Don't have much time for details right now, but my main question is if one spouse drinks to the extent that it has effected the relationship badly, and basically over the years I believe it has prevented the relationship from growing... can marriage counseling be beneficial if the drinker refuses to see where the drinking might be a big part of the problem? I attach alot of baggage to my H's drinking, whenever I see him with a drink, even though he has cut back at times, all my fears re-emerge and I expect the worse. Even if we've had a few good days... if he then goes out or drinks alot at home, it kind of erases alot of the progress I felt we had made or were on the verge of making from the few good days. Does my question make sense? My H feels I am trying to control him, that I've changed because now I'm saying more instead of holding it in. I am trying to take control of my life more, but to me my life includes him, so I guess that's why he thinks I'm trying to control him?? He won't go for counseling for himself, says he doesn't need it, but he shuts me out of his life, we can barely have a conversation without it turning into and arguement. We're either in withdrawl or conflict all the time. So at least we're in counseling, but we're not making any progress. I think because he sees everything as someone telling him what to do, and he doesn't want to be told what to do. The counselor even says we need to decide, are we going to work on the marriage or not... she just sees us going around and around too... she gives us good suggestions, I think, but we can't get past the conflict, and I know I can't get past the drinking... too much bad has come out of it over the years... can the counseling work with an active drinker? Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

yy,<P>I don't have an answer to your question, but I would discuss this with Dr. Harley on his radio show. You can call him at 888-332-5169 between 2 and 3 Central time. Before Dr. Harley did marriage counseling, he was involved in counseling people with chemical addictions (including alcohol). He'd be a good source for you.<P>As a bonus, you'd get one of his books out of talking with him. I called the show a couple months ago and it was very easy to get through.

YY - <BR>I feel your pain and know what you mean. I too was married to a man who drank and ruined our relationship over the years. He does not and did not think he had a problem with alcohol. He too, refused counseling and had me convinced it was I who had the problem (with his drinking) not him. When he drank my fears lit up. He was "all hands" with women. He would pass out after several. He acted strange and was difficult. He was ruining our marriage and family. There were nights he didn't come home. On our wedding anniversary - we went to a hotel dancing and had a room for the night. He went to the bathroom and never came back. I went to the room and found him there - in bed with another woman (an old friend), who just happened to show up at the bar. I'll never forget the look on HER face seeing me. He was drunk and I don't even know if he saw me. The next day when SHE brought him home (as I had left) I packed my bags and the 2 babies and we left. Two days later I went back home and kicked him out (why was I leaving MY home??) and filed for divorce. This, after he refused counseling as ... he doesn't have a problem. He claims he doesn't REMEMBER what happened. Maybe he doesn't. But that allows me to jump to my own conclusions as well as having enough of a sour life from his alcohol. <BR>9 years later - he still drinks. He has been thru 2 more divorces and many relationships. He seems depressed with his life as he can't figure out where he goes wrong??? He still admits he has no drinking problem. There is nothing a wife can do or a counselor to help these people. THEY HAVE TO HELP THEMSELVES. Once they admit they have a problem, yes, a counselor can help. But until they help themselves first - there is nothing a counselor can do. My ex still doesn't know he has a problem. Very, very painful for me and our children.

Thanks K, I know there are no easy answers. We have another counseling session in just a little while. This weekend he said he wanted a divorce again, and dissappeared for 36 hours... turns out he spent that time drinking and gambling. I'm about to give up, if I bring up the drinking again, he'll say Im never satisfied... he's been working more on house projects, spent more time with our daughter, but the real important things that I keep trying to say are the big issues to me, doesn't seem to want to work on... attention for me, communication between us, you know just working on our "relationship". Even the house projects he sees as a list of demands from me, but I keep saying no, that I want to work on things too... I can paint!... but he doesn't hear me. So he's doing things, but basically shutting me out, won't even discuss the things he wants done so that we can decide on things together. And the biggest thing I just can't handle is the drinking, I try to "detach" but that's just not a marriage to me, so now I'm the classic nagging you-know-what in his eyes, and all I want is for us to be able to love each other. What a mess, and in the end I'm the bad guy. If I would just keep my mouth shut, he would be happy.<P>Please excuse the pity-party... we'll see how this couseling session goes, maybe I'll try Steve next.<P>Thanks again.

Thanks Cndy, just saw your reply, we must have been typing at the same time. Just got back from the counselor, did not go well, I just totally lost it, cried my eyes out and went on and on about the drinking, this past weekend, how he doesn't hear what I try to say, that he just sees me as trying to control or nag, and I'm not! Everything just came tumbling out, and I just couldn't stop. How pathetic. I don't know what's going to happen, what kills me the most is that there is no good answer as far as my daughter is concerned. Either I suck it up and we stay together and show my daughter a lousy example of "marriage", or we divorce and she becomes a "child of divorce". I can never give her the kind of family life I hoped to. I wish there was a way I could accept the drinking and settle for being less important in his life and find a way to just "live my own life" and not be bothered when he's drunk, and not mind that we don't communicate, and not feel empty without intimacy, and be happy with the infrequent sex when he's drunk enough to want it. I don't think I can even imagine or remember what really "making love" would be like. What a mess, I'm just dumping, I've been bottling up alot inside. I'm sure if my H were posting here it would be a completely different picture that he sees. Maybe some people just can't connect with each other and find that happy medium. We just can't seem to find that middle ground. Sorry all... this place is for dumping right? Maybe I'll feel more constructive tomorrow.

