I know I am not my usual, cheery self today, but I am having a bit of a downer day.<P>As you all may remember, I moved into a new house about a week and a half ago. Well, about two weeks before the move, I recognized that moving is hard enough and we didn't need any additional stress in our lives, so for the past month, I have just been waking up, going to work, coming home, making dinner and doing dishes, packing/unpacking, and going to bed. On the weekends we packed or cleaned the new house or cleaned the new house or whatever (except this past weekend, I went to a dog show). Our one escape has been on Sunday nights when our whole family goes bowling together; however I am a HORRIBLE bowler (my average is 87!), so it's not exactly a fun recreational activity for me--my H's average is 150+, so he LOVES it!<P>Anyway, for approximately a month now we have not had one deep conversation, or one discussion about our relationship, or even one talk about anything personal between the two of us--our kids, but not us. We just ignore everything and "pretend" that everything is fine between us. It is making me crazy!!! We don't discuss how to recover from his numerous affairs, we don't read relationship books together or apart and then discuss them, we don't listen to tapes or go to classes--hell, we don't do ANYTHING except work, work, work on this damn house!! The part that kills me the worst is that it seems to me as if my H is perfectly happy acting like this--he wants nothing more than to "look" happy. He has absolutely no desire to try for something deeper, despite the fact that I have told him and told him and told him that this is one of my biggest needs! I am dying, but he is obliviously happy and sees no reason to change!!<P>So . . . after a month of no progress (well, we didn't kill each other during the move, so maybe that's good), I thought I would take the initiative and call to some marriage counselors around town. My son is seeing a counselor that is paid for through my insurance, so we had planned to pay our own way through marriage counseling for a while. Well the least expensive counselor is $85.00 per session. This is fairly expensive, but I looked at it as if it would be a commitment to our relationship. HE looked at $85.00 or more and said, "That's a HUGE waste of money for someone to throw a bunch of useless psychobabble at me. We don't NEED counseling! There's NO WAY I'm paying that kind of money every week. We might as well burn it."<P>I'm so low I could just cry. I'm the only one who wants this! I'm the only one fighting and trying and working SO HARD to have a better relationship, and no one else seems to care. Why am I struggling so? Why not just give up? I could just live here with my family and have quite a nice life. We own a nice home and both have newer, paid for cars, and we have plenty of money. Why isn't that enough? God! I just feel like I have SO MUCH MORE I would love to share with someone, and no one else besides me will ever get to share any of ME! It's so discouraging that I just don't feel like playing today. <P>I want a big, old teddy bear hug. WAHHHH!!<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

{{{{{FaithfulWife}}}}}}}<P>No advice....just said a prayer for you. Hope you can just lay all this at the foot of the cross and let Jesus comfort you.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

<B>{CJ}</B><P>This knight grants you permission to consider CJ first.<P>For once.<P>For you.<P>For...<P><BR>ever...<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))<P><BR>I hope that helps a little bit 'ol friend

I just finished watching Dr. Phil on Oprah so this may sound kind of harsh but I think you need counseling for yourself to figure why you are continuing in this marriage. He has had affairs for years, he lied to in order to get you to reconcile, he doesn't give a damn about your needs, he has been verbally abusive. Have you considered that he may have Narcissitc(sp) Personality Disorder? I read a post where you talked about the abuse you suffered as child. Have you ever dealt with this in counseling? Sometimes we repeat childhood behavior patterns in our adult relationships. Maybe you feel somehow you deserve to be treated badly by the your h?

This is just one of those down days we all have. In fact, I'm having one too. I am completing all my end-of-the-year paperwork as a special ed teacher and am emotionally and physically exhausted.<P>Gosh you must be too after working so hard with no recreation. Hope that you can find something to do that will cheer you up. But these days will pass.<P>I'm ready for mine and I know your good days wil come soon.<P>Hope this helps.<P>Martha

Oh sweetie,<P>(((((CJ)))))<P>Ya know, I agree with KalGirl, and it is only through reallizing that this was my truth that I finally got out myself.<P>It's abuse, CJ, and unless there is a COMPLETE turn-around, you will continue to go through this over and over and over...<P>My first clue, in year four of our marriage - pool lady, telling me to tell my then-H to leave her alone... shoulda been a clue, eh? Then, in year seven, the first affair that I knew of, then the second, and third, and god knows how many daliences in between... and then at the end, more and more and meaningful hug woman, and girl next door who thought of him "like a father"????... give me a break... a 40 year old gorgeous man, a father figure to a woman who's been married three times?... barf...<P>I am so sorry for your pain... and most especially that it continues... and continues...<P>...sigh...<P>{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>I am so sorry. I was truly hoping for you that things were going good since I hadn't heard anything from you for awhile.<P>I wish I had a teddy bear to send you. I would do it in a heartbeat!<P>Take care of you. Do what is best for you. And just know that you have friends out here who love and care about you very much!<P>~Java

