I had been doing a pretty good plan A for months.Through snooping I had known about ws and om, she denied and denied,I still did plan A. Unfortunately, my story gets more interesting. My w and I work together. Om works there too. I had found out that when w had won a cruise at work(I had also "won" through work; I declined) she went to om room in the early am and found him sleeping w someone else. W was distraught(sp?) crying,upset, etc. EVERYONE in our offices knows about this. In fact, we are the topic of choice for gossip.<BR> This trip was over on June 4, w and I are separating at end of month. W has been hanging out w single men from office; when she came home from watching the playoff game with them tonight I couldn't keep it in anymore. Told her I knew about the trip incident. That she was chasing om(ouch). She still denies affair. I asked her why she didn't tell me, what I fool I had been for loving her while she was doing this, etc. W said she was going to call police and have me tossed out. I said what would you tell them;what have I done wrong? she said whatever I want. I said that is the T--- everone knows.Man is she p-----. I have stood by like a moron, counselling w Steve, reading and reading, Plan A'ing like a fool. For this. <BR> Sorry for the disjointed post.She said she hadn't been completely honest, but there is / was no affair.She leaves work most days to go to his nearby house, hangs out, then comes home and is cold as ice to me.(she says" I want my space,there's nothing wrong w this, you're too insecure)<BR> I have really tried hard, maybe I started too late(duh!). W has her single, party life w these men. I think when she crashes it will be hard. I told her that when I'm gone, and she's left w cheating om, she'll wake up. She says I'm living a fantasy life! That I'm dreaming! W acts like she's living for the party, for the good time.She had been such a loving wife and mother. There is no hope here. It is such a waste. I have continued to love and try w a woman who is consumed by what she wants, who acts like a horny teenager while I'm trying to plan a and be loving.I told her she's destroyed my life and the kid's lives.She says I've destroyed hers?<BR> I was trying to create a "safe" environment, I guess it is beyond me at this point. How can anyone tolerate something like this? And I still wonder if there's something wrong w me for not "ignoring" this and plan a'ing. Steve said it needed to be pure. I did try . I am dying, dying inside.<BR> And of course I still love her.<BR> <P> <P>[This message has been edited by Family Man (edited June 14, 2001).]<P>[This message has been edited by Family Man (edited June 14, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by Family Man (edited June 14, 2001).]

OK, some questions for you:<P>Number 1 priority is to stop all LB, that is very hard, but you have to find some OTHER outlet for the vent than the WS.<P>Second, how hard would it be for you to show her compassion for being used by OM? <P>What if she is human, like the rest of us, and has a weakness for her emotional needs being met?<P>You need personal counseling to deal with the anger. . .<BR>we all do at some point.<P>good luck<BR>

Put the Flag Day incident behind you. There isn't anything else to do about it.<P>I attempt to maintain integrity in bits and pieces, which is an oxymoron if ever there was one. Find an area to work in...a patch of yourself. Work on that until you are done, then move on to another spot.<P>I'm not sure that I deserve any particular mention for what I am doing, not until there is a resolution to it, but thank you for noticing all the same.<P>Insight is like hindsight. There is really nothing like Instant Perspective to wisen us up. I posted this somewhere else around this forum, but I forget where. There are three things we do that take us to bad places. We need to stop that in order to succeed:<BR> Ruminate in the negative present tense. This is the obsessing you do about what she is doing. Let her go, what she does means nothing right now, understand? Quit attaching meaning to it, quit trying to explain it, leave it be.<BR>Predicting the negative future. That is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Would you rather be positive, and wrong? Or negative, and right?<BR>Pining for the positive past. This includes desiring a better present through playing the what if I had _____ game.<P>All of that is fiction. You are in non-fiction now. The questions being asked of you are:<BR> What is it going to take for you to change yourself? You have already lost much, how much more do you need to lose?<P>The questions you must ask yourself are:<BR> Is she worth the price I have paid already?<BR> Is she worth more than that even? How much is she worth?<BR> What is her worth to me NOW?<BR> What can I change about me that will make me more attractive to her?<P>Come to some hard realizations. There ARE some absolutes in this, accept that. For example, your marriage is over...it is done. So is mine...the state of Illinois says so, too. Even if you do not divorce, that marriage has been killed off. You are starting a NEW relationship with her, and you should act accordingly.<P>I also found it helpful to get closer to God, and realize what this all has to do with his plan for me, her, you, all of us. Your time would be best spent considering that, and praying for the strength to be the best man you can be. I will list some things that I have learned about how God expects ME to act, take what you feel comfortable with:<P>-Look at her as God sees her. You must forgive her, and all others, as well.<BR>-Speak kindly, and lovingly to her when you get the opportunity to talk to her.<BR>-Don't listen to any gossip about her at all. Don't start any, either.<BR>-Don't try to find out what she is doing.<BR>-Don't confront her, or others, either.<BR>-Don't look to her to supply your needs, look to God for that.<P>This is a hard road to travel, but it is the only one back to where you want to be.<P>Take care of yourself, and let me know how you are doing.<P>Finally, both e-mail addresses are good. The one from my domain is permanent, the netexpress one may not be. Use either at your discretion.

