I've been thinking alot about my future lately.<P>As many of you know, I'm the betrayed spouse, recently divorced.<P>I'm starting to get a very negative view of women in general as far as marriage is concerned. As I am a man, I think logically. This is not just my heart speaking.<P>1. Women are twice as likely to file for divorce than men.<BR>2. Men are generally more happy in marriage than women. (women find fault in the marriage faster than the men)<BR>3. Women are typically awarded custody of children.<BR>4. Half of all first marriages fail. The numbers only get worse from there.<BR>5. Adultery affects the majority of all marriages. (60% I think)<BR>6. There was no way in the world I could have expected my wife to have an affair.<BR>7. Men typically try harder to salvage a marriage than women.<BR>8. Women tend to be manipulative whereas men tend to be in your face if something is wrong. Women only imply if something is wrong rather than coming right out and saying it. Bad communication.<P>From my perspective, a man is a fool to marry a woman and have children with her. If she is unhappy, she will have an affair and/or file for divorce and most likely take the kids. Women do not THINK about what they are doing. I nearly puked every time my XW said that her mother told her to follow her heart. (go on feelings) Granted, my XW was probably lying about everything surrounding the divorce.<P>Women want the Cinderella wedding, the beautiful house with the picket fence, and children; the perfect family. They seem to view marriage as this wonderful thing that will make them happy. They want the fairytale and a man to provide it. When reality sets in; bills, sick kids, jobs, everyday life, etc. etc. and the fantasy is gone, they are usually the first ones to run. Screw that "horrible" man that couldn't sustain my fairytale. They do not take any responsibilty for the damage they cause.<P>In the aftermath, the men are typically left without the house, without the kids, having to pay a lot of child support, and stuck with a lot of bills. Only a sucker would marry a woman and have children with her. A black widow spider comes to mind.<P>I don't think I'm missing anything here.<P>Luckily, I got my daughter and the XW pays child support. She only pays enough to cover half of the shared expenses and she still complains about that. I am not a vindictive like so many women.<P>There are no good women out there from what I can see. There are only needy women who will sucker you in and leave you if they don't get what they need. They are unable to take care of themselves. They are immature.<P>I'm so happy I only have one child to raise now. My daughter is far better behaved than my lying, cheating XW.<P>There must be a woman out there who is not psycho, a woman with her head firmly mounted on her shoulders, a woman who can take care of herself just fine, a woman that's not looking for a man to make her happy, a woman who is happy just being herself and by herself.<P>So, I wait. The world is screwed up.<P>Kevin<P><BR>

I actually had to print out your post in order to respond. Your current perspective is clouding your so-called logical thinking approach. Realize that you are feeling a much broader and deeper range of emotions now, and quit trying to rationalize life. I say this because I do it, too, except that I have four sons to keep me 'honest' in this respect. They had to do this mere hours ago, so I know what I am talking about here from direct experience.<BR>Item by item:<BR>1. There are myriad resons for this. What you are expressing, I refer to as the 'Oprah' effect, but not because I don't like Oprah, or what she does. I do. A lot. It is, rather, the misguided use of making major changes in your life by blaming your lot on others. This is What I think you mean, but MEN do it, too. The real numbers are probably much different. Society at large frowns on actual culpability for our actions, that can of worms is best left to its own thread! In short, women do not file twice as often due only to their nature, but, due to a wide range of reasons.<BR>2. WHAT? Are you serious? Happy in marriage? Do you get it, or not? Men are able to ignore their problems better, perhaps, but I'd say that we are equally happy, or miserable. Do you believe that YOU were TOTALLY HAPPY in your marriage? I wasn't, and my situation is A LOT like yours, so maybe we had a better level of denial than our wives did...what do you think?<BR>3. That, again, was the 'proper thing' in the past, but men have an equal right to them, and if they don't get at least 50/50, then they are either bums, or did not go about it properly to ensure that they got what they wanted, and deserved. Thruth is, a lot of divorced men I know either didn't want, or don't deserve 50/50 custody. That is your reason for that. It has nothing to do with women at all. I have 50/50, and the house they are growing up in, and I did it no-fault because my wife found out that that is what THEY WANTED. (Bonus for me!)