CJ-<P>Got the mail...quick reply!!! Do you just "know" when there's mail...anyway...Someone posted it on MB before and it's worth saying again..."It's nothing a 2x4 can't fix."<P>He's got to want to see what he's doing...you can't make him and it will only drive you nuts if you try (but if you can make him let me know how you did it so I can try it out on my W). This is your test of patience...doesn't it su*k...I have much disdain for the "p" word.<P>DD

((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))))))<P>I'm so sorry for your sadness... Your H's behavior is standard issue for ISTJ's, and unfortunately unlike us "trying" ISTJ's (like yours truly), he seems to be perfectly content in his ways...It is so sad, especially when you are working so hard at making things better...<P>AGG

Well, CJ, here's what I'd be tempted to do...<P>First, I'd go to the bank and get 85 one-dollar bills. I'd pile them all in the biggest skillet I had, grab a lighter or a box of matches, and haul everything over to wherever my spouse was. Then, I'd set the bills on fire.<P>Sometimes an "S" type needs a more visceral form of communication than us "N" types. And in my own opinion, this would be well worth the $85.<P>Oh, and about the bowling. It seems to me that with an 87 average, you've got more potential for improvement than your husband does. This is a positive! After all, who would find bowling interesting if they could bowl a 300 every time?<BR>

(((((BIG OLE TEDDY BEAR HUG TO CJ)))))<P>Sorry I'm so late with my hug. I know the feelin our Jester feels pretty low today, himself.<P>Peace be with you.<P><P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

(((((((((( CJ ))))))))))<P>Hope today is better for you!<P>I like GDP's visual aid idea! I can just see burning $1.00 bills right now! Makes a person wonder, hum, your H can buy a new house but on the other hand he can't "afford" to work on the marriage. Does that speak volumes!?!?!?<P>Sorry CJ, I'm down and out at home this week with sinus infection/bronchitis, I wish I could offer you more, my attitude stinks today.....gotta run and get horizontal. I'm sitting here with my head spinning like in the "Exorcist".......<P>((((((((((HUGS FOR CJ))))))))))<P>Ragamuffin

((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))<BR>((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))<P>Hi CJ, I'm so sorry to miss your post. I am only getting here every few days now and only trying hard to keep up with the familiar names because of soccer and ,...you know...life in recovery...ugh!<P>Anyhow, I only read the replies to you briefly, but here is my opinion, and you know I am going only to be honest with you. <P>I think that of course, you need some individual counseling (me too, where can I get some with no insurance??) but I don't think its to determine "why" your doing this. I think it's just to give you some skills to work thru this and understand what happened and how to avoid it from happening again. This place is a great start, but its not enough.<P>So it's been a month with no deep talk. OK. HOWEVER, it's been a month! You made it thru a month of recovery so far and a move. Two very stressful events. Take it easy girl!! Go slow. You have time.<P>Rebuilding is going to take time. I'm not sure about your ex, I might have asked you this before, but Tom gave me a great personality profile once before , that I'm telling you once he gave it to me, I began to understand men around me so much more easier. <P>Most men I know, as friends, ex's, whatever, don't care to have deep relationship talks. Not even when they are in love and in that honeymoon period. Not all men can open up like that to a woman . I would imagine it's worse when he knows that you want to talk about something that he might be embarrassed or ashamed of.<P>I dont' know what kind of deep talks your talking about, but here is an example since my ordeal, we've talked deeply about 3 times, but I squeeze in some of my questions/concerns during good happy playful times. An example was I was very concerned about a trip bf was taking for 4 days with 10 people from work...would there be >....WOMEN THERE??? I didn't want to seem too jealous (but of course, I worry), so I asked while we were joking around and he laughed so hard he couldn't believe it. It is a trip with 10 guys AND his dad is going along! But he knew it was important to me to understand.<P>Anyway, my point is that I don't know how you can talk deeply without a foundation of some sort first. And if your h says the word "psycho babble" he sounds anti counseling already. But we can't afford a counselor either, and what we try to do is spend time together, quality time alone, and with a group , and with each others kids, and alone, and with our own kids. Sounds like a lot huh? It is. But the deep talks , are not going to happen until we get all the little stuff worked out.<P>I would say this. You just moved. Give it a few weeks to settle down. He is at least there, with you and the kids. OW is gone. You have a new house that you told me you are starting to enjoy! Didn't you say you had a hot tub or something? Crack open some wine when those kids are in bed and you two go have some fun. NO DEEP talk in the back of your mind. Just go sit, and relax and get used to being near each other.<P>If he is afraid you are going to look for an opportunity to talk every second he's alone with you, he might start avoiding it possibly. It sounds by what you say, that he is a conflict avoider, a term I only recently learned about, but sounds like he is ok with jumping back into the relationship, but not wanting to address the issues.<P>So maybe some counseling for you, to start off. And some time with you and him alone without "deepness" and some patience. It's going to take a long time but your hanging in there!<P>By the way, what are his needs? If he hasn't told you, what do you think they are? I'm guessing conversation is not one of them? You can still work on some of this great MB stuff til he comes around, but don't give up too soon.<P>HUGS, Dana<BR>PS Write to me anytime, you know where to find me if I don't reply on a thread.<BR>

