I didn't really know what to title this thread, because it covers a lot of ground. Some may remember me from much earlier posts, and I am really struggling with my situation. Any input would be greatly appreciated.<P>My H and I were never really compatible. Our lifestyles, background, morals, etc. were always different. In analyzing why I married him, I realize that it was because of my own childhood issues. But, I do believe that the vows I took should be honored, so I tried to make it work. And I did, at one time, love him very much. I have grown a tremendous amount and have changed since we began dating, and even more since we married. Partially because when we first married, he worked in the oil field, and was away for weeks at a time, leaving me free to experiment and explore my life.<P>In these experimentations and explorations, I came to understand who I am and what I want from life. I slowly became involved in spiritual studies and found a religion that "fits" me. My husband (an atheist) has told me repeatedly that all religions are bogus and childish, and that I am childish for believing in it. He cannot stand anyone that I met through my religion (or any of my friends and family, for that matter) and has been rude to all of them to the point of running them off.<P>There was also an issue of emotional/verbal abuse in our relationship. He has, throughout our entire relationship, committed all of the "love busters" Dr. Harley talks about. This got worse and worse through our marriage, to the point that I filed for divorce and kicked him out of the house. We are now in counseling, and he has come a VERY long way in this area, and is treating me well now.<P>But now, I am faced with several life-changing decisions. I no longer feel any physical attraction to him, in fact am repulsed by him touching me. The months of counseling and his treating me well are not making a dent in my feelings. I also realize that I will never be happy if I am not allowed to associate with friends that I consider family, and am not allowed to pursue my religious beliefs. To make matters worse, I have been overwhelmed with the feeling that I am being called to the ministry. I have been fighting this call for several years now, and it is only getting stronger.<P>Given all of this, is there any hope? How can I heed my call to the ministry when my husband cannot even support my religious beliefs? How can I regain physical attraction for a man that repulses me? And what of my life should I be willing to sacrifice because I married the wrong person?<P>I apologize for the immense length of this post. As you can see, I am struggling very hard with this, and while I know what I think needs to be done, something in me doesn't want to do it. I don't want to hurt my husband further than I already have, I don't want to cause our 2yo daughter pain, and I don't want to break up our family. But I also want to be happy.

Meghann,<P>From what you've said, it sounds like you've had serious marital problems. But your husband has been a willing participant in counseling, and he's come a long way.<P>I would encourage you to continue your counseling, and see if thing can further improve.<P>Your two main areas seem to be on sexual desire and your issue with becoming a minster. You apparently have developed a sexual adversion to your husband through his treatment of you. This can be treated successfully. If your husband continues to follow the "MarriageBuilders" plan to build your relationship, my guess is that you will gain those feelings for him. You don't say how many months it's been, but it sounds like you'll need more time. <P>Your call to the ministry should come under the policy of Joint Agreement. You and he should be able to discuss your desire to join the ministry. He should be able to do this without belittling you. It's going to be a stretch if he is a true "atheist", but I even know of some atheists who now believe in God. But irrespective of the difficulties, you should sit down and try to negotiate a solution to your dilemma that you both enthusiastically agree upon.<P>God would not call you to his service through a divorce. Satan, yes... but not God. This may be a trial or test for you, but I suggest that you come up with creative ways to endure this situation. It looks like you're in the process of healing the marriage: give it time and patience. Your happiness doesn't lie in the self-centered pursuit of your career through a divorce and the destruction of your family. It lies in you (and your husband) learning the skills necessary to build a marriage that thrives and is based on mutual respect and love. That'll be something that you'll be much prouder of in the end. That's something that God would be proud of.<P>Stick with it. God Bless.