<BR>4. Hey, people don't understand committment these days, what can I say? 50% do! That is encouraging to me.<BR>5. Actually, I've seen higher numbers. It's a shame, but that is why people like the Harleys do what they do, and why MEN ESPECIALLY should teach their children that marriage counseling is a LEGITIMATE MEDICAL/PSYCHOLOGICAL marital diagnostic and repair tool. If I'd have gone 10 years ago when my wife asked, I'd still be HAPPLIY MARRIED. So would she. (Conjecture, honestly...but allow me this one, please.)<BR>6. If you are in denial about how unhappy she was, I can see that. Open your eyes, friend. My wife is (usually) a near saint. I'm not kidding. Now, I'm wondering what the depths of her irresponsibility, and selfishness are. I've not seen either yet, and its really hard to watch happen from that perspective, too.<BR>7. Not true. Actually, the opposite is. Reread your statistics, you couldn't be more wrong. Men go to much greater extremes, and use different methods, but...no, we don't try hatder.<BR>8. The word manipulative itself is a reaction. The Bible tells us BOTH to let our mates influence us, and that is a basic human need of VALIDATION. Plus, if it HELPS you, you are better off, aren't you? Women don't imply, I think they try to lead you right up to THEM saying it, and YOU are supposed to. Trouble is, we don't, or we act defensively. There is a pattern to your negative interactions with your ex, you have 50% of the responsibility, and 100% of the ability for changing that. 'In your face' just means that we try to intimidate people into submission when we can't convince them otherwise.<P>A man is a fool to do that. You are absolutely right. He is a fool from the selfish man's point of view. What do you want from your life? All I ever TRULY wanted from mine was to have a loving family, and do one thing that would help mankind in some small way. Honestly, friend what point do men and women have on this planet if not just that? About the 'follow your heart'. Read 'Love Must Be Tough' by Dr. James Dobson. 'Being at peace', 'following your heart', and all of those are used to assuage GUILT, whether they are true, or not. Don't harp on those things. There are four things that happen like that, read the book, and get the other three...you'll cry your eyes out, but you will feel better afterward, I guarantee it. You will be stronger, and you WILL UNDERSTAND the real reason that you are where you are now.<BR>I feel just as bad as you...really, I do, but c'mon, don't go totally sour on this whole marriage thing. The 50% that survive have got to be really wonderful.<BR>Don't like women, huh? What will your daughter be when SHE grows up?<BR>My marriage was rocky at times, and sometimes I HATED IT, but I am glad I did it. I still love my ex-wife enormously DESPITE ALL OF IT, and I would welcome an opportunity to reconcile with her in minute. I'm not asking you to feel that way...I'm asking you to think logically, like you claim to. If your marriage was bad solely on account of your ex's nature, then DON'T MARRY HER NEXT TIME, okay? Marry someone else. Or don't, but don't blame the institution, or the gender. Both are generalizations, and your premises are faulty. Your conclusion is simply WRONG.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>8. Women tend to be manipulative whereas men tend to be in your face if something is wrong. Women only imply if something is wrong rather than coming right out and saying it. Bad communication.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I couldn't disagree more. My H NEVER said a word about anything being wrong. He admitted after he left that he purposely tried to hide his feelings. For almost a quarter of a century I TRIED to get him to open up. If he seemed unhappy, I asked what was wrong, and he consistently lied and said that nothing was wrong, or that he wasn't feeling well. <P>It is FAR easier for a man to find a "better deal," and leave his wife and family, especially in middle age. If he is rich, there are many young women available; if he is not, he will have to settle for someone his age but richer. <P>Once men leave they have almost no responsibility for the children. The non-custodial parent is not required to provide for the children; he or she only has to provide an amount of financial support that he or she can "reasonably" affford, whereas the normal custodial parent obviously would do whatever was necessary to make sure their kids were fed. <P>The real issue is that the primary parent, whoever that is, is the one who gets shafted. But I agree that it is completely insane to get married - more so for women, who at least have the advantage that they don't need a man in order to have a biological child. <P>I will love my H until my dying day, but there is not a moment of the day when I do not regret ever marrying. As I have said far too many times before, you can't trust ANYONE. There is far too high a probability that your spouse, no matter how wonderful, loving, or how good a parent, will turn into an alien overnight.

