I am at a point I cannot seem to get past.<P>Through enormous stress and some less than thoughtful actions on my part, my wife announced to me close to a year ago, that she no longer loved me. We have been together for 15 years and married for 6. I was very happy and have always only wanted to make her happy. I was shocked to say the least. We almost never argued and I couldnt understand. She had just given birth to our new son and I thought I was living a dream, and I guess I was.<P>For the next seven months we fought and argued over what happened and what we were to do. We have two children 7 year old and now our baby now 1. Both of us could not face the possibility of the kids growing up without both of us in the same house. She wanted for us to live together, but only for the kids. No feelings for each other. I told her I couldnt do that, I love her too much to turn off how I feel. I started speaking with a counsellor and finally Steve who firmly believed in what I did, saving the marriage and not walking away. I spoke with him for months but she refused to speak with anyone. We continued to argue, but as I went through more and more counselling, I learned better how not to respond to her comments which usually started arguments. Maybe I just started caring less and less, but I dont think so. I hoped that if I could stop responding, and stop arguments from happening, maybe I could stop the downward spiral we were in. About two months ago, she finally agreed to speak with Steve and had two meetings individually with him. Although he never told me the details, I think she may have gave him a really hard time. After the second meeting, he advised me to start thinking about and looking into initiating a legal seperation. He felt she could not protect me from myself. Through all of this I have been loving towards her and treated her as my wife. She is cold and standoffish, except when putting on an act for the kids. After Steve told me that, I was shocked. That was something I had been fighting for close to a year, and putting up with considerable mental punishment from my wife to avoid.<P>So now I try to decide what to do. Knowing my wife, she is very stubborn and independant. Even before all of this, she would tell me that she didnt need me, and would get along fine without me. This was unnerving at the time but I thought our love would go on forever. Stupid I know. Now I am torn. I take almost daily remarks that tear my heart apart. It is better since I now just ignore them and dont respond, which will only escalate and hurt me more and her as well. I can see happening what Steve warned me about. My feelings for her are changing as she continues to treat me this way. I still love her, but know if this goes on I am afraid I will end up hating her.<P>As all this is happening, I can only think of our sons, who would be devastated by a divorce or seperation. We have tried short term seperations, that can be explained away to the kids as a business trip, but it has had no affect on my relationship with my wife. I come back to face the same abuse. She says she is trying to control what she says, and that she wants in her mind to say 100 things for every one that she does.<P>Here is my dilemma. If I stay, I have to put up with her actions and lack of feelings which puts me to tears practically every day. My feelings will gradually change, and I will end up hating her for how I am treated and resent the fact that she never gave our marriage a chance. The other option is that I leave. Maybe I can get myself to a happier place where I dont have to put up with that abuse, but what of the kids. If I leave, we will have to give up the house they live in, and they will have to move to much less expensive accomodations. She will probably be forced to move from our town, as there is nothing else we could afford there, meaning my son changing schools again for the second time in two years. We cannot continue to support the standard of living our kids enjoy with us living apart, so again they suffer. They will both suffer tremendously from not being in daily contact with me, as I have always been there and been at least a 50% responsibility parent. This is just the beginning as I think she will use them against me to continue the punishment. I can see law suits and custody hearings. Its scary.<P>My wife is aware of all this as well and wants it not to happen, but will be all to eager to place the blame on me for being too weak to stay. I am not a weak person and have stayed longer and put up with more than I would have ever thought possible.<P>I only stay now and put with what I do for the kids. I want to hold this marriage together show our kids what can be achieved with a marriage if you stick with it. She does not believe she can ever love me again and has said that she will never let herself love me again.<P>I know that if there were not kids involved that at this point I could go and say to myself that I did what I could and cannot force her to love me, but what about the kids. Do I go and be the bad guy for leaving and try to get over the guilt of not being able to save my family, or do I stay and put up with nothing short of mental and emotional abuse, until I am pushed over the edge.

