I need your help terribly so I am posting this everywhere. I am nine months into "recovery", which is going NO WHERE BUT TO THE ATTY...faster than a speeding bullet. Here's the issue. H claims to have been a closet alcoholic. (There have been so many lies and manipulations over the last 9 months, I don't know what to believe.) He drank beers at home, 1 or 2 a night, but swears when he traveled for work, 20+ weeks out of the year or could get away without me, he would drink 12-18 beers a night. Anyway, at one point, he was leading us on the path to recovery that this affair only happened when he was drinking...OW was a co-worker that traveled with him. However, as more and more truths came out at my pushing, what he said just never jived so I could not let the affair go...he also statrted to physically abuse me which told me he was lying through his teeth and protecting his lies and her. They had motel room visits, plans and "dates" without any alcohol involved or thought about. H has also told me that he has a sexual compulsion (he frequented prostitutes and massage parlors prior to the affair and prior to our marriage...no I did not know until AFTER d-day), didn't know he could have a "better marriage" over an affair, never thought that the affair would "hurt me" and is a sinner (only turned to God after D-Day and I even doubt that he is truly "saved" as his actions, inactions and lack of emotions, except for anger, do not reflect Biblical standards...nor do mine as the rage and anger becomes overwhelming for me. It is not just about forgiving the infidelity now, but also forgiving the lies, the manipulations, the debt to cover his lies and rebuild on manipulations ans illusions, losing my home (He brought her here and made love to her not only more than with me but, in more places and wanting to be a "better lover to her than with me.)<P>Please help me to understand how if he was an alcoholic but could control his drinking at home, how, as he claims, this affair was an extension of the alcohol addiction...I am soooooo confused at this point and have had so many false starts on recovery because of his lies I just do not know where to put my beliefs, anger trust and healing, let alone how to start.

Slow down,<P>You asked enough questions in one paragraph for an master's thesis, maybe even a dozen or so.<P>I am a recovered alcoholic, going on 23 years of continuous sobriety. Infidelity is fairly common in alcoholic marriages by both the drunk and the spouse. It is a concurrant problem, not an innate problem. In my case, given the choice between booze and broads, booze always won. It is highly possible for infidelity to occur after recovery and after a long period of being dry.<P>Recovery from alcoholism, the use of alcohol in such a way that one's life becomes unmanageable, is the first step in any recovery process. A brain pickled in alcohol just doesn't process information like a sober one. It doesn't matter what other disorders exist, they cannot be dealt with until the alcoholism is treated. Once sobered up, any number of other disorders may manifest themselves in the alcoholic, but they are no more frequent or likely than in the general population that doesn't drink at all!<P>Hope you are in contact with a good strong Al Anon group.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

I can only speak for myself. I know that if I had a choice woman or booze booze always won. When I was in my addiction I was never faithful to any one I had a relationship with. But see for me getting sober meant so much more than just putting down the drink, that was the easy part. The hard part was looking at me and me behaviours. I lied maniputlated cheated controlling rageing anger verbal abuse.<BR>I can only speak for myself I WAS NEVER A CLOSET DRUNK, It is my opinion and nly my opinion that it just an excuse. I WOULD SUGGEST YOU WALK NO RUN TO YOUR NEAREST ALANON MEETING<P>------------------<BR>If you are living in the problem then you are not part of the solution!<P>I CAN'T<BR>HE CAN<BR>I THINK I WILL LET HIM

Thank you...I am grateful and appreciative of your taking the time to help me. To be honest, yes, I have been in counseling since 4 weeks after d-day. I have only attended one Alanon meeting. I have not been convinced that my H was/is an alcoholic. Part of me fears he is using it as an excuse...so many lies and manipulations, so much false healing, I just haven't been able to believe in this...However, EVERY response here tells me Alanon is the way to go...I am still interested in any insight and/or stories that anyone would share...I am just out of energy, patience and heart...I keep praying for the wisdom and the light...Thanks!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dun_z:<BR><B>...I am still interested in any insight and/or stories that anyone would share...!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Hearing the stories is a great idea. I have a whole bunch, but I would rather see you attend the Al Anon meetings and hear them in person. In my personal story, I haven't invented anything original.<P>For many families, the idea of alcoholism is difficult to accept. It is part of the denial, and the alcoholic family is almost always on a merry go round of denial. It is a disease that still isn't really understood, and one where doctors, psychiatrists and psychologists are notoriously ineffective.<P>My anonymous email address is Bumperii@Yahoo.com<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper<P>

dun_z,<P>This site was mentioned by someone on another thread a few days ago, I can't remember who (sorry) Maybe it has some information, although not traditional, makes sense to me.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.healthrecovery.com/Biochemical_Restoration.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.healthrecovery.com/Biochemical_Restoration.html</A> <P>Bumper, what's your take on the approach regarding alcoholism of the above referenced website? (if you get the chance)<P>Ragamuffin<p>[This message has been edited by Ragamuffin (edited June 08, 2001).]