Thank you for your reply. I am mostly concerned that there are SO MANY things wrong with our marriage. I mean, when you consider: (some of these weren't in my original post)<BR>Financial Irresponsibility (we've already declared bankruptcy and are already back in debt again less than a year later)<BR>He can't stand my family<BR>He can't stand ANY of my friends, especially those that I met through my religion<BR>None of my family or friends will associate with me while I am with him<BR>He puts down my religion and ridicules my devotion to my religion (I haven't even brought up the minstry to him)<BR>Verbal/Emotional abuse (yes, he has made progress, I'm not sure it's for good)<BR>I dread spending time with him because I no longer enjoy being with him<BR>I dread him touching me, the thought repulses me (and he is becoming VERY impatient with our lack of sex)<BR>We have no recreational activities or other interests in common<BR>He refuses to help keep the house clean, even though we both work (he helps clean up every few weeks, but refuses to do anything to maintain cleanliness even though I and our daughter suffer from asthma and allergies)<BR>He does not take his share of the responsibility for our daughter<BR>He does not take care of his health, and has significant health problems that he refuses to do anything about<BR>He sabotages my attempts to keep only healthy food in the house (I am trying to lose weight because of my own health concerns) and sabotages my attempts to exercise regularly<P>He has come a long way in counseling, but he has a narcissistic personality, and is already (we have been in counseling since November) wanting to know why he is having to make all the changes and do all this work when I haven't begun having sex with him again. And honestly, I am becoming frustrated with the process, seeing as even after all this counseling, I still don't want to spend time with him, and I don't want to become intimate with him to any degree.<P>I know it sounds like I am coming here looking for absolution to leave him, but I really want to know when there is too much stacked against a marriage, and when there is still hope. I believe that the vows we took should be honored, but not at all costs. My personal costs are mounting up rapidly, and I don't see things getting better with him. How much am I expected to give up in order to keep my marriage together?

Meghann,<P>Have you shared your list of complaints with him? How does he feel about it? I'm guessing that you both have problems being honest with one another, and communicating effectively (without lovebusters).<P>You might want to try a different strategy (if you're not doing this already), and start meeting needs that you haven't met for him to involve yourself in this process of recovery. The sex is a tough issue: if you really are "adverse" to it, forcing yourself to have sex will probably only worsen your condition. But I would bet that there are other needs that you haven't been meeting for him, and perhaps you could focus on that.<P>It does seem to me that you've "given up" on the marriage. I can see your side: it looks like a bunch of "overwhelming" issues against your husband. But I wonder what his side looks like. And I wonder if you can't work towards compromises on this. None of the issues you've stated below are insurmountable. You need to evaluate how quickly you need things to change, and discuss this with your marriage counselor. If you're not happy with the speed or direction of your current counselor, I'd suggest finding someone else.

Meghan,<P>K has given you some very sound advice and insight. Since you and your H are in counseling right now, stay with it. Continue to strive for openness and honesty without lovebusters. I think the reason you have not regained sexual and romantic interest in your H is probably because he continues with lovebusters..... maybe not the real damaging ones, but I bet he continues with the small ones that keep adding up. Unfortunately, the good things he does probably keep getting wiped out in the process. So, it sounds like you need more time, like K says, for your H to practice "building love units" without depleting them with lovebusters (in Harley language). He can't put in $1, but withdraw $2 the next day. That leaves you -$1, or in the hole. That's where you are right now.<P>I would be interested to hear your H's take on things. Have you two filled out the emotional needs questionaire? Do you know your H's Love Language (a book by Gary Chapman)? Do you know the things (besides sex) that will make him happy? Another great book to read on this subject is by Harville Hendrix called "Getting the Love You Want." Like K says, I think if you start making him feel good, he will be more open to making you feel good. Don't force yourself into physical intimacy, though. I also agree with K that forcing yourself to have sex with him when you are feeling like this will only backfire.<P>I know it sounds like you are up against a lot,and certainly not to diminish your concerns, but many couples overcome even more devastating circumstances than yours. Just take a walk on the infidelity board if you don't believe me...... right K?<P>Let us know how you are doing. God Bless.<P>------------------<BR>No one said this was going to be easy.<BR>