matt- i am in asituation too , not as much like yours. Somwone gave me some advice, and I can give it to you. If you can read the book divorcebusting it does give a different view to someone that wants to keep their marriage alive. There is even a web site www.divorcebusting.com. My wife recently told me the same thing. I was never much on books or advice from other people but tis is something I will try. i`m at the end of my rope. Best of luck to you. Let me know how things turn out

Thanks for the reply., I have been to the divorcebusting site, but haven't yet bought the book. I will do so. Thanks again and best wishes on your situation.<P>Matt

Matt,<P>It's interesting how she has painted you into a corner. No doubt if you do divorce, your kids will think it was your fault. Life just isn't fair.<P>But I say get away from her. At least a separation. Make it very real for her. All of her negitivity will run you down otherwise. Your life should at least have value to you, even if it doesn't to her.

Matt: About 95% of what you wrote can be applied to me. My wife also told me about 6 weeks ago that she no longer had feelings for me. We had a great marriage, never fought, always gave each other space. Then she had two people that were very close to her pass away. She completely changed. We also have two kids, and I refuse to leave because of them. We are like friends around the house except she shows no affection for me at all. Like you I still love my wife but I feel that I might begin to hate her if she keeps my away. I too wonder just how long I can live this type of life. I wish I had some answers for you, but, like you I keeping coming to this forum looking for something. I'm noy a bible thumper, but, I keep praying we can work this out. Take care.

Thanks for the replies.<P>Kevin, your situation does sound very similar. Both her and I were under tremendous pressure and stress prior to this happening. She never said a word about how her feelings were changing until she said it was too late. We too act like friends areound the house. I'm sure that the kids don't notice anything, she puts on a real good act. But once thee kids are in bed, I might as well live alone for all the interaction I get. Usually all she has to say is to complain about how lousy her life is and how my thoughtlessness has destroyed her life. I think she has been suffering from clinical depression for a couple of years now, but she doesnt think so. Any discussion of any seriousness inevitably ends up with her attacking me verbally. So we just dont talk. Then she complains that all we have to talk about is work - because we work together. I would love to talk to her about something else, but it always ends up with her making angry remarks and me shutting down.<P>I dont know what to do anymore. I can keep trying - or I can give up. She is completely unwilling to try anything or even consider us working things out. I feel like I am holding on with my fingernails - mostly for the kids. Im the kind of personality that never gives up and always takes responsibility for whatever goes wrong and then sets out to fix it. I dont take failure in any part of my life very lightly. I cant imagine going on feeling like I have failed my kids - or them feeling that.<P>I keep praying for a miracle. I think it will take one.<P>Matt

Matt:<P>I feel your pain. In my situation my wife talks to me, no fighting. She too acts loving around the kids, but, when they go to bed I feel the vibes change. You must be strong to have put up with the abuse for a year. It's been 6 weeks for me and I'm about to go loose it. I read Divorcebusting and it seemed to put me in a better frame of mind. Remember, it's about self-preservation and self-respect. You deserve to be happy. My situation has not escalated to your level yet, and when it does I don't know what to do. The part that confuses me is that when I ask my wife if I did something wrong in our marriage she says no, that I am/was a good husband. She keeps saying "I don't know what happened" A friend told me that seperation is the first step of a divorce, that really scared me because my wife's counselor suggested we seperate. I am determined not to leave. The devil is telling me to throw her out for what she has done to me and the kids, make her pay for it, but, the angel is telling me to work it out. I guess it sounds like I'm rambling, but, I really have no one to talk to. So, this really helps. I wish you well.