Kevin,<BR>Wow, I'm not sure but we may have both married long lost twin sisters. OK since everyone else is bashing your theories, I'm here to tell you I'm on your side. <BR>While I do agree that there are many females out there with the cinderella complex, I too am hopeful there are a few non Prozac driven happy ones out there with a good head on their shoulders. <BR>I know what you mean too about no responsibility, my XW's mom was similar, telling the X to be happy i.e. run from reality, don't work on your marriage. In other words find someone else that she could manipulate. I said screw that and filed. I too saw serious evidence of an affair, more so my XW just flat out lied to me about things. So sounds similar, my XW had problems from her past that crept into our relationship. <BR>Let me tell you this much, work on you and your relationship with your daughter, keep it strong, focus your energy not on the blame here, but turn the anger into energy, focus it on being a better person yourself. On your future, your job, whatever. Drop the thoughts of the X, just don't allow the past to control your future.<BR>My theory is this: I think some of us have to go thru a pothole like this in life to grow, yes I know that sucks. To be honest I feel so much more perceptive with the women I see in my life now. I pick up on the red flags much sooner, and when I see too many I walk. I'm not unwilling to commit to a woman, I just know this time I'm going to do it a lot differently. In time you will too.

F1H0, <P>Although its difficult to disagree with your statements on the surface, I find them after thinking of them rather superficial. <P>You seem to be looking at the world with the unemotional "LOGIC" in order to protect yourself. There was a time in my life when I felt exactly the same as you do with this post. The problem with your logic is that it "IS LOGIC". Look deeper into it than the numbers. People are not logical and they are very emotional and to tag them, be it Male or Female, only broadens the canyon that must be traveled. <P>Let it go F1H0, cross the canyon, be at peace with yourself. <P>Besides, they:<BR>1.) Smell so da*#ed good.<BR>2.) Have a funny/cute look in their eye when they have had just a little bit to much to drink.<BR>3.) Have a memory that a computer would love. Ie. Can remember phone numbers from years ago.<BR>4.) Love to be treated like a lady.<BR>5.) Love to be talked to/with.<BR>6.) Can spot a bad attitude from across the parking lot.<BR>7.) Love to be watched. <P>With out a doubt women they are very complex and I tend to think that logic isn't the correct tool when trying to figure them out or get over them. It only puts up defensive barriers. <P>Did I mention they smell good?<P>OK let the flames begin!!<P>TEX!<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by AgoodManInTexas (edited June 18, 2001).]

Ok, I hope that you were just venting because alot of what you wrote cannot be about all women. You made a lot of generalizations.<P>(1) Yes, I filed for divorce. <B>BUT</B> only because my ex wouldn't help out financially. He refused to pay child support and he legally doesn't have to unless we've filed for divorce.<P>(2) I may have found fault (believe me, there were a lot of problems!) but I stayed thru 10 years of living hell! Even after he left, I wanted him to be home. It didn't matter that I was getting my a$$ kicked on a regular basis.<P>(7) Not sure if that's true or not. But I see it both ways here. I know men AND women who have both tried hard to save their marriages.<P>(8) I don't completely agree with this. My ex was not a communicator at all. When he got angry, I knew it because I got screamed at or hit. And his idea of talking about things was getting mad and arguing. Nothing was ever civil or productive.<P>I was very unhappy thru most of my marriage. But I stayed because I didn't want my children to go thru all of this. He was the one who left me <B>AND</B> his sons and he's never looked back. Do I bother him? Nope. He lives 10 minutes from me and the boys and he saw them for a total of maybe 20 hours last year. He hasn't seen them at all this year. He's only talked to them 3 times since January. <BR>Was I a fool to marry him? Maybe. But I have my sons, I'm working my first job ever and I've been promoted 2 times in the past year. <B>AND</B> I'm content.<P>Mitzi <P>Hey TEX!!<P>Good way to describe women! <P><p>[This message has been edited by Mitzi (edited June 18, 2001).]