Thank you both for your support. I know we have had serious communication problems, and continue to. My H's viewpoint is that he is the one having to do all the work, and the only need he claims I am not meeting is his need for physical closeness and sex. And he has made many major changes: he is treating me well the majority of the time (a very big step, involved eliminating angry outbursts, and disrespectful judgements, and uncaring behaviour), he is helping more with our daughter, and he is trying to not let his hostility show to my family and friends. <P>The problem I am facing now is that he sees no reason to continue making changes unless I start "putting out". If I bring up the "little things" that still bother me: his hostility showing to my family/friends anyway, his refusal to help keep our home clean and healthy, his tendency to just let me handle all the parenting unless he feels like helping, his undermining my attempts to become physically healthier, etc. then he considers me a demanding ***** and pouts that I expect him to do everything. Or he starts telling everyone that I am under all this stress, and am treating him badly because of the stress I am under at work, and that I need to go back on my anti-depressants. (Mind you, no one else, my doctor included, think I am having problems dealing with my work stress, and also don't think I need the medication again.) So I end up feeling guilty for harping on all the little things that bother me when he has made such major changes in his behaviour. And that causes me more stress than all the problems at my work put together. In fact, I would rather be at work with clients screaming at me and multiple deadlines than to go home to be with my husband.<P>Our counselor is telling us that we will not make any further progress until we start spending recreational time together again and start re-learning how we used to feel about each other. But here's the crux there: we never had recreational things we enjoyed together except for snow-skiing (we went twice together in 10 years and neither of us can do it anymore, and we live in Texas) and country/western dancing (another thing we can't do anymore because of his physical conditions). Beyond that, all we did when we were dating was go out to eat, go to movies, and have sex. (sorry if you have a problem with pre-marital sex, I didn't at the time) And now, there is nothing that I want to do with him. All of the things he likes to do I can't stand, and I don't really enjoy spending time with him anymore. Our initial relationship was built on old emotional baggage on both of our parts, and was not built on common goals, morals, ideals, or interests. Looking back, I consider it a mistake on both of our parts.<P>And please don't get me wrong, he is a good man, but has faults I don't know how to live with. And I don't think I should have to give up everything that is important to me in order to have a marriage. Some things, yes, but EVERYTHING? And how much change can I expect him to make just so that I will be happy in our marriage? None of this is fair. Not that anyone said it would be, but it would be much easier if he were a monster.<P>Sorry to ramble on and on, but I get so little constructive help from my friends and family. They have seen the years and years of abuse and pain this man put me through, and they just want to see me happy again. And they think he will do it again as soon as I drop the divorce suit, so they think the only answer is to finalize the divorce. Maybe they're right, but it helps to talk to people who really believe that a marriage is worth saving.

Meghann,<P>You say that you shouldn't have to give up EVERYTHING to be with your husband. I agree. But from how you've painted the picture of counseling, it sounds like you're giving up nothing. And it does appear if your husband is doing most of the work. And somewhat successfully. With little "results" (yes, you can read that as sex) for his investment.<P>This may be a completely inaccurate picture of your counseling, but that's how it looks. And I'd agree with your counselor, you need to spend more recreational time together. Discover some things you like to do together. Negotiate on some things that you have doubts about: you can attend the ballet (which I'm sure he loves), and he can help you work on blueprinting your stock car engine (you get the picture... )<P>My feeling is that the years of abuse have put you "in the hole" in the lovebank, and it's going to take TIME to fix. But it will help your cause tremendously to give your husband honest feedback and POSITIVE FEEDBACK when he's doing a good job. You are putting him at a severe disadvantage by not meeting his needs for physical affection and sex: and I'm sure that it's hard for him to change all his bad behaviors without getting something in return. I would encourage you to try to find ways to meet some of those needs without causing "harm" to yourself.<P>I'll give you a synopsis of my story, Meghann, becuase I feel that I'm in a similar boat to your husband, and I'll give you a bit of his perspective. As "wonderful" a man as I am, I was hard on my wife. Disrespectful, angry, and demanding at times. She brought problems to the marriage too. But eventually, she ended up feeling as you do. No love. Couldn't understand why she married me. You know the feelings. <P>My wife had an affair (please don't...). She went elsewhere for the validation and love that she was missing (perhaps similar to your use of the church and ministry, but not exactly). When I discovered this affair, I figured my marriage was over. My wife was not "this kind of person", and I knew it was very serious. I got counseling (here). I worked very hard. For 6 months while the affair was ongoing, I eliminated the lovebusters. Well, it never appeared to have much effect, so I ended up separated from her. <P>Fast forward: she got pregnant by the OM, started having a breakdown. I moved back (under a "no-conditions" agreement). She finally ended the affair. We went through withdrawal. Our marriage started growing, slowly at first. Then more rapidly. The baby was born at the end of last year.<P>Now we have a marriage that has become much better than it ever was. We have honesty, communication, and no lovebusters. My wife now thinks I'm the best husband in the world. We have almost the perfect marriage...<P>but, NO SEX (over 2 years for me). NO PHYSICAL AFFECTION (unless I initiate it).<P>Now you see where I have some sympathy for your husband's plight. I am frustrated at times, but I haven't given up. I know that God wants our marriage completely restored. My wife does too. I am willing to endure patiently, be creative, and try everything at my disposal to overcome that last "emotional" hurdle my wife has. I will be successful. I tell myself that all the time.<P>You would probably think me a great husband. And you might have a difficult time understanding why my wife would not be making love to me. But you didn't deal with my past. I've changed my behaviors to benefit my wife, our marriage (and me, too). But it takes time and patience to see those results. I'm wondering if you're seeing the glass as "half-empty" with your husband, instead of "half-full", and that he's filling it up, but getting tired of the effort. I encourage you to HELP him continue to fight for your marriage, and for you to look at the possibilities of a wonderful life together.<P>You can be successful, if you try!<P><BR>As an aside, you should limit contact with family and friends who can't support this. They have your best interests at heart, but those well-meaning intensions can be very hard on a marriage in recovery. My parents and family were very supportive of my attempts to recover our marriage, and that was a source of strenght to me. If they hadn't been, I wouldn't have "let them close" to the process.