Matt,<BR>I am very sorry for the pain in the situation you are going through. it sounds very difficult and my heart goes out to you.<P>The only thing that came to my mind that I wanted to share with you was, if your kids are the only reason to stay together it is not a good enough reason. TOo many people seem to subscribe to the theory that it is better to stay together for the kids's sake. this is just not true. What kids deserve is two loving, happy parents who love each other and work on a relationship. If you "survive" in this marriage...especially if you end up hating her (which I agree is a very real possibility), it will be no better for your kids than if you divorce. In fact, it will be worse, because this is the type of relationship that the kids will learn from you two. They will learn about hateful, unhappy relationships, and I'll bet that is the kind of relationship they will end up in. Your kids deserve more. They are not stupid...they will know what is going on, they will pick up on much more than you think. So please, do not stay in a loveless hateful relationship "for the kids." They deserve far better than that. They deserve parents who are happy, even if that means without each other - so they can teach their kids how to be happy and, who knows, maybe even find a true love down the road.<P>God bless you.

Thanks Carol and Shelley,<P>I agree with you SHelley that things cannot go on with us staying together for the kids if things keep going downhill between us. It seems as if in the last few weeks things have stabilized somewhat. Her outbursts have almost ceased. I still know how she feels, or should I say how she doesnt feel. Things are tense when we are alone, but the lack of daily outbursts has allowed me some emotional reprieve. I have found that with some newfound knowledge, stability, and less pressure, I am more able to handle the bumps that do come along. FOr the last few months I have refused to respond to any comments which relate to the state of our relationship or the things I have done to contirbute to that state. I even joke sometimes about them and we can sometimes both get a laugh. The other day our baby was feeling under the weather and I was trying to distract him while my wife gave him his medicine. I was dancing around and making funny faces and genreally playing the fool. The baby was laughing at me and as I danced around I made the comment the "With me jumping around and looking like an idiot I can see why you dont love me anymore." and we both had a really good laugh. I think it escalated because I contributed ad I let it escalate. Since I made a big deal about it, she made a big deal about it. Now I stay upbeat and positive, even if she isnt. I dont blame myself or get down for her low moods. I just go on my merry way. I still love her dearly and it is hard sometimes to ot pur out my guts on the table, but I hold back. Maybe over time we can find a place where we can both be happy together.<P>Carol, I do believe that my wife has been suffering from depression, both prior to and during her pregnancy. I thought that before all this happened and spoke with her about it. She doesnt think she is, but she exhibits all the signs. It isnt surprising considering all the stress we have been under in the last couple of years, from every different direction. She thinks that I am crazy just to suggest it, and doesnt take kindly to others advice in general, so she doesnt listen. She puts on a happy face for everyone else, so I dont think anyone else would suspect she could be suffering from depression, but she definately is. She has family history of this kind of thing, and knowing what I know now, I think she has been suffering from it for years. She had a horrendous childhood - abuse, etc. She told me that she could never picture herself as an adult because she didnt think she would live that long. But I cannot force her to do anything about it and just to suggest it is a disrespectful judgement.<P>Kevin, I hope you read this and see the hope in this message. Sometimes I feel like I am at the end of my rope and I have surprised myself time and time again that the rop[e is much longer than I think. Concentrate on changing you. When I started this whole process the concept of accepting that I could only change myself and I needed to see how those changes may affect the others in my life seemed ridiculous. I still want to control everything now, and I am sure I will never accept my limitations, but I can see now how changing myself is changing how she treats me. I still tell her I love her and I still treat her like my wife. I cant at this point "Do a 180" and treat her like I dont care. Its not in me. It is hard when she pushes me away when I want to be close, but I accept it and dont let it get me down - most times. Stick with it bud and stay close to the board here for encouragement. I know it has helped me tremendously.<P>Matt

Matt:<P>Is was nice of you to think of me during your last post. Thanks. It sounds as if things are a little better with you. That's good news. I guess we have to take little steps.<BR>Not much new with me other than the fact that I can feel myself changing towards my wife. I am beginning to hate her for what she is doing to me and the kids. But, at the same time I feel sorry for her. She still shows absolutely no affection for me at all. It' as if we're roommates. It still amazes me that you have hung in there for over a year. I hope I can, I just don't know. I guess I don't have to tell you how difficult it is. Well, thanks again for the kind words and I'll keep a look out for your posts. See ya.<P>Kevin