waiting_for_her - Thanks. I agree, I agree.

.<p>[This message has been edited by Family Man (edited June 27, 2001).]

Change your mind, did you? Aw, c'mon...it is ALL good here, let it out!<P>Seriously, if you talk about it here, there's no penalty. I honestly don't see how you could be in worse shape than I am in now, and I've had just about every thought two men can have on this ALL. It helps me to lay it out like that. Your thread sis languish for a while, but I'm here with you, we are in this together, friend, to the end. We can make it a good ending, but you've got to let it all out, and then pull it back in healed. GO ahead...let it out.<BR>

WFH - lol, Well, I hit the "back" button and repeated my post! But I have a couple questions...<P>1). Have you ever counseled w the Harley's? How were you able to incorporate their advice? <BR> - My wife and I currently seem to get along very well.The kind of outburst that happened on Flag Day has not occured again. We seem to enjoy each other's company. She says she wants to be "very good friends", wants me to be a big part of her life; continue to go to church as a family, we've made plans to go to the shore next week and stay overnight, shopping together, etc. Not attaching meaning to what she is saying is attractive; but it is hard to stop. Attaching meaning is how I determine my status.Probably a flawed strategy, she seems to be all over the map.<BR> Steve H says to embrace the opportunity to interact as friends.I noted it's demeaning, insulting. He says of course.He says if I feel I'm enabling her, feel like a doormat, these are signs of a successful plan A.Steve says if I feel that my taker is being fed,then I've chosen a bad action. My family thinks that plan a is nuts. They seem concerned that I will be in some sort of "subservient" role; providing for her needs without getting value in return. They argue that she has torn apart my (our) lives, shows little remorse or sorrow, and the implication is that by being nice I am bieng stepped on.She will be stringing me along, using me while having a great time w OM.They say she's gone way beyond disrespectful and manipulative behaviour. I can see that point. They advocate for distance, both emotional and physical. I agree to a point; I would still like to reconcile , if possible.I think let her go, see if we can establish something "new".<P>- My plan a is generally very good. Very tough w OM in picture. I am concerned about helping provide for her needs, making it possible to have her needs met by both me and OM.It seems that situation could go on forever.Steve H says the truth will win out, that the OM will finally appear for what he is. That logic appeals to me, but a review of these boards says it doesn't happen that often.<P>2) My dad argues to employ a position of truth. That is,she has done what she has done, to treat her lovingly is to deny the reality of the situation, to deny what's been done ( separation, betrayal, etc.)<P> - Surprisingly, Steve says this is not a "fatal" situation. That living on her own ( she's never done that before) will possibly change her position.<BR> - Finally, my focus now is on me and the kids. How do I recover and thrive, how do I grow from this. Who do I want to be. Exiting stuff. Well - I'm going to go pack some more. I'm on vacation, and when I get my share of the house money a spending spree is in order. Venting does help. God bless us all.<BR> <BR>

