My ex-wife and I have been getting into arguments on issues with our 4.5yo daughter. I couldn't take it anymore and talked to Steve Harley who pointed out that I was often being disrespectful of her and telling her how she felt, and telling her how she should feel. Made sense. Since then, things have been better, but we also haven't had to discuss any important issues. Until today.<P>My ex-wife signed her up for a summer camp that involves going on a bus for a field trip to these different places every day. She usually cries when left with people she doesn't know, but we were hoping she'd get used to it (like she's gotten used to her current preschool) over time. I agreed to it. It starts Monday.<P>Then Friday I wondered what we were doing. Not only does she cry, she sometimes falls asleep when I pick her up from preschool, and there's no field trip at all. I feel she'll be miserable and then she'll be even more tired because there'll be a 1/2 hour trip to the bus, and the bus trips are at least 1/2 hour. I felt she should go to her current preschool's summer program where she'll spend many days in her familiar room, they'll take them to play in a swimming pool every couple of days, and there are occasional local field trips. Several of her friends and a teacher she knows will be there. I couldn't reach my ex on the phone Friday, so I emailed her telling her each point of why I felt she should stay in her preschool for the summer. She emailed back saying just try it for a week, and if it doesn't work, we'll switch back. We had already agreed this was what we'll do before.<P>Today when my ex dropped off our daughter, I asked her if she still felt that way, and I proposed starting at her current preschool, and doing the one my ex likes at the end of summer instead of the beginning. My ex got angry and started yelling at me saying that we had already decided this. I agreed we had already decided, but I had changed my mind because of issues I hadn't thought of before, so we should talk about it. I'm trying to be careful not to tell my ex how she feels, but I did ask her to stop yelling in front of our daughter (our daughter was even covering her ears). My ex yelled that she's not yelling, and that after so many years I should realize this is the way she talks. Hmm. News to me (I didn't say that).<P>She also yelled at me about how I manipulated her, which is true, but not relevant to this discussion. She said how she can't stand me, and I replied that I already made it clear how I resent her for breaking our family without even trying to keep it together. She replied, "I'm with someone who thinks I'm wonderful!" Should I applaud (I didn't say that either)?<P>Am I still nuts? I don't see what I did to trigger her yelling. I did say two things that I can understand she didn't like. After she started yelling, I said, "We need to behave like adults." I can understand not liking to hear that, but I felt it was unarguable that she was yelling. Of course, she even argued against that. The other thing she didn't like was when she said she doesn't want to talk about it, I said, "We need to talk about it; this is our daughter." She yelled that this makes her feel that I feel she doesn't care about our daughter. Yes, I very much understand that, but summer program starts Monday. We really need to talk about it!<P>I really can't take this any more. The only time she doesn't yell on issues with our daughter is when I agree completely with her. I can't just agree with everything. She's been pretty fair and I am with our daughter a little bit more than she is, though once she buys a house, she's planning on changing that, which I know I'm going to get another yelling session once I disagree with that.<P>Any suggestions? Mostly, I'm wondering what I'm doing wrong. I was reading Suze Orman's book about respecting money, and she talked about divorce. She mentioned that it's actually much easier to go through a spouse dying than a divorce. It's so true.