Hi Ragamuffin,<P>Where you been hiding? Missed you, I like reading you posts.<P>Concerning Joan Matthews-Larson, I have deep reservations. I don't want to tell anyone that AA is the only way to sober up, it isn't. It just happened to be what worked for me and about a million other folks since it was founded in the thirties. <P>In the last sixty years or so there have been hundreds of reasearchers who claim to have found a cure for alcoholism, including a good number who were alcoholics themselves. To the best of my knowledge, most, if not all have been discredited. There was even one clown who claimed he could train alcoholics to manage their drinking. He is currently serving time for DWI and manslaughter.<P>One of the greatest speakers I ever heard was a priest named Father Joseph Martin. In 1971 he made a film presentation on alcoholism called Chalk Talk for the U.S. Navy. It is delightful, understandable, entertaining, and outright funny. If dun_z gets to a few Al Anon meetings, there is a pretty good chance someone there can get her to a rehab meeting where the film is shown. Just about every rehab in the country uses the film, and many have video tape copies they will let a group borrow.<P>Good to see you around, hope all is well by you and yours!<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

P.S.<P>RidenSober uses a signature line, I can't, He can, I think I'll let him. That is a direct quote from Father Martin's Chalk Talk. <P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

I'm not an alcoholic...but was well on my way years ago..<BR>I started drinking off an on at about the age of 12..it was my way of dealing w/ being sexually abused..alcohol was very easy it get..just had to open the refridgerator and there it was..my parents didn't say anything...my "family" joked about how much I could drink..telling their friends.."she can drink her dad under the table" (something to be REALLY PROUD OF) but in reality..I couldn't drink him under the table..but I did drink w/ him...knowing what was going to happen..he'd ask me to get him a beer...I got me one too..<BR>I quit for awhile..drinking only occassionally...then when I was about 17 I started drinking more..then would stop..then through out my early twenties..I drank almost daily..not wanting to face the turmoil going on within side me...but then I woke up one morning..wanting a drink..I was pregnant at the time..and had a decision to make...what kind of mother do I want to be to my child?? and I quit..cold turkey..it wasn't easy..and I did struggle...but I quit..<BR>and I can have a drink occassionally now..stop at one or two..and quit..because I still think of my kids first..I don't want them to see me drunk...I don't want them to see me throwing up over the toilet..hung-over..(like I seen my mother many times, my dad took pictures..just so that we could remember it) I also remember my dad being stopped by the police..for drinking and driving..but back then they didn't give tickets..they just threw the keys off to the side of the road..and made them sleep it off in the back seat of the car..I remember vaguely my dad and his father drinking and fighting..and the police getting called out to the house..and hauling them both off to jail..I remember my grandfather..throwing up drunk..and hollaring at me to get the hell out..wonderful memories..NOT!!! And I didn't want those memories for my kids..funny huh...because their dad<BR>is a drunk..they haven't seen him get sick..but they have seen the rages of anger..the holes in the walls..and live w/ a fear of their dad when he's drinking..he doesn't think he drinks that much..but drinking every day...as a way to deal with stress..is an alcholic..especially when the angry outburst..and the pushing the kids away when they want to spend time with you..and when you drink to the point that you don't pay all your bills..there is a PROBLEM!!! But hey...he doesn't see a problem...because I always sent him more money..whenever he ran out..because I didn't want to see him sleeping on the street or starving (he works out of town)...but..alas..I quit doing that this past year..and he started feeling the suffering and got mad,and took money away from the household....and blamed me..and blamed my affair..which it wasn't the affair that made me stop sending him money..I wasn't even seeing the OM at that time..I say I got smart after almost 1 1/2 yrs in counseling..I started looking inward..and looking at what I was doing...I was about to lose my home..my car..and was losing my sanity..to the point I'd rather die than live like that anymore...I finally gave him an ultimatum..get help..find another job..or move out..he chose to move out..<BR>I'll also add...he didn't use to drink around me..before we married..and even the first few months of marriage..he didn't drink around me..then he took a job that took him out of town..ALL the time..home one weekend a month..I believe he did that so that he could drink...and not have to hide it..he wouldn't drink the first six months or so that he was home that one weekend..but then he just didn't care anymore...and drank every time he was home..so the only weekend he was here...he was drinking..what fun that was for me..and three small children...NOT!!!<P><BR>So, I've been on both sides..of the drinking issue..and I know that until they decide to look within themselves to figure out why they feel they need to drink to deal with the day to day stresses of life..they won't quit..and they won't think they have a choice to quit..they will feel they are controlled by the alcohol..and in a way they are..they have given alcohol control over their lives..just as I did..but I chose to take the control back..and I am alot happier because of it..<P><BR>Hope this helps..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumperii:<BR><B>P.S.<P>RidenSober uses a signature line, I can't, He can, I think I'll let him. That is a direct quote from Father Martin's Chalk Talk. <P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I had the pleasure of hearing Father Martin in Persona on several occasions. He is outstanding, I only know that AA,ALANON and ACOA have turned my life around, After spending years chaseing those other cures, AA worked for me because I was never alone and always understood.<P>DUNZ try calling AA in the phonebook ask that office if they have a video library our intergroup office does and has fater martins chalk talk series available<BR><P>------------------<BR>If you are living in the problem then you are not part of the solution!<P>I CAN'T<BR>HE CAN<BR>I THINK I WILL LET HIM