That all sounds good. Very good. No, I have only read what the Harleys have written. Read Ed Wheat, Divorce Busting, Gottman, and a few others, but I only had one counseling session at Catholic Social Services, and that was after the divorce, couldn't get it before, she moved too fast for that. Money and transportation said, no more counseling, and that was fine by me. I was able to get some material from Restore Ministries, that is helping a lot.<P>One thing that has become abuntantly clear is that we live in a society where the Taker dominates everything. Its a sad indictment, but true, nonetheless. I have noticed that people use our misery to enable their Takers, and tell us to say/do things that are not in our best interests, and that extends to here sometimes, too. Yes, please do help yourself, but there is an extent beyond which your Taker will require some servicing. It seems to me as if the level of your success is set by how much you can change without enabling your Taker. From what I read, backslides and selfishness cause many of the failures, not being a doormat. Honestly, being a doormat is VERY subjective, most people only recognize you as being a doormat when you appear to act like they do. Curious. Steve's gauge for Plan A is interesting, and encouraging. I felt just that way in Plan A, and in Plan B, things haven't changed too much, except that she seems different now, not sure what to make of it. She definitely cannot handle being around me, and I am being nice to her. Detatched, but nice, very nice. I think she expects/wants/needs me to be mean. I have no idea what is going on with her/him, and that is a good sign for me. I don't know of any people applying Plan A for long, their Giver runs out of gas, and their Taker dominates after that, so that would explain the lack of success. Plan B can be easily confused for being cold, and distant. (On both sides), I think Plan B is tricky, very tricky. Plan A is hard, as you state, especially with the Other complication. Plan A/B require us to step outside normal human interaction, the rules have changed. Everyone outside cannot possibly understand the new dynamic, hence the confusion they display.<BR> In a perfect world, your father would be right, and yes, I agree with him, truth is proper. A position of truth is always honorable, but rarely successful. The goal is not truth until reconciliation starts. You need to get to there first, and the truth will not do that now because she is denying truth. So, you live what he might consider a lie, but the lie is that you allow the withdrawals to occur, meanwhile you are extending credit if necessary to keep her account open. There is no dishonor in what you are doing, in fact there is much honor in it, read the Bible. If you can be wronged, and not get angry, then you are modeling Jesus, as you are commanded to do. Forget about society's demand that you act otherwise, you are serving the very highest purpose in this endeavor, they do not understand, but that is to their detriment, not yours.<P>I cannot guarantee any success for anybody, only God can do that, but you are doing this so that you can be healed, and with the hope that she wil be, too. Then the marriage can, as well. Truth <ahem> is, the people around you don't want that for you. They have much more finality in their hearts/minds, otherwise they would agree with you. They can't, and the reason is simple, she closed her account with all of them by doing this, and they still 'feel' for you. That's all good, etc., but a better understanding of WHY and HOW this happens would lead society down a much different path, I think. We are a society of Takers, that much is abundantly clear, it surprises me when any marriage succeeds, not because of the institution, or men or women, the three have not changed appreciably, but this me-me-me, my needs first, gim'me, gim'me, gim'me stuff coupled with Hollywood and politics leave the roles confused, and us with no tools to help. Society does not shun affairs anymore, my XW conducted hers pretty much in the open in front of my friends (in fact, OM was a friend, go figure.), who denied it in the initial stages (Now who's in denial?). Right after D, he's spending the night when my kids are there. (As if the paper made it right.) We have gotten to this point....D was May 23rd. So, a position of truth is that truth is not a powerful ally when it comes to WAS, they can only see their version of the truth. When that changes, yes truth works like it always did, but to think it can now, or to think it will change things, is very naive...very righteous, but very naive.<P>So what to do? Be bitter? Lash out? Cave in on yourself? Hard to tell, there are many ways to be, some of them involve being on auto pilot. I am personally very wary of my first intended response, and isn't that exactly what most people say...If it were me, I'd...(Sure you would, but this is not you, its me.)?