Oh, my friends! I had a terrible, TERRIBLE night last night and I just feel like I am dying inside. I just wish it would stop for a while. Gosh, is it such an unreasonable, unrealistic thing to want to be comforted and safe with my own H? Is that really such an unattainable goal? GOD! <P>I have been melancholy and blue for like a week now, and that is REALLY unusual for me. I kept wondering, "What in the world is the matter?" I mean, everyone is blue now and then, but usually a day or so later, I'm back to my goofy little self. Hey, sometimes it's even a hormone, cycle kind of thing, but I keep track of that pretty closely and it wasn't that (if you know what I mean). It took a combination of events for me to figure out what the problem is. I have stopped hoping, and in the back of mind that is always there and it makes me deeply sad all the time.<P>For a little background, my H is a self-employed workaholic whose office is in our home. This means that he has the ability to work all the time, and he frequently does. Well, for ten years I worked with him and helped him build our business to the point that we had ten employees plus the two of us. When he left me and chose the OW, I left the business and told him I would not with him anymore. For most of our married life, he has consistently chosen the work, the customers and the business over me. For example, if we have a date scheduled, we will go to a restaurant that is one of our customers and order our food and drinks. Right about then, along comes a manager with questions or a screen that doesn't work or a report (whatever), and my H will leave me there at the table and go off with this manager. They'll be gone until I have eaten my entire dinner and have ordered dessert-about an hour or more. Sometimes when he comes back, we have to go to the office to get them a new printer or something-and sometimes he just wolfs down his food. Then he says that was a DATE! As another example, if we have plans at home like, "tonight I am going to mow and CJ is going to work in the garden" and this is important to me because our yard is starting to look ratty-lo and behold. A customer will call and need him right away, and he just drops me and our plans and will be gone all night. Yup, he fixes up the customer and then sits there and has a drink or two and talks to the customer for fun. After years and years of being treated like this, it is a particular sore spot for me. When I have told him that this is how I feel, why then I want him to be a failure-he is responsible to the customers and can't let them down-and I am being unreasonable and demanding.! Oh brother! <P>Anyway, here's what happened. When we were first working on our marriage (I thought! Stupid me) last summer, I thought it would be neat to have a re-commitment kind of wedding to signify that we were re-committing. I went off and bought a dress and just one or two "wedding" type things (a pearly purse and some lace). Well, he DID NOT want to do a ceremony (of course because he was still fooling around) and he literally ran. I put the stuff in a box in the back of my closet and didn't worry about it. After we decided to reconcile this time around (Feb. 2001), I have told him that I would like to do a re-dedication type ceremony. Time and again he has said, "That sounds fun. I see this is important to you. Let me handle it" and then done nothing. If he sees it is important to me, why doesn't he DO something? OR why doesn't he let me do something? Nope, as usual, he just ignores it and hopes it will go away. <P>When we moved, I found the dress and the stuff again, and so the night before last night, I told him I was going to throw them away, because it hurts me to see them every day and be reminded that he doesn't want to re-marry me. I thought to myself, "I'll just let it go." Well, he started by saying, "Don't throw it away-just leave it to me…" and I said, "No. I can't keep hoping . It is hurting me every day to hope that some day you will do something, so I would just rather let it go. This ended up leading into a big fight about how I am the wicked witch and stuff, but in my head, a couple of bells started going off.<P>So the night before last night, we went to a little spot we like for ribs-my son was also watching a sports event. Naturally, we got there and he started right in changing one of the touch screens while we ate and watched the event. He came to the table and ate, and then went with the owner/manager to do some programming and create a report, and he was gone for about an hour. During that time, our waitress was cut and she wanted to cash out her ticket-but oops! He had all the money. I told her that he was up in the office with the owner, would she please tell him we needed him. Guess what he did? He gave the waitress a wad of money and said, "Give this to her" and he stayed up in the office! He didn't even bother to come and see what I needed or why!! <P>I was very upset by this behavior, and when we got in the car to go home, I said, "This is the last time I am going to be less important than work. I can't do this anymore. For years I have hoped and hoped and hoped that you would pick me and my hope is dying." His response was defensive and justifying and mean. Well, you know how these things go--after about a half an hour if you're not making progress, you're out of control, right? We were up until midnight, and finally, I just said I was not going to continue this conversation, it hurt too much, and I was going to bed. Naturally, in bed I couldn't really sleep a wink because my mind was just swirling away.<P>So, yesterday during the day, we had emailed back and forth a little, and he sent one that basically said, "I don't open up to you anymore because you rip my guts out and I'm vulnerable to attack." Heck, I didn't know how to respond to THAT, so I just didn't write back at all. I thought, "Well, at least I didn't start anything or respond poorly or say something that hurt him." Of course, HE thought I blew him off and he was mad about it. So AGAIN last night we fought all night. I kept trying to say, "We are not making progress-let's stop." I tried to keep it on one topic so we could "solve" a specific issue. A couple of times I even tried to walk away, but I wimped out and didn't leave the house. I probably should have. <P>I just feel inside like I can't do this anymore. I can't keep hoping I'll be important to him and have him keep ignoring me and picking work above me. It's killing me. I just can't do it! I WISH that his response would have been something like, "I had no idea this was hurting you so badly. You are much too valuable to be treated like that, because you are the one who is important to me. How can I help? Is there anything I can do?" Silly, huh? What a hopeless romantic I am.<P>There's really no need to reply, except maybe with a couple cyberhugs. I just wanted you'all to know that I figured out why I've been so bummed out for so long. <BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

