to view it, do you realize that?<P>If you are anything at all like me, you could not be less interested in dating, and the fact that my ex-wife almost assuredly already is does not change that one bit.<P>If you see any future at all with him, then you need to decide what the nature of that future is, and start putting in place that which will provide for it, and putting aside that which will not.<P>I do not allow my ex-wife to don the LB behavior we were talking about before. (You know, her version of my earlier LB behavior.) I let her do it until she filed the divorce with the fabricated information, but not at all after that. Doormat is a very easy word, but it depends on what you are after in the end. In any case, it is always better to "be angry; do not sin.", wouldn't you say? What more could my ex-wife do to me? SHE DIVORCED ME. There really isn't any more 'doormat-like' thing that could happen, is there? Yes, I could read things into every interaction (and I do, believe me), but I don't have to let it get to me anymore. Her point is abundantly clear, I just steer clear when she tries to reiterate it too much.

OvrCs,<P>Now that you have made your choice, one can only wish you the best. It just strikes me that as long as you two are still in each other's company, and still working together for the kids, there must still be something there. There is always a chance that something will rekindle the old flame.<P>Couple things really jump out at the reader of your posts.<P>Yes, you are ploughing new fields. Whatever happens, it isn't going to be boring, so, please keep us updated.<P>You sure seem to be awfully hard on yourself. Experience teaches us that when a relationship falls apart, it is never, ever all one person's fault. So, while you are mulling all this over, how about taking a good hard look about the other side of the ledger, like the good things you do, and the things he liked about you. Maybe start trying to capitalize on the good points as you try to improve the others.<P>Your marriage didn't get to this point overnight. You have already figured out that it isn't going to get fixed overnight.<P>Never, ever understimate the power of small kindnesses over time. The effects of doing those little things, one day at at time, really add up over time.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Bumperii (edited June 04, 2001).]

OvrCs<P>you are in a great position to perform a lab experiment, long term. the lab experiment is to completely eliminate your LB'ing behavior and attitudes, to show your H what a great W you have been transformed into.<P>Now, if you can do that without threats of divorce, and by inviting him to a family dinner during your time with the kids, etc, special times, random times are even better, and show him the new Nicole, then you are going to have the best shot at reconciliation.<P>You make a great decision to stay with him <B> IF </B> you decide to get a solid offensive plan for project RECONCILIATION. the reconciliation is all in your hands, believe me, and you have a great opportunity, granted it will be limited in time, but start now, and don't look back for regrets!<P>good luck! now get going!<BR>

Hello...<P>Bumperii you say, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>So, while you are mulling all this over, how about taking a good hard look about the other side of the ledger, like the good things you do, and the things he liked about you. Maybe start trying to capitalize on the good points as you try to improve the others.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When I first read it, I thought you were going to ask me to look at HIS negative ledger... and compare my negs with his negs. Hadn't really THOUGHT at all about looking at the good things I do an trying to capitalize on that! It's an appreciative inquiry... what were/are the things I do/have done that have brought LIFE to this relationship!<P><BR>WAITING, you say <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If you see any future at all with him, then you need to decide what the nature of that future is, and start putting in place that which will provide for it, and putting aside that which will not.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This too I like. I need to evaluate everything on that which will add value to my long-term goal of our future together and cast off things that don't. No, I'm not a lot like you in that sometimes I fantasize about dating again... being held by someone who accepts me for me. But, given this framework you've suggested, I'd better cast that thought off right quick!<P>And WIFTT, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>you are in a great position to perform a lab experiment... Now, if you can do that by inviting him to a family dinner during your time with the kids, etc, special times, random times are even better, and show him the new Nicole, then you are going to have the best shot at reconciliation.You make a great decision to stay with him IF you decide to get a solid offensive plan for project RECONCILIATION. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I feel like my PLAN, that you spoke of earlier, is starting to emerge... at least the framework. I'm taking a positive approach, trying to bring the energy-giving and not life-draining attributes of me to a healthy balance and well, I'll move forward as this lab-rat and see what turns out!<P>I wonder what I could use as a control group... this could really become a scientific experiment! <P>Anyway, got to go... the kids are getting restless. I wasn't looking for permission but honest opinions of what I might be facing... so if there are still concerns out there, please voice them so that I can mentally prepare. I can keep my LB behavior in better check if I think through things rather than get things sprung on me!<P>Cheers folks!<BR>Nicole<BR><P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