Kevin,<P>I dont remember whether I posted this on this thread or not, but remember love is not just a feeling, but a choice. You choose to love her despite the other feelings not being as strong. Try to stick by that choice. I know how hard it can be at times. If you treat her like your feelings have changed, that is how she will treat you. Save yourself by saving yur feelings for her. It wont be the same feelings you had before, but keep them positive.<P>Matt

Matt:<P>I went and saw a counselor yesterday. Unfortunately he didn't hand me a magic pill that would fix all of my problems. I guess it helped a little bit to talk to someone. Matt, just how long are you going to hang in there. Do you think that your wife will ever love you again after all this time. I'm not trying to be negative, just realistic. I want to hang in there too, but, deep inside me I know that a choice will have to be made. Being unhappy all of the time is not healthy. I was a happy person all the time. So, this is a real change for me. I know the rope is long, but, is does have an end. I apoligize if I sound negative, I'm just trying to face reality. Talk to you soon.<P>Kevin

Kevin,<P>Sorry for being so long in the reply, I havent been on here in a while. How long to wait, that is a hard one to answer. I guess it is different for everyone. I have to say that in my case things have gotten better, although she has still not said that she loves me. The hostility, at least on the surface, between us is pretty much gone. She doesnt make hurtful remarks and I dont overreact to things she says or does. I think we both know that there is still that wall between us, but at least it isnt in plain view all day. It isnt the saem as it used to be, but at least I think we are protecting each other. I guess that is a start. I have not heard an "I love you" in almost a year. The anniversary of the "blowup" is only two weeks away. I guess I havent heard her say it and mean it in longer than that. Everyone is different. I guess this is what they call the end of the "honeymoon", when you see your partner as they really are, warts and all, instead of seeing the image that you had in your head from the initial romance period. It happens to most of us and it is different for me than for her because I came to that realization a couple of years ago and decided that I loved her despite the fact that she had faults I hadnt seen. She sees what she is doing now as "settling for less than she thought she would have" for the sake of the kids. That is the negative take on it. In the positive, I look at it as truly loving someone for who they are, not who you want them to be. That is ultimately the decision, will you love her and she you, for who you are? It may take a lot of time. I know it took me a long time after I was shocked with her faults. I stuck with it and DECIDED to love her. True love is a choice and a feeling. As I said before, it is the CHOICE that keeps you there when the feeling isnt as strong. Lovign someone just for the romantic feeling isnt true love. I hope for your family that you can stick to the choice, even if it takes her a while to come to that realization.<P>Matt

I just noticed that it is two months since I started this topic. I hope that anyone who had the diligence to read all of these posts notices how my situation has changed for the better in those two months. It isnt perfect, but it is improving with each week, I think. From despair to real hope of possible love renewed in just two months. Stick with it all of you and do what's right for you and your spouse. Make the choice to love and stay together - work on your relationship, even if your spouse is not as committed as you. Any endurance limit you have is in your head. Keep with it.<P>Matt<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Matt (edited May 26, 1999).]