{{{{{{{{CJ<P>Y'all need to get into counseling. Your husband's defensive walls and filters are so high that he is really incapable of hearing anything you try to tell him yourself.<BR>

I agree. That was my first thought.<P>I can sure relate to a H that SAYS he'll do something, but MONTHS later, it's still not done....it's very frustrating and would turn ANY woman into a witch in his eyes, if you ever...EVER....mention it again.<P>It's some kind of power trip, I think. My H never used to let me weed whack, mow, or whatever....he'd get mad and say "I'll do it." Well, he didn't and it never got done. It's only been since he's been gone that I've learned how to do all that stuff and I do it now every three weeks. Easy.<P>Anyway, I feel for you. My H used to put everything else before me too....if you are a hopeless romantic, then so am I. I think you expectations on how a person who says he loves you should respond are right on.<P>My good thoughts are with you...<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

Yeah, I know. That's what everyone says. However, as you know, he does not want to spend the $85.00.<P>I'm want to call the Harley's and talk to them on my own if I have to, but I'm wondering, wouldn't I be breaking POJA and stuff? I think I would be able to tell him I am going to talk to someone whether he comes or not, but I am worried he'll get mad about spending $85.00 on one person. <P>I don't know. Good, bad or otherwise, I guess I just need to do it, and if he gets mad, oh well.<P><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

CJ,<P>I was where your husband is at - Trying to work to make a business successful - having an office in the house - work, work, work. When I wasn't working, I felt bad like I was slacking off. In my mind I was working for both my wife and I, so whenever she would raise issues with work, I would get VERY defensive. I felt like she just didn't understand. But you know what? It was ME who didn't understand. Even though in my mind and heart I felt I was doing what was best for the both of us, I was doing the worst thing for both of us.<P>How did I come to this conclusion? Counseling. First we went together, then I went back by myself. Through a couple appointments, I began to unravel why I was working so hard and how I was living for the future and not enjoying today! My wife had said similar things to me throughout our marriage, but I never listened. I had to figure it out for myself and the catalyst in making that happen was the counselor.<P>By the time I "opened" my eyes, it was too late. My wife was too far gone from me. It is NOT TOO late for the both of you. You NEED to get to counseling. I have told you this before and for whatever reasons, it sounds like you still have not gotten there. How are you going to feel down the road when your marriage is over and you never tried counseling (even if it is you going by yourself - that is how my wife did it! Eventually after seeing her go once or twice I got curious and when she asked me to go, I agreed "just to make sure what she was telling him was the truth").<P>I don't keep saying it for no reason - I just so truly believe it will help the both of you. You are still in my prayers every morning. And God wants to help, but He wants you two to begin to help yourselves.<P>Try to get him to go and if not, GO by yourself.<P>God Bless,<BR>MIke<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

CJ,<P>You know what? I would send you the $85. (by the way, our counselor was $125 per 45 minutes and we ended up going about 20 times all said and told - BEST MONEY I ever spent. At first I was like him about the money. Then I realized I spend more money on fixing my car - Isn't my well-being and marriage worth more than fixing a car?<P>Or what if you look at it logically - say for arguments sake you spend $500 over the course of a several months. Now say you are able to save your marriage and it goes on to last 30 years (just using any number), if you work out the numbers that means it cost you ~$17/per year for your marriage. That doesn't sound too expensive to me......<P>Mike