Whoa there Kevin!<P>I do know how you feel but please don't generalize all women. <BR>1) I did file for divorce but only after my X had 2 affairs and I just couldn't take it anymore. !st affair was a very complicated internet affair that was better than somthing from Jerry Springer. I stuck by him though like a loving spouse should. He lied to me many times, made up many cruel lies about me to OW1 but yet I stared with him.<P>2)I was very happy with my life and my marriage. He was the one who felt unsettled.<P>3) I have three teenage children who chose to live with whom they wanted and they chose me. He pays child support but we have joint legal custody.<P>4)Yes, I agree that half of all marriages fail but life can be pretty dull if you don't take chances. I think we are all foolish if we beleive in happily ever after.<P>5)agree, I live in a small town and we have had a huge rash in adultery lately both men and women.<P>6)Same here. I never even considered the fact that my H would have done to me what he did. We were always thought of as the perfect couple.<P>7)I totally disagree with that! I think it depends on the situation. I tried as hard as I could to save my marriage!!!!!!!!!!<P>8)My X is a master manipulater and I am a tell it like it is kind of person. As are most of my friends. <P>I kind of took offense at some of what you are saying here. I am a good person and I was a good wife. I spoiled my X rotten. It was my job that hurt our marriage as we both worked opposite shifts. Of course in his eyes it was all my fault even though I begged him to let me work the day shift but he always said we couldn't afford it. X liked to have alot of toys and I made good money working the evening shift. But then he got lonely and went looking. After the 1 st affair and we reconciled I went to dayshift. It didn't get me anywhere because then I didn't make enough money and he had a hard time paying for the toys. So he left me for a wealthy woman. <P>I am now 36, divorced, working two jobs. He left me bankrupt. OW paid all of his half of all of the debt HE accumilated and I was stuck paying the other half alone. I had to move from our home because I couldn't pay the housepayment., So he and OW moved in with her kids while me and my kids live in a rented house. I am trying to sell my 98 car because I can't afford it and send my daughter to collage at the same time. My X thinks his 400.00 a month child support should help her with collage. He pays 400.00 a month for three teenage kids. Hell, that doesn't even buy groceries. I am buying a 89 ford pickup from my landlord and praying it will last awhile. <P>So lets see. He totally screwed me over big time. He remarried OW and they have since bought 2 brand new vehicles, remodled the house ect. While I am struggling working 2 jobs just to make end meet. <P>I was a good wife and he admits that, it was just that his life wasn't exciting enough for him. <P>So before you go passing judgment on all women take note that there are alot of really ****ty men out there. <BR>But I am not giving up on the male race. I know alot of good men.<P>JIll

One more thing, I am a survivor. I have done very well for myself the past months. I have moved on and am having fun with my life. I love my kids and we are having a great time together. I pay my bills every month, try to save some ect. <BR>I don't mind being single in fact I like it. For the first time in my adult life I am independant. <P>There are alot of great Women on this sight. Women who had to sacrifice alot of self respect ect to try to save their marriages.

All I have to say is way to go Tex.<P>I do believe thou that Kevin is right to an extent. Yes I am a women. My situation was not an affair thou, well he had an affair with beer daily. But that is not the point here.<P>Most of all I think men and women alike need to be more open about their feelings. I know alot of men that are not and I also know women that are not.<P>Therefore I believe Kevin is right but it also applies to men. Sorry sweetie. This just goes to show you Kevin you care what women think and I admire that.<P>Wishing us all well<BR>.......JJ.........