K, thanks for sharing your story. I hadn't realized you were male. (Sorry, gender bias raising its ugly head) I am glad your marriage is getting better.<P>You are partially correct, in that I haven't really given up anything in our counseling, because I have refused to let go of my entire life. I have had endless fights with myself about what I will need to do to have a happy marriage with my husband and if I am willing to do them. And in order to have a happy marriage, I will have to give up my religion (practicing, I mean, as I will never give up my beliefs), and I will have to discontinue relationships with my entire family and all of my friends, and I will have to suppress the things and activities I want to do in order to cultivate activities and friends that are acceptable to him. In short, I have to give up a big part of who I am and just about everyone who is important to me in order to have a happy marriage with him.<P>And I really do understand the male need for sex, and I want his needs to be met. I just can't meet those needs, and don't know if I ever will be able to. How fair is that to him? He is constantly making comments about living like a monk, and that makes me feel guilty that I am not meeting his needs, but my skin just crawls when I think about being physically intimate with him. And it's not sex that is turning me off, I'm still interested, just not with him.

Meghann,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And in order to have a happy marriage, I will have to give up my religion (practicing, I mean, as I will never give<BR> up my beliefs), and I will have to discontinue relationships with my entire family and all of my friends, and I will have to suppress<BR> the things and activities I want to do in order to cultivate activities and friends that are acceptable to him. In short, I have to give up<BR> a big part of who I am and just about everyone who is important to me in order to have a happy marriage with him.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I still see you practicing the "half-empty" mentality. You don't have to give up practicing your religion: you may have to do it without your husband, though. And I wouldn't be surprised if in a successful marriage he wouldn't find God too. You don't have to discontinue relationships with family and friends: I'm betting that if you were happy, and your husband was doing his best to contribute to your happiness, that your family and friends would be happy for you both.<P>It sounds like your counselor is familiar with some of Dr. Harley's work. If that's the case, has your husband eliminated all his "lovebusters" from your life. If he hasn't, you should sit down with him (and your counselor) and identify the remaining issues, and start to work on a plan to address them. If he's able to really change his behaviors to make your marriage a better place, I'm guessing that you will respond in kind.<P>Also, I'd suggest that the two of you learn how to put the Policy of Joint Agreement into practice in your everyday life. Once you do this, and learn how to negotiate in a safe and upbeat manner, you'd be surprised how effective this can be.<P>Meghann, it seems to me that you've labelled your husband based on his past behavior, and you're using that as an excuse to not get really involved in the recovery process. As someone who is interested in the ministry, you surely must be aware that one's happiness rarely comes from a self-centered direct pursuit of it. It usually involves the service of others. Including your husband. I sense in your posts a stubbornness and unwillingness to change: this is probably not REALLY the case, but you can't ever expect to have a successful relationship without learning to compromise, negotiate, change, adapt, and grow.<P>I'm an optimist: I believe that there is hardly a marriage that can't be saved. You say he's a good man. Just with different interests and values. Those differences could be a endless source of joy and discovery for you, if the two of you established a healthy, compatible marriage. Differences can be very healthy in a marriage. <P>On the sex issue. If I had an answer, I wouldn't have the problem (of course...). I think I'm making good progress in that regard: my wife's skin is no longer crawling, but she's far from enthusiastic about resuming. You have to throw in a baby, breastfeeding, sleep deprevation, and 20 post-pregnancy pounds into the issue, too. In your case, however, it sounds like you have a sexual adversion. I'd suggest that you read his Q&A on sexual adversion:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5047_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5047_qa.html</A> <P>My guess is that if your husband knew how he was making you feel about sex (bugging you makes you feel guilty, and that doesn't help...trust me, I know...), he'd stop. If you were working on your adversion, I bet that he'd be downright helpful, and that it might spur him on to work on other "lovebusters" that he has. <P>I've babbled on long enough. If you need support in choosing to stick with the marriage, I'll be happy to give it. To your husband too.<P>God Bless...<P>