<P><BR>________________________________________________________<BR>She also yelled at me about how I manipulated her, which is true, but not relevant to this discussion. <BR>_______________________________________________________<P>Have you ever had anyone manipulate you??? YES IT IS RELEVANT!!! If this is how you talk to her..and treat her..it's very relevant..When your manipulated..You are made to feel as if YOUR opinions don't matter..and thats how I'm sure she feels..that YOU don't care about how she feels only what you feel and think are important..well...get a life buddy...her opinion does matter..especially if it's something that you already agreed to..<P>Personally, I think it would be good for your daughter..it will help her to grow and learn to be around other kids..<BR>and learn how to handle different situations..something she will need in school..and in adult life..she will also need to learn to express her opinion on things...<P>I guess I should ask..how do you want your daughter to be treated by men..do you want a man to treat your daughter the way you treat your wife??? How would you feel if she were made to feel as if her husband didn't respect her thoughts and opinions?? Would you want some man to treat your sister or mother that way??? like what they feel think isn't important??<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ThornedRose:<B><BR>Have you ever had anyone manipulate you??? YES IT IS RELEVANT!!! If this is how you talk to her..and treat her..it's very relevant..When your manipulated..You are made to feel as if YOUR opinions don't matter..and thats how I'm sure she feels..that YOU don't care about how she feels only what you feel and think are important..well...get a life buddy...her opinion does matter..especially if it's something that you already agreed to..</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>After I posted, I realized that I shouldn't say "not relevant." It was really an out-of-the blue comment, and she had said it often before and I agree with it. Maybe I should have said, "Not germaine." On your last sentence, I did agree to it, but I thought of new issues I hadn't thought of before, and that's why I wanted to discuss. If my ex had thought of new issues after we had agreed to something, I sure don't want her to keep quiet about it! I want to know!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Personally, I think it would be good for your daughter..it will help her to grow and learn to be around other kids..<BR>and learn how to handle different situations..something she will need in school..and in adult life..she will also need to learn to express her opinion on things...</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is a difficult one. We enrolled her in things like ice skating, ballet, gymnastics. For each of these, she usually started OK, then cried hysterically after a while. My ex and I both agree that it doesn't make sense to keep her enrolled in these classes that she cries at, (teachers normally keep her out if she's crying anyway). She's only 4.5yo and has plenty of time. If she was 8 and this happened, that's a different issue.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>[B}I guess I should ask..how do you want your daughter to be treated by men..do you want a man to treat your daughter the way you treat your wife??? How would you feel if she were made to feel as if her husband didn't respect her thoughts and opinions?? Would you want some man to treat your sister or mother that way??? like what they feel think isn't important??[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Nope, absolutely not. I don't feel I'm doing that now, though. The reason I wanted the discussion today was not to convince her of anything, but to hear her arguments in favor of going to the more aggressive summer program. I listed my arguments against it, now lets her hers in favor (or against my idea). Her argument today is that she thinks it'll be fun. My email mentioned that I think it'll be fun once she's 6. For now, our daughter just loves being with us and her friends, or us and strange kids her age. She doesn't like being left with strange people. At 4.5yo, I don't see that as a real problem.<BR>

I am shocked to hear that any "field-trip-of-the-day" summer camps actually accept 4 year old kids. I think it would be an absolutely horrible experience for a child who doesn't cope well with change or unpredictability (I have raised 5 of those, out of 6). Actually I think it would be a very stressful experience for almost any 4 year old, and possibly unsafe. I sure wouldn't send my 5 year old off on field trips with people she doesn't know well, or who don't know her. What if she gets lost - would they even be able to describe her? Does the bus have car seats for each child? There are so many issues here.

As I was re-reading your post..I caught something I didn't catch at 3:00 this morning..the fact that they will be taking field trips "every day"...that may be a bit much for a 4 yr old..<P>but, do what you'd agreed to at first...give it a try for the first week..and see how she does...if she's crying all the time and if she's really stressed at the end of the day..contrary to popular beief..kids don't need to be "doing things" ALL the time..they need down time also..time to relax and just be kids..time to play alone..just as adults do..and to many activities can really stress a person out..<P>My son was in Kindergarden last year and cried..that he had to be away from mom...my 9 yr old cries and gets sick when she's away from mom for extended periods..even staying w/ her dad for a weekend...and my twelve year old calls me all the time...because she misses me..but I tell her it's okay...I'm okay...and she doesn't need to worry...I know that they don't know their dad very well..and Mom has ALWAYS been there..they are so afraid that something will happen to me when they are away from me...they didn't like it when I went back to school..and they didn't like it when I went back to school...because they didn't know where I was...so when I was in school...I'd taken them to my classes one day after school and showed them where I was when they were in school...and now that I am working..I'd taken them to my job one day so that they know where I am during the day...and they are fine with that...I don't have the problems during the day when they are at school anymore because they know....but when they are at their dad's house..they wonder where I am...what I am doing..who I am with...<P>But I know that has to do with abandonment issues..they don't trust their dad to be around..he's always been gone..<BR>he'd come home one weekend a month..and they wouldn't see him again for another month..he'd be home for two days and be gone again..and the fact that he has left them with strangers before when the nine yr old was 3, her and her sister were playing at a new neighbors house..they were out front..I'd been grocery shopping..and he was home w/ the kids..he drove past them..asked the little girl who lived in the house..she was 5 if the kids could stay there and play...he didn't talk to the parents...he just left and went to get his beer..my kids came home..and nobody was here..they were terrified..I came home to find them walking down the street in tears holding on to the other little girls mom's hand..looking for mommy...I was livid..I was mortified..and that wasn't the only time thats happened over the years..that he'd just leave them while I was gone..most recently that I know of was New Years Weekend..he'd taken the kids to his mom's for the weekend..and I'd gone out of town to visit friends..(we've been seperated since Sept) he brought them here to the house and left them..not knowing when I'd be home..my flight had been changed because of weather conditions..so I was flying in later than I had intended..I'd called to let them know..but he just left them here alone..and he went home..told them to call him if I wasn't home soon...he'd brought them home around 4 ish...and I didn't get in till about 9..so they were scared..and reasonably so..so I understand where their fear comes from..<P>Maybe you can give your daughter a picture of you and her mom to carry with her so that when she's missing you guys she can look at it..and let her know where you'll be so that she won't be so afraid..I know for my kids..it gave them a secure feeling that they knew "where" I'd be when they were at school..they knew that I wasn't just going to be gone..and not come home..or not come to get them..kids do have that fear that their parents are going to "forget" to come get them...<P>one way to help them through that is to show them a clock and tell them..when the clock is here..I'll be back to pick you up...and then be there to pick them up at that time..that helps build that trust..and also let them know that if they want to call you..they can..and leave them a number to reach you at..(and yes...4 yr olds can learn phone <BR>numbers) and let the teacher or adult in charge know that if she wants to call you..she can..and not to tell her she can't..because that will only make her even more scared..<BR>and make her resent the teacher..and not want to go back..it's a matter of teaching her to trust that you won't forget about her..<BR>