I had the same thought about the $85, Gnome de Plume.....

Sorry I am late, I haven't been here for awhile (away on business).<P>I totally agree with getting individual counceling (I think it is something I need too). I am sorry for the very difficult time you are having, CJ. {{{{{CJ}}}}}}<P>It is weird, since I have been away about a week and not posting here, I have had several ups and downs. I didn't have the opportunity to post here and boy did I have alot to say, especially during the lows! I rode the storm and am now on an up-swing. <P>I feel like we are kind of going through this reconciliation thing together CJ. I really appreciate your openess about the whole thing, it is very helpful to me.<P>Take care of yourself, and know that I care<BR>Petrie<BR>

I have a slightly different take than some of the rest. This being the D/D board the focus often tends to be on healing after divorce, and individual counseling may be indicated. It might be helpful to CJ as well, or for any of us. However, as I posted on her thread in EN, I think the individual counseling she needs is individual marriage counseling if he won't go also.<P>It seems to me that the sadness she feels is normal, as long as it's not too overwhelming. You can't be in a relationship and remain emotionally open to your partner without risking some pain and sadness. Vulnerability is the only alternative to the state of withdrawal in a marriage.<P>If a local counselor, I think it should be someone who can help her either come up with a plan she thinks will work, or else go with a Harley. As smart as we all are, I think that someone with a successful track record, who has seen <B>a lot</B> of situations develop over a period of time, can offer a perspective that will be helpful even if it's just a session now and then to help CJ either stay on track or decide if it's time to quit.<P>I think part of the problem is that we tend to focus on maybe 6 months in Plan A while a WS is having an A. Recovery may take much longer, so the right perspective can be critical.<P>Just my thoughts FWIW.<P>Steve

I was in recovery with my exH a long time ago. Like I've said in the past, it was well over a year before I felt like I really made some good progress. <P>I also think the individual marriage counselor is a good idea. I've heard that going to the wrong one can destroy things so definetly someone with a very good rep for saving marriages/repairing marriages.<P>(((((Petrie))))))) Welcome back

<B>(((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))</B><P>My dear friend. I am so sorry to hear about your blues. <P>Please thing, dear one. You've been such a wise woman for so many people here that you need to use your gift for yourself now. <P>Do you think you might have the symptoms of depression? I know that it doesn't necessarily start out as depression - it can start out as situatuional depression and then become full-blown clinical depression. I know you say you are into herbal remedies for some things. But herbal remedies, such as St. John's Wart can have more variation in effectiveness than traditional pharmaceuticals. <P>But I definitely believe you need some counseling - even if you are the only partner who will go. Right now you're not doing well so you can't recover well. And the road back will be long. And difficult. Besides, aren't we sisters? Didn't I go get a new counselor? And, you know, I really feel like I'm doing better with my children. And they aren't the issue at hand.<P>Now, you work for the feds, right? Do you have an EAP (Employee Assistance Program)? They should be able help you find someone. And don't worry about filing it on your insurance. GET A GRIP - it's well worth swallowing your pride and letting them pay most of it if it will help keep your head on straight. This is why you pay your premiums!!<P>Please, dear soul sister, talk with someone. You owe it to yourself. <BR>