What is "your religion"? Everyone seems to be assuming you are a Christian, which I hope is the case, but I get the feeling by the sound of your references to it that "it" is something else.<P>From one of the posts above it was stated that God would not call you to divorce for ministry, amen, an absolute truth.<P>Another says you must use the policy of joint agreement in your ministry decision. I totally disagree. Gods call cannot be ignored based on a trivial policy in a trivial book (trivial when compared to Gods call). The policy could however be implemented in terms of how you pursue your ministry. The Bible is quite clear about the Christian/non Christian marriage and more specifically the Christian wife with the non Christian husband. I know because I was one of those husbands. No longer.<P>So if we are talking in the context of Christianity, do not discount the working of miracles in your marriage, even having desire for you husband again.

Pragmatic - Thanks for replying. I hadn't been able to get to the board for a while, and just thought to check back today.<P>You are right, I am not a Christian. I follow an earth-based, goddess-centered religion. I don't often go into it in a setting that is so obviously Christian centered, because I don't like making other people uncomfortable. I had hoped by posting here to get some insight from those who have had a similar problem in their marriages with a Christian "call". I have been trying to deny this call and not make an issue of my religion hoping we can work things out in other areas to the point that we can find some common ground here. But I am finding that this approach is choking me, and cannot continue. I believe VERY deeply in my spirituality, and I am being called to serve, without a doubt.<P>If religion were our only problem, I am certain we would find a way around it. But the religion problem is tied up in all of our other problems. Although he claims he is agnostic, and has no religious beliefs beyond the existence of a supreme being (he calls it "The Force"), he apparently has serious moral issues with my beliefs based on his actions. If he finds out that I met a particular friend through my faith, he immediately classifies him/her as a wierd, immoral, and immature person, and is actively hateful to him/her. He pouts and mopes for days about the ONE retreat I attend per year, which is a women's retreat that energizes me spiritually beyond belief. How on earth could he deal with being, in essence, a minister's spouse should I heed the call I am feeling?<P>But, as I said, that is not the only problems we face. He is trying to make up for years and years of emotional and verbal abuse, self-centered acts, and failing to support our family financially, emotionally, or otherwise. And although I see the effort he is making, my feelings aren't changing, and I can't see myself ever being physically intimate with this man again. I think the abuse and lack of support has killed the love I once had for him. It has certainly killed my trust and respect for him. When this is compounded by the fact our lifestyles are so completely different, and our goals and values are so completely different, I can't help but feel that this is a losing battle.<P>The person who posted that it appears my mind is already made up is probably right. I have been turning this whole matter over and over in my head for weeks now, and haven't come up with a better solution than divorce. I can't even imagine a solution that would allow us to both be happy and stay together. If anyone has that solution, I'd love to hear it.

Meghann,<P>I still see a lot of "Taker" in your posts---you're putting your interests ahead of those of your husband and daughter (and that's not abnormal, nor am I abusing you for it).<P>I would suggest to you if you don't see any chance for your marriage, that you stage a divorce into a period of separation for a year or so, followed by a divorce. You should do so by trying to use the POJA with your husband. I'm guessing that he's not really aware of how you feel about him---that you're not being honest with him, or that he's not able to listen to you (or a combination of both, most likely).<P>This wouldn't be my first choice---seeing that you are experiencing progress, I would suggest that you continue with the counseling. It's my opinion that (especially when children are involved) you should attempt everything for maritial reconciliation before you throw in the towel. And I am somewhat confused by your situation: on one hand, you're here and trying (and I believe that you'd love a happy marriage with your husband); on the other hand you appear to keep moving the bar higher and higher so that your husband will fail, and you appear to exhibit a self-centeredness that would be very difficult to deal with in any relationship (spouse or child). I'm sure that I'm not getting the complete picture, but that's what I see from your posts.<P>My advice would be to try to go slowly through the divorce process---you're clearly not thrilled about it, but you also seem pretty hopeless for the marriage. Perhaps the time apart would either let you realize that your husband might worth fighting for, or that you really and truly have no love left for him.