YY:<P>I'm so sorry you have to deal with this problem - and with a child, too. I went thru the same thing (however without the child) for 8 long years. My husband is an alcoholic, and feels that I am very controlling. I put up with it as long as I could, not nagging, reading my Alanon literature, doing all the housework myself, etc., with absolutely no support from him. He used all the same excuses about me controlling him to avoid the real issue. He tried to make our problems all my fault, which is very manipulative and VERY TYPICAL of alcoholics. It is not about you at all.<P>We tried counseling and found it to be a disaster also. It actually helped me a bit, but after 3 sessions, my husband refused to return - he felt he was being picked on, he didn't want to hear what the counselor had to say (he needed to stop drinking). She said, and I have read in other places, that the alcoholism needs to be addressed before the marital problems can be looked at. <P>Just this last summer I started pressuring my husband to quit, attend counseling, etc., because I feel the same as you about detachment - by detaching, I'm settling for less love and respect than I want and deserve. This made him practically flip - he started having an affair with someone 17 years younger, which I found out about around Christmas. We are currently divorcing.<P>I'm sorry to paint an ugly picture for you, but life with an alcoholic is not pretty. You do have your daughter to consider. Perhaps you should attend some Alanon meetings to see things from another perspective. Also, there is another web site, similar to this, www.alcoholismhelp.com, which was very helpful for me. Good luck!<P>Bailey

yy,<P>Last summer, my husband started drinking with his old high school buddies. These are the same ones that he ran with when we were first married. It caused us to eventually separate. We got back together, and things were fine for many years, until he returned to his drinking. When I would question how much he was drinking and spending time from home, he would get upset. We built a new home in Oct. 98, and I felt we were on our way to living the dream we both wanted. Our children are adults with their own families. It was just us. He started staying out later, and sometimes he wouldn't come home at all. Then it was 1 day, then 2, etc. I was told in early Feb. that he was having and affair. I contacted the OW and she denied it. He also denied everything. On Feb. 12, I caught them together. On March 5, he moved out to his own apartment. I hear that she is living with him there, but he denies it. I having seen him in over 4 weeks, nor talked to him in 2 weeks. I am left with a home I am struggling to pay, utilities, etc. He can't spare any money because he now has to keep his own place. He said if I just would've left him alone in the other end of the house,(when I caught him w/OW, I moved him to guess bedroom) things would've been fine. He would only come home to change clothes, shower,etc. I was devastated because he left with no explanation other than he no longer has those feelings for me.<P>I also attend Alanon meetings weekly and they are helping me tremendously. I am also seeing a therapist. I don't know how long I will be here for him, if and when he decides he wants to get help. Alcoholics have to hit the bottom before they understand what they did. My therapist said that some never hit, they're called functional alcoholics.<P>The last thing my husband said to me 4 weeks ago was that he loved me. He has refused to see our children or our grandchildren. He has thrown away everything for the bottle. I have been told that the apartment, OW, behavior,etc. are the result of the alcoholism. I don't know. I will do what I need to do to ease my conscience about our marriage, but when I know I've done all I can do, I'll move on.<P>The best thing you can do is use this time for yourself, and become the best you can be, for you and no one else.

I, too, am living a life of hell with an alcoholic husband. My husband has been a mean, hateful, abusive drunk for all but 5 of our 17 years together. He gets worse everyday, and like yours, he says every problem in our marriage is my fault. I don't believe him anymore, but did for years. I walked on eggshells trying not to set him off for a long time, but not anymore. It is not fair to you to not be able to tell him how you feel and how his drinking affects you. As soon as my youngest child is grown, I will divorce my husband, as long as I get to keep the house. I loved him with all my heart, and I know that he can be a good husband and father, because he was during those 5 years he didn't drink. I know exactly how you feel. . . I'm feeling the same way every day. I refuse to give up my home or allow him to take my kids. He says if he leaves, he's taking them. So that's why I'm still with him. I have prayed and prayed and prayed that God work in his life and take the hurt away. But nothing has changed. My H just keeps drinking more, staying out later, and being meaner, more hateful and just a plain jerk. I do all the household chores, mowing, cleaning, taking care of animals, etc; he does nothing but go to work and drink, drink, drink with his buddies. Dinner is always well over and cold by the time he manages to show up slobbering drunk. It amazes me that he has not gotten a DWI yet. Why God is protecting him and not me I will never understand. I've always tried to be a perfect wife, mother, employee, citizen, etc, so why this had to happen to me I guess I will never understand. I hope that your husband wakes up before its too late, but from the sounds of the other posts, they never will. Alcoholics could care less about anyone else, all they care about is getting drunk. My husband had even started not eating on weekends so he can get drunk faster. I'm afraid that if your husband is anything like mine, you're fighting a losing battle and he's just going to get worse. Their first love is the bottle. Mine will tell you he loves to drink, and he likes the way he feels when he's drunk. I guess if I was younger I'd divorce him now, but its really too late for me. <P>I wish I could find a way to make you feel better. I know how much it hurts, and nothing anyone says or does will make the hurt stop. Maybe if you keep going to counseling it will help you feel better about your situation. The last time I went the counselor basically told me it wouldn't do much good if my H kept refusing to go (he kept saying there's nothing wrong with him - I'm the one with the problem, blah, blah, blah), so I haven't ever gone back. <P>Sorry to sound so bleak, but it doesn't look like there's any future in my marriage. <BR>Keep your chin up and remember it is DEFINITELY not your fault. Best of luck to you.