(((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))<P>Now that's a curious question....would you be breaking the POJA by consulting with the man that wrote it? <P>I think that in this case, you need direction and advice for YOU. Do this for yourself. Call the Harleys and ask them if you are being "bad" and breaking the POJA by getting guidance and help!!<P>You know, my business manager gave me a call yesterday, and in the course of our discussion, he mentioned that we should always have guidance and representation in every aspect of our lives. Lawyers for divorce, therapists for our mental growth and progress, spiritual advisors for our relationship with God...sponsors for those of us workin the 12 steps...business managers for professional representation (a little self promotion on his part! ) and more importantly...marriage counselors for our marriage, ESPECIALLY in times like this.<P>You need more help than we can give you here CJ.<P>(((hugs)))<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

{{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>I have to totally agree with the counceling. <BR>I too need it (for myself and together with my XH)<P>So very sorry for you being so blue.<P>Petrie

CJ, do you <I>have</I> a POJA? It seems to me that the <I>first</I> thing that needs to happen in order to put the POJA in effect, is that you have to agree on the POJA. A unilateral attempt to apply the POJA just results in your being a doormat.<BR>

Aaaaaaaaaaaah, Gnome I think that was the wisest thing I have heard all day!!<P>CJ are you listening hon?<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

First, Mike, I wanted you to know that I do not think that spending $85/hr. to help our marriage is money poorly spent. I look at it as an investment and a wise way of spending. Plus, I am looking into an EAP here at work (an Employee Assistance Plan) and my health insurance may cover it. I just want to be clear that I am not the one looking at this as a waste.<P>Second, GDP, you bring up a good point that I didn't think of! We don't HAVE a Policy of Joint Agreement, so how can I break it? DUH! I just thought it might be going behind his back, but you bring up a good point, and I think at this point I need to do what I need to do. However, you have put my mind at ease a bit. Thanks! Sag, You're it.<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

CJ,<P>I understand about the work first family last thing...btdt..<BR>I went to counseling on my own..and I feel it was the best investment I've ever made on myself..<P>I also understand that "hope" stbxh kept telling me he would take time off from work between job assignments to look for another job..and he didn't..after having been in counseling<BR>for over a year..I had the courage to give an ultimatum because I couldn't go on like that anymore<BR>So I told him...<P>look for another job..or move out..<P>He took two weeks vacation..and went apartment hunting..<BR>he didn't go out and look for another job..like he'd been promising for years..and the one time he did go out and put applications in..one company wanted him to come back in ONE HOUR till the person who does the interviewing came back..<BR>said they were hiring..and he would want to talk to him..<BR>he made the excuse that he had to get on the road and get back to his job..and he left..and went back out of town..he couldn't even wait an hour...and another company that I'd sent the resume out to..(at his request) the VP of the company called..and asked me to have him call, said he'd interview him over the phone since he was working out of town...but HE NEVER CALLED HIM BACK!!! This was back in 1995/96..I should have given him the ultimatum then..and even since that time he's repeatedly said he would take time off between jobs and look...and never did..even last year May he said this (even took a few days off then..and didn't look)..and then in Sept..when it came down to choosing his job..or looking for another place he took the time off and found an apartment..even with all the other things that have happened..all the verbal abuse..the years of him throwing my past in my face..the condemnation..my affair..I still had hope..that he would do what he said he'd do..but I am learning to accept that he doesn't want to be here..he loves the job more..and thats been hard..but..it's getting easier..<P>But please..get yourself counseling..do it for you..not for your marriage..but for you..and maybe with that...your h will be like..some of the men here and get himself into counseling..and see that it helps him..and look at why he feels the need to work so much..<P>I understand why my stbxh has that need..because his dad was an alcholic..who would just up and quit his job..or would<BR>lose his job because he was to drunk to go into work, and they were dirt poor, living in a one bedroom home with 7 people...but..My knowing that..and Him knowing that are two different things..and he doesn't want to see it..and I can't force him to see it..and I can't make him see how that affects him..as far as he is concerned..it has no bearing on why he's the way he is..and as far as my past is concerned.."I should just get over it" it shouldn't bother me..but I didn't learn these things over night..it took two years of going to counseling..two days a week and to group once a week..and lots of reading..and self healing..and allowing God to work in me..to get me to where I am..not saying it will take you that long..but I was once told by my pastor that in dealing w/ sexual abuse issues that it takes about 18 months of intense counseling to really begin to get to the real internal healing..and then when you get to the point where you think you have hit the core issue..you still have another year..to work through things..and to allow yourself time to learn a new way of thinking..I know yours isn't about child abuse..and this is just my experience..but please..get yourself someone to talk to..and know that we are all still here too when you need us..<BR>