Matt, I have read this whole thread...I want to ask you if you can expand on how things have gone since you first posted.<P>I just came upon this forum today. My wife and I have been separated for a year and she says she wants a divorce, I do not. We have no kids although I would love to have them with her someday. I love her terribly and always have, but with other after work activities I have been involved in, I did not give her the time she needed and always thought everything was okay. When I realized how it had gotten, it seems to have been too late in that she decided to move out and started the emotional process of moving on, because she felt I would never come around. This and other things in my life have really changed my outlook and I have tried to put her first for a little while but still she seems so far away. She says her feelings changed and she does not feel the same way, that maybe there is a chance things could work again but it is a small one.<P>I have tried, so hard, to keep my head up and hang in there. But it is hard when we get together because we have this issue that we both know has to be dealt with, we both said recently that if only we did not have this we would have such a good time doing things together. I think she feels the divorce is needed so she can try to make a clean new start from the time I neglected her and did not put her first in my life. I do not know whether to accept the divorce and hope we can work it out later or if I should keep trying to avoid the divorce. She has not filed yet but first mentioned it a few months ago. Since then I have been desperately hanging in there and getting emotional about it and I suspect it is not helping, but I cannot help the way I feel.<P>I have read the section here on why women leave men and emotional needs and I see much of that in our situation. I want so badly to put into action the things I have learned here and other places and just want the chance. But she seems to have emotionally moved on and says she does not love me in the same way anymore. Can it ever be changed...how do you do it. I have hoped if I kept telling her how I felt and tried to do special things for her, it would matter. It seems to but not enough. And I feel being apart as we have been, how could she really see the changes, how could she want to come back when she only remembers the time I did not put her first.<P>I guess I will stop here for now...I wish you all the best and hope somehow we can all be happy.<BR>

Well, to answer your first question on how things have changed. Things for us have primarily changed from an all-out war, verbally, and otherwise, to some level of peace. This change was really brought about by two things, I think. One, I decided to change. I had to hold my tounge, even when she was being abusive and I wanted to lash back. THAT WAS HARD! I just got to the point where I ignored those kind of comments. I realized that arguing with her was not going to convince her to feel the way I wanted her to feel. If I was to "win" in the way I wanted, I had to "lose" first. I just toild her that I didnt want to argue about this ad that was all we could seem to do, so I was staying quiet. It took me many sessions with Steve Harley to get to the point that I was able to do that and get that perspective on things. I think the other thing that happened was that when she saw that I was not going to let things escalate anymore, the "fun" was gone from poking at me all the time. After a few weeks, she just stopped. She says the occasional thing now and then, but I just joke it off now. The renewed sense of confidence that our relationship wasnt on a one way trip to the toilet I think changed me demeanor and is making me into the confident, "together" person that she remembers. Although she still does nt love me, my perspective on love as a whole is different, and that lets me deal with things. My perspective now is that the word "love" means different things to different people. I term love as being far beyond just that romantic feeling. Others, including my wife, feel that if the romantic feeling is gone, than the "love" is gone. I would never tell her that she doesnt know what love is, that would be a disrespectful judgement, but I think she loves me the way I love her. I just also love her the romantic way too. The important love is there, and it sounds like that may be a similar case with your wife. The fact she hasnt filed for divorce may mean that although she wont admit it, she is giving you a chance. Dont blow it. Get counselling immediately, just yourself at first. A counsellor is like a coach, they can tell you strategies and assess your strengths and weaknesses better than you can yourself. Read all Harley's books and use the suggestions. Dont push her or the issue. Let a sleeping dog lie for a while and enjoy your time together. Tell her that you love her and you respect her feelings, but you dont want to give up, whatever that means. And keep us posted.<P>Matt

Matt:<P>It's nice to see you back and that things seem a little better with you and your wife.<BR>I'm trying to understand your take on the various meanings of love. All I know is that I still have love for my wife and she doesn't have it for me. The hard part for me to understand is that nothing seemed to have happened between us. We had a great marriage then bam, she drops the bomb. <P>Looking back over your posts I see that you think your wife suffers from depression. I'm beginning to wonder if that is part of my wife's problem. Her mother died about two years ago followed by two close uncles. All during this time she gave birth to our second child. I can see that she is not a happy person. Most times her face is expressionless. Do you think I should ask her about depression? Of course I don't want to to anger her.<P>With all due respect Matt you never answered my question as to how long you can live under the current circumstances. I mean just how long can you live an unhappy life. It's just not healthy. It's been four months for me and I know I will come to a point that a decision will have to be made if nothing improves. As of right now, four months later absolutely nothing has changed. <P>Well, I'll talk to you later.<P>Kevin<BR>