<BR>I am a woman and am not in the least offended by what you said, though I maybe should be. To an extent, I agree with each item you said. I think everyone else has made very good points. The main thing I think that was touched on is the fairy tale concept that many women cling to. One of my students ( a very wise high school student!) called it the Disney complex. He says that every woman in a Disney movie is unfulfilled until she meets her Prince. Actually, if you look at it, you do see Sleeping Beauty prancing around the forest in an almost drunken state looking under rocks for a good man. That is sickening. The issue is that women are more emotion driven and men are pragmatic. It is easier to fulfill someone practically (clothes, home, security, retirement, fixing things) than it is to fulfill someone emotionally. Frankly I think men’s emotional needs are easier to meet. At least simpler. Let’s face it: the top needs listed for men by the Harley’s (and yes, this is a generalization made based on research and experience) are sex, attractivness of spouse, domestic support, companionship, and I don’t remember the other one. Those are pretty basic and low on Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs if you look at it that way. So I can see how you can be soured, confused, and tired.<P>Maybe I have become a cynic too in a way. I don’t doubt that there are honorable, good men out there. In fact, seeing the devotion of so many here has convinced me of that. What I have lost faith in is the institution itself. I don’t know when or where it happened, but I have become to wonder if human beings are capable in the least to be monogamous, faithful, and with the same human for the rest of his/her life. It becomes a result not of an individual’s faults (i.e., the woman or man) but that of an intagible chemistry, dynamic that is highly unnatural for such imperfect creatures. I have toyed with the idea that as imperfect creatures we need the perfection of God to succeed, but at the risk of sounding like a heretic, I doubt even that. <P>So where does that leave me? Questioning things that seemed like absolutes to me too only two years ago before all of this started. As far as your points:<P>1) I agree. Harleys have a great article called “Why Women Leave Men.” I am sure you have read it.<BR>2) This one goes to the emotional need thing. Men (I think) are easier to satisfy. Or at least better at not revealing when they are. But there have also been studies done to indicate that men generally are happier in their marriages. Women can be more demanding. <BR>3) Yeah, but it is changing. That is just ignorance and something about a maternal bond. I can’t relate to it because I have no kids. I can only imagine the frustration.<BR>4) Sigh…. why has it changed over the past 50 years? Marriage is no longer viewed as a practical, family tie. It is over romanticized in my view. There is so much beauty beyond the fairy tale.<BR>5) Look at the reasons for the affairs…<BR>6) I have nothing to say on this one. Only I can say the same about my ex. But I don’t indict men because of it.<BR>7) Just different methods…. practical fixing and repair is sometimes easier to notice than emotional repair. Men notice the big picture. Women the details. I read something very poignant once: “Women think the relationship is good when they can talk about it; ,men think it is good when they don’t have to.” <BR>8) I agree with the first part about manipulation. I disagree with the last part. Just different forms of communication. Though I have to admit, I trust men more than I do women. Women to me seem sneaky, and I am a woman!! Yes, I know: a generalization, but it had to originate somewhere. Men manipulate too, differently and for different ends. <P>Yes, I a woman. Yes, I think there are major flaws with both sexes, and that is why I wonder if marriage is not an unnatural state or if it is truly possible except in rare, lucky cases. (Really, I know that one day I will hit reality and realize the idiocy of this statement, so there is no need to explain it to me now. I just feel like doubting whether the sky is blue or not today.) <P>If you look at enough posts and meet enough women around you, you will recognize plenty of devoted, honorable, and self assured women who do not subscribe to the Disney idealogy. It is just hard to see the road when your windshield is dirty.<P>