I posted the link to the Health Recovery Center. I did so because it worked for me. After just a week on the program, I had no physical craving for alcohol. It was the strangest feeling, since I had never been able to control my urge to drink. I could quit for weeks at a time, but the craving for alcohol never went away. When I was not drinking, the uncontrollable need for alcohol would creep up on me after a day or two, and if I didn't satisfy that need it would just get worse and worse. <P>I couldn't go more than a couple of days without it, and when I started again, I would binge to try and "make up" for the time I was "off."<P>Now, that physical need is no longer there. It's just gone(at least until I stop following the program). I know that I'm still an alcoholic (my body chemistry hasn't changed), but I can vouch for the fact that (in my case, at least) the program works.<P>Where Matthews-Larson differs in her approach from traditional treatment is that she emphasizes the physiological aspects of the disease. She advocates <B>both</B> physical <I>and</I> psychological therapy in treating alcoholics. In fact, she recommends AA as a source of counseling and support.<P>Although I'm suspicious of some aspects of her program (mainly the dietary guidelines), I agree with the basic premise:<P>Alcoholism is not "all in your mind." It is a physical disease; a chemical disorder, and should be treated as such, and not treated as if it were a character flaw or lack of willpower.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by cjack (edited June 08, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cjack:<BR>[Alcoholism is not "all in your mind." It is a physical disease; a chemical disorder, and should be treated as such, and not treated as if it were a character flaw or lack of willpower.<P><BR>[This message has been edited by cjack (edited June 08, <P>2001).][/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually that program bowers a lot of its foundation from AA, the big difference is the diet. AA also speciafically states that the program of AA will not cure all that ails you, AA strongly suggests the use of outside sources, Drs, therapists, spiritual advisors. The fact that AA is recpommended as a system of support in this program should tell you alot. Every Rehab says you need AA. AA is the only proven program that works, even the Surgeon General of the United States says this. Could there be some truth in it? Try AA for yourself<P><P>------------------<BR>If you are living in the problem then you are not part of the solution!<P>I CAN'T<BR>HE CAN<BR>I THINK I WILL LET HIM

RidenSober,<P>Nicely said.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dun_z:<BR><B>I have only attended one Alanon meeting. I have not been convinced that my H was/is an alcoholic. Part of me fears he is using it as an excuse...so many lies and manipulations, so much false healing, I just haven't been able to believe in this...However, EVERY response here tells me Alanon is the way to go.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>dun_z, the only requirement for alanon (I believe) is that someone elses drinking is affecting your own life and behavior. There doesn't need to be an actual 'diagnosis' of alcoholism. Regardless of what you believe is true about your husbands drinking or not drinking, the fact that he brings it up as a reason is affecting you. My husband doesn't believe he has a problem with alcohol because he still thinks he can control it, and sometimes he does, but the times when he doesn't are becoming more frequent, so I attend alanon meetings and it helps. It's like exercise for me in a way; I don't really want to go but after I do I feel much better. <P>Just the support, listening and speaking about the things that are on my mind and in my heart, who couldn't benefit from that?<P>You're in my thoughts and prayers. Hang in ther.

Thanks to you all. Today I have been told that I am a terribly selfish partner that he just doesn't want to talk to or be around. It looks more and more like he always has and continues to see me as a bad person who made him do all these things. I am afraid posting in recovery is no longer where I shall be but, here will be my home. We are to meet again with our third marriage counselor, actually justy me tomorrow night...I'm fried. I just am out of hope, heart and faith. <BR>Much Appreciation and Sincere Gratitude...<BR>dun_z

Hi dun_z,<P>Got to love that logic. I'm not really an alcoholic, I never was, she drove me to drink. It is all her fault. Now, just where was it? It sounds like something I heard somewhere else before.<P>It became clear a long time ago that deception and self deception are kind of like having both hands in the same glove.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <B>"Self deception is easy, that which a man wishes, so he shall believe."</B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>.....Demosthenes<P>Deciet and deception are part and parcel of all of the compulsive-addictive behaviors. That is one of the reasons that the AA program of recovery places great emphasis on "rigerous honesty". Not perfect honesty, but rigerous honesty.<P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper<P>

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dun_z:<BR>[B]Thanks to you all. Today I have been told that I am a terribly selfish partner that he just doesn't want to talk to or be around. It looks more and more like he always has and continues to see me as a bad person who made him do all these things. <P>Hmmm sounds you really need to get to an ALANON meeting! It is really sad to see someone let themselves be destroyed by someone elses behaviour. Lord knows I have done enough damage to others during my addiction and even after. WHAT YOU NEED IS THE SUPPORT THAT CAN BE FOUND IN ALANON> You will find that you are not unique that others have and do go thru what you are . YOU ARE A GOOD PERSON GOD DOES NOT MAKE GARBAGE<P>------------------<BR>If you are living in the problem then you are not part of the solution!<P>I CAN'T<BR>HE CAN<BR>I THINK I WILL LET HIM