Kevin......<P> I just read your last post. Well I have been living with my spouse for 2 years with no love feelings for him anymore. I have tryed but nothing has come back for me. I read that there are different kinds of love. Well I do love him as a person and father but not as a spouse should love the other. Yes he does know that too. That I am not in love with him anymore. We too live sepeartly alot although we don't fight like we use to. That has gotten better. But I don't like living like roomates. I too have stayed in there because of my kids. I had gone into a deep depression about a year and half ago. I did see a thereapist for a year and it did help. We tryed seeing her together . We went 3 times but nothing changed we just dug for deep feelings and more hurt came from it. There is alot from my story that changed my feelings that go way back. But was not until 2 years ago I saw the real picture on my life. People say well I stay I took those vows. Well to me God does not want us unhappy either. I in time know what I want to do. I to am scared. I don't want to leave this earth unhappy if I should go tommorrow I would have went unhappy and I don't want that. I go one day at a time thats all I can do for now. Yes it stinks I know. He says he loves me but I know its not in love feelings too. Cause one night I told him I forgot what in love feels like he said so did I. I have even told him I think he needs to find someone else to make him happy for the person he is now. Not who he was. I don't know it this helps you at all but thought would respond. There are so many couples out there that are not happy and its sad. Life is just to short. To me grass can be greener for some people although alot of people disagree with that. He has threatened to leave about 4 times but never does. All he wants to see is my reaction from it. He does counterdict himself alot and thats also wrong. Well chin up I suretry and yes its very very hard. I am trying to find me again right now digging deep inside. Not there yet but someday i hope my prayers are answered.

I have just finished reading all the post here and cant help but feel for you guys. I too chose to stay but she left and took the children with her, 20 months ago. It brings back the feelings of how uncomfortable it was to be there. For 20 months I have given all I have but she's not intrested. I have now resided to plan B, which is no bargan. I had it explained to me in such a way that its her choice for me not to love her not mine. That removes a lot of guilt and I dont feel responsible for her decisions. I feel so bad that she thinks she's moving ahead because she's having fun. For her fun is acting young, hanging with young people, clubbing, drinking and dating her 26 Y/O boyfriend for the last 15 months (she's 40). It hurts and puzzles me to know that a young guy like that can give her anything that I cant. If I had it to do again I would have gone to Plan B a long time ago, but it hurt too much. Also every time i saw or spent time with her it was like pouring salt on old wounds and I went back 2 steps. I'm hoping that not seeing or talking to her will finally gine me some relief to the torment I'v felt over the last 2 years.<BR>Matt<BR>Its great to see things going well and I hope for you that you be patient with her. Good luck to you.<BR>Kevin<BR> I hope you can learn something from matt, as far as not pushing. If it dont work I guess we'll be talking about plan B. I wish you the best.

Kevin and Matt, I read your stories and couldn't help but to write to you. I agree with Carol and the post partum/clinical depression.<P>Post partum depression can last up to 2-3 years if left untreated. Severe mood swings and lack of feelings and sexual desire are extremely common. It doesn't always hit a woman right away. I know, my baby was 5 months old when I realized there was a problem. I was diagnosed when he was 6 months old and have been on medication for almost two months. It is really helping, although the strong feelings I had for my husband have not returned. The difference is that I do love him and know I do. I just don't have intimate feelings that often.<P>Regular depression can cause a lot of the same symptoms.<P>Please, if you are still with your wives, let them know that depression happens to alot of people. NORMAL people! There is nothing to be ashamed of if you have depression. If you can, try to get them to your family doctor to be assessed. The medication does not make you high, nor does it kick in immediately. It does take 2-3 weeks to notice a difference. <P>I know my husband is thankful that I had the sense to get treatment. I am too. I am much happier and don't feel bad about myself anymore.<P>I hope this helps.<BR>