Ok i was lurking in the other areas and came across this post, AND so need to put in my 2 cents!!!<BR> your first point, welli am the BS in this marriage and I am not filing for divorce.<BR> #2 I was totally happy in my marriage, he could do no wrong, but then again I AM NOT THE ONE THAT STAYED!<BR> #3, custody is anon issue, i am om one of the rare breeds that WOuLD never allow my childrren to suffer by taking them away from their father, whom they love with all their hearts.<BR> #4 If the marriage faisl it is due to TWO people not one, that is my opinion<BR> #5 and # 6 i actually agree with you about.<BR> #7 In your situation i suppose that is how it is , in my marriage WE ARE both working hard to fix it equally. ANd if you have not read any of the majority of the posts in here they are from WOMEN, wanting nothing more that to save it and it is the MAN that is pulling away. ( were did you get the stats for that little nugget of BS BTW??)<BR> #* and this is my fav. I am not a manipulative woman , I am the in your face rad me like a book type, My H is the quieter hard to get it out of him type ( this he is working on) BAD communication is from Both of you. <P>OK now that i have said that, I see you as a very bitter man and for that i am sorry . You S must have done a number on you. Do not lump all us WOMAN in a lump group though , because it is not fair. I would never say ALL men are cheaters and can never keeo it in their pants. I belive in taking on everyone by their individual merrit, because that is fair and right. I hope you have a better day. I had more to say, but i will let it go. <BR>Maine<P>------------------<BR>In even the darkest of places there is a capacity to love

<BR>Fof1,<P>Women file for 90% of divorces in the US. Why? The answer, according to a growing body of research, is the <I>expectation of gaining custody of the children</I>. Whoever thinks that they will gain custody of the children pulls the trigger. And because of the anti-male bias in courts, you see women pulling the trigger a lot more often. Although not yet addressed, the expectation of controlling the household income via "child support" doubtless plays a large role in this decision, too, in my estimation.<P>States that have adopted joint physical custody laws have seen divorce rates fall. In other words, when women realize that they won't be calling all the shots, getting out of the marriage suddenly loses some its lustre. I think by switching from an income-shares estimation of CS to a more-accurate (but less lucrative to the custodial parent) cost-shares estimation of CS would further reduce the divorce rate.<P>Bystander

Hi <B>Kevin</B> ~<P>1. Women are twice as likely to file for divorce than men.<P>This doesn't say who abandoned the marriage, it's simply a statistic about who filed. My H abandoned me. I filed. I've seen it happen over and over again on these divorce boards and others.<P>2. Men are generally more happy in marriage than women. (women find fault in the marriage faster than the men)<P>I could assume easily that the reason why men are happier is because women are better at meeting men's emotional needs.<P>I know that I was unhappy from the first. My H didn't become unhappy until 5-6 years into the marriage. He has never met my needs, while I am pretty good at meeting many of his.<P>3. Women are typically awarded custody of children.<P>Partially from bias, but don't you think that many times, it's because women do most of the care taking BEFORE the divorce? Obviously this is a complex issue, and you can't put it into one bullet point.<P>4. Half of all first marriages fail. The numbers only get worse from there.<P>This isn't a man vs. woman issue. This is just a plain old human being issue. I think the numbers get worse because people start dating and get married again far too quickly. I won't decide to remarry based on this statistic, I'll decide based on my own emotional and spiritual progress, and my ability to choose better men.<P>5. Adultery affects the majority of all marriages. (60% I think)<P>Yes but now you have Marriage Builders Assuming you don't marry an addict, and barring other marital barriers, you have greater odds for a happier marriage the second time around....wouldn't you think?<P>6. There was no way in the world I could have expected my wife to have an affair.<P>But you didn't realize you were not meeting her needs. Now you do. You are a wiser man, and won't make that mistake again.<P>7. Men typically try harder to salvage a marriage than women.<P>Really? I've done everything I could possibly imagine. Again, I don't think that this is a fair statement. What does "try harder" mean? Maybe women just wake up sooner to the fact that the marriage isn't fixable? Who knows?<P>8. Women tend to be manipulative whereas men tend to be in your face if something is wrong. Women only imply if something is wrong rather than coming right out and saying it. Bad communication.<P>Aaaah well then, my conflict avoiding, dishonest husband is a woman!!!<P>He was incredibly dishonest with me our entire marriage about his needs. In my face? I WISH!! And...he's just as good or better at manipulation....