Oh CJ, I'm sorry I'm late <P>Is there any way to understand these men? I don't think so...<P>Yes, the counseling for YOU would be WONDERFUL, I think. Since you're a believer, find a good counselor who shares your belief system... there's nothing more frustrating that trying to work with a secular counselor who doesn't understand why you want to work "spiritually"...<P>Be choosy.<P>(((((CJ)))))<P>I don't know what to say about your H. I remember feeling EXACTLY as you do with my ex. I'd see progress, and than **SLAP** and another step back... and then a few forward, and then back again... back and forth, love and hate, pain and anger...so frustrating.<P>Sending you love and hugs, CJ.<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

<B>CJ</B>,<P>As I noted on the other thread, I agree with GDP. So, when's your first aptmt. with a Harley ?<P>Just a couple of thoughts here, no answers. First, maybe his workaholism relates more to fear of failure than preferring it over you. I know the result is the same , but I'm saying it's likely more just about him than about how he feels toward you.<P>Haven't you indicated that the business was significantly more successful before he left you? This likely makes it even tougher for him to let go now. It's hard for a control freak to relax, and he probably feels guilty or stressed if he stops working to enjoy himself. When you're<BR>running the whole world and responsible for everything, including the sun coming up in the morning, it's hard to take a day off.<P>My second observation follows from the first. You made the sad comment in a thread recently that you were afraid he just didn't want to lose some of his stuff, if it came to divorce. Well, if the business is down and he has significant financial obligations with the new house, he might have a hard time going it alone. You may have more leverage than you think.<P>Now demands and such tend to be lovebusters, but I've always thought that there was a little carrot and stick in the MB approach. Plan A, the carrot, Plan B, the stick. It's not presented that way, and there are significant risks in going to the stick. Anyway, I'd be very cautious about making an overt demand or threat, and only after talking to the Harleys. I'm just pointing out that you may be in a somewhat stronger position than you think.<P>Hope things are better today.<P>Steve<BR>

<B>{{{{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}}}}</B><P>Gosh CJ, I'm sorry I missed your post. I think you need to go to counseling. Alone, if you have to, but you really need to go. I had several sessions with Jennifer, and although they didn't do one thing to save my marriage, they helped ME.<P>I'm not in a very good position to give advice on how to save a marriage, I failed that one. But I was working on it alone. I think that makes it infintely more difficult, and you can't do it alone. A little caching my help you to negotiate/communicate your needs & feelings in a way that doesn't raise your husbands ire...<P>Take care...<P>------------------<BR>nick<P>it's only time that heals the pain <BR>and makes the sun come out again

((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))<P>Buddy, I have to reiterate this idea one more time....you guys need to get into counseling today. I keep reading your posts, hearing of your struggles and it appears that you are trying to save your marriage all by yourself. CJ, I know you are strong, probably stronger than most, but nobody can save a marriage on their own. <P>I agree with Nick in that you need to see someone on your own if your husband is not willing to go with you. I too can't offer advice on how to save your marriage, but I can offer counseling as a way to save CJ. I'm sure there is more to it, but I don't see your husband as making that much of an effort to improve your marriage. He won't go to counseling because he does not want to waste $85 a session to listen to some mumbo-jumbo. I personally would take that as a major slap in the face. There are places you can go and counselors you can see for less money. (You may want to email the Harley's and ask for counselor suggestions) Almost all churches or synagogues will have a couple in the congregation who are willing to offer marital help. Some of these people may not be trained professionals, but it is better than nothing. <P>You know, there are a lot of materials out here on the MB website which you can print off and work through together for free from your home. I know you have tried some of these, but I remember that your husband hasn't been very willing. In my opinion the money is just a lame excuse for him. Most people have a reason as to why they don't want counseling and usually it's because they don't want to face that truths that couseling will uncover.<P>CJ, I hate to say this, but if your husband is only willing to put forth effort when he feels like it, you are going to be living a very unhappy life as a very depressed woman. And for what I know of CJ, you are a fun-loving, energetic and up-beat woman who is definately not suited for a life of depression.<P>Take a step away from saving your marriage for a moment and please, please, please work on saving CJ.

<B>((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ))))))))))))))))))))))))</B><P>CJ - You are so special and this is, obviously, hurting you so badly. Please take care of yourself.<P>Even if you h won't go to counseling, you need to go for yourself. Check out the EAP. If money is an issue, then call something like your local Family And Children's Services. The nearest United Way office might be able to give you some guidance in finding a counseling agency with sliding-scale fees. Your local YWCA or YMCA might have resources to which they can refer you. There are plenty of doors open for you and I just wish I could help somehow. <P>I would love to see your marriage healed but what I am most concerned with right now is my friend. I don't like seeing her in this sort of agony.<P><B>(((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))))))))</B>