I have to agree with Nellie.<P>I was surprised to even hear of a camp taking young ones on such long field trips. Personally as a parent I would worry about such a young child out on field trips so much. At this young age they need more structure and more routine.<BR>Especially when she is going through the adjustments of the loss of her family.<P>I thought you had some valid reasons to bring this up with you wife and her lack of respect for your concerns was clear. I don't know the whole story but her cries of manipulation in this situation ring hollow to me. I got more of a feeling that your wife thinks that she should make all decisions and not have them questioned. Her tunnel vision is on. <P>Watch the situation with your D closely. If she must go to the other day camp go speak with the people running it and tell them of your concerns. Ask what the student supervisor ratio is for the kids. Make sure that your D will not get lost in the shuffle. Talk to your D everyday about her day. Listen to what she is saying but don't influence her response. It may work out better than you think. But at least you are thinking of your D. <P>Take Care.<BR>

Follow-up: The first day of the summer camp is over. As planned, my ex stayed with my daughter the whole day. The plan was that she would bring D to my house in the evening so that I could take her to today's summer camp. It was getting late, so I called X. She said she's on the way over. She sounded upset. I say, "OK, I just wasn't sure if I misunderstood."<P>They came, and D had puffy eyes. X was visibly upset and said the day was a disaster. D cried most of the day even with X there. As we talked, D mentioned she wanted a snack. I said no, it's time for bed after X and I were done talking. D said she hadn't had dinner. I looked at X and said, "Really?" X said, "Yes you did. Are you lying?" D started crying. X and I both told her to go to her room and rest, and that I'll be there once we're done talking. D very, very rarely lies, and I was surprised she even initiated this lie.<P>X said that if I want to go back to her old preschool, I could, but I might want to try one more day so I could at least see the program, and I agreed. Day 2 is at a park again, but Day 3 is at a museum. I mentioned that to X and said, "That'll be a complete disaster." X said, "Yes. I'm going to try to get my money back. Take her to her old preschool Wednesday."<P>I have to give X credit. Telling me that she wanted D to be at her old preschool couldn't have been easy. What's even more amazing is that during the whole discussion, I didn't say anything stupid. When X left, we were in complete agreement about everything.<P>Thanks for all the help and support, you guys!

Arggh. I typed up this long response yesterday and my system went completely blank. I don't feel like typing it again.<P>One quick note. Children are almost always hungry and at that age their tummies don't quite accept the average grown-up's three meals a day schedule. She might really have been hungry or in her four year old mind, she might have felt that her day was so trying that she deserved a break in the form of a snack. Probably had nothing to do with lying. Physically your D needed something and may not know how to express it. Example = she needs a hug but asks for a toy or food instead. Not always true but at this stage they're just learning how to lie and haven't become experts at it yet.<BR>

Thought I'd also mention the conversation D and I had after X left. D was still heaving with sobs. "Tough day?" "yeah *sob*"<P>"Were you scared, or lonely?"<P>"I was scared. Daddy, all the kids there are bigger than me."<P>I said, "Mommy said they put you with a new friend who's almost the same size as you."<P>"She's five."<P>Now, I don't think this is really the problem. Some of her best friends are five, and she has played well with 1st graders at her school! But it's obvious she doesn't like being with kids she doesn't know at a place she doesn't know with teachers she doesn't know. Change one of these things, she's fine. Change her whole world? Well, she's 4 1/2. We've already broken her home. I don't want to break anything else.