Yes, it sounds as if we all see things as they are here. I DO fantasize about dating, but I am boring in that I've always fantasized mostly about my ex-wife. The thought of other women intrigues, and frightens me, just like always; the only difference now is that I have no one to take for granted anymore. That is sobering, to say the least. The difficult thing, as you mentioned above, is having to be a spectator to the spouses' activities, not just in the relationship department. At first, my ex-wife was working out, but her drinking made her gain more weight. She seems to be letting everything go these days, but that's just my perception, I guess.<BR>One thing I can tell you is that I tried countless times to sit and formulate a plan, you had chastised me before with respect to that, but all I get from that exercise is a 'way to be', nothing real specific. I make sure that I give Teri something she needs every time she comes here. The trouble is, she makes it a point to take something she doesn't, as well. Great.

WAITING... sounds like her 'taker' is in HIGH gear... even though your 'giver' is so offering. I hope it's just for a time... maybe she's just trying to push your buttons.<P>So, I've been thinking about what Bumperii said... about thinking about the positive side or life-giving things about me that gave energy into the relationship. How about you? Can you think of some? I wonder where to start... Any ideas...? I just can't think right now considering all the damage I feel I've done. Yeah, I can get things done and do all the little detail things... but what about the big things, maybe THAT is the problem I was doing all the periphery things that I neglected investing in the things that really count... like in the emotional needs area!<P><p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited June 04, 2001).]

Yeah...the taker. Her OM's truck has been at her apartment for three, or four days, too. Apparently, he hasn't...at least when the kids were there. I still don't know for certain the status of that little situation, and that is probably best.<BR>Yes, I think she is stomping with intent here. Why is that? I have three theories:<BR> 1. To push me far enough away that I stay away.<BR> 2. To test whether I'd go away forever, or if she could make me justify her actions.<BR> 3. To make her feel better about it all.<P>I'm not sure what it means. What do I do? What do you do? I don't know...as you can see, I try to keep my giver up front, but I also need the respect thing, too. It is delicate, to say the least. I do have a hard, and fast rule:<BR> I NEVER do the first thing that occurs to me, even if it is nice. It keeps her VERY off balance. If there is one thing I've done well, its that. Not in a good way always, but still...she has no clue as to what I'm going to do. She is, unfortunately, all too predictable.<BR>Most of what she fell in love with then, she has turned black. I am spontaneous (irresponsible), I have well thought out opinions (I'm pigheaded), I try to teach children (I play too much), I read a lot (whatever, she's a librarian...probably good to go here.), I'm open-minded (I don't discipline.), I'm non-conformist (I'm self centered, and have no spirituality).<BR>P.S. OM lives at home with his mother, two daughters, and son from his first marriage, and makes NOTHING to speak of. Actually, he's a lot like me...unfortunately.<BR>No, the little things are the secret...actions speak louder than words...this is VERY TRUE.

So... the saga continues...<P>In trying to make the best of a horrible situation, we move ahead on closing. We're stuck in negotiations about getting the radon levels down and a permanent solution to our various issues on the house... but we're talking about $500 to $1000 more than what the sellers want to pay.<P>The deal is my stbx-H is saying that if they don't agree to fix it completely then we walk. <P>I'm trying to discern if he's actually getting cold feet on this whole deal or what is going on? How can we decide to give up everything we've been negotiating on this house for that small amount?<P>Do you think he's backing out? I know his siblings think he's crazy that he won't feel "divorced" enough from me - and they have a strong voice in his decision-tree. He actually even IM'd with a friend of mine saying now that we've bought the house the kids are "safe." My friend was puzzled by this choice of word. I hate to wonder and play on his every word or action as I don't think he's manipulating... but given these circumstances are NOT in my "dreams" for my life... what do you think I should be doing? Just wait it out? Yeah, he's making a HUGE commitment because he's the one with the job with me only supplementing... once we're in the house, he expects me to cover 1/2 of everything (with a small child-support help from him).<P>I don't know... any thoughts on this?<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17<p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited July 02, 2001).]