<P>MEN and WOMEN are bad at communication. I don't think you can say that its all women's fault because they are bad at communication. Men are HORRIBLE too.<P>I could say:<P>...that Women are fools for getting married and having children with men.<P>Men expect us to take care of everything at home while they go off and play at work, earning themselves high paying careers, and when they are tired of us, they can easily find another young babe...while we get left with raising our babies alone - and no careers, and no chance of developing one with all the burdens we got lumped with.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>There are no good women out there from what I can see. There are only needy women who will sucker you in and leave you if they don't get what they need. They are unable to take care of themselves. They are immature.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Thanks Kevin, I needed to hear that because I am a woman, I am immature, manipulating, helpless and heartless!! <P>You know, I could have written similiar things about men, and frequently I know that in the past I have said them.<P>The ONE thing I learned at Marriage Builders was that men don't have the patent on "jerkhood". I have found out that there are quite a few decent fathers and husbands, and quite a few "jerk" women out there.<P>I'll never blanket the male gender with generalities like that ever again.<P>The problems are with human beings...not with men or women.<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Partially from bias, but don't you think that many times, it's because women do most of the care taking BEFORE the divorce?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's pointing backwards to justify the future. <P>Why should caretaking arrangements BEFORE a divorce dictate caretaking arrangements after a divorce?<P>Seriously, think about it a sec. Studies show that children with a stay at home parent score the highest on wellness tests. So if a man agrees to have his wife stay at home, he is later PUNISHED by the notorious "primary caregiver" standard during a divorce. The conclusion isn't as cynical as Fof1 says (never have children), but its hard to avoid telling men, "Under no circumstances should you EVER allow your wife to stay at home with the children. Toss the kids into a day care wasteland if you have to, but *absolutely insist* that she work a 40-hour a week job!" Is that really where we should take society? Not in my view. We should encourage stay at home parents, but not at the expense of primary breadwinners. The solution is 50% joint physical custody.<P>Bystander

Feeling better today. I've been REALLY bummed out lately, no energy. Divorce blues, summer blues, financial blues, work blues, pain in the *ss XW blues, etc., etc. <P>Even though the day started off with 20 more people being layed off at work, I should get at least a 10K raise and I shouldn't have to worry about getting layed off. (I'm very underpaid right now and other people couldn't get their work done with my help, literally) Once my financial pressure (due to the divorce) has been eased, I should feel much better. I made a career change to do what I love and took a huge pay cut to do it. I should regain my previous salary and easily surpass it within a couple of years. Cooler temperatures will help too, but that is several months away.<P>Bystander,<BR>You hit the nail on the head. My XW didn't file for divorce until she thought she would get custody and thought I wouldn't file. Additionally, I am the one who takes care of our daughter the majority of the time now. I did everything I could to allow my XW to take care of our daughter by making it possible for her to not work full time when I started learning about MB. I had hopes of her not having to work at all, but I couldn't accomplish this fast enough. She was too hooked by the OM. My XW works a shift with odd hours but she says it is the "perfect shift". It is full time and she complains about her "fixed income". She still earns a good income. She would be unable to take care of our daughter the majority of the time. Funny, she's doing now the same type of work I got her into because it is lower stress. It's also the type of work where she met the OM. A divorce is a complete change in living arrangements. Child care previous to the divorce should not be a hard and fast rule for who gets custody. The key is to always act in the best interest of the child. Child support; I only pushed for enough so that my XW pays for half of the shared expenses, like day care. Child support is for the children.<P>gsd,<BR>Your wisdom shows itself again. I think I've seen some incredible posts from you in the past. I've never put 2 and 2 together as far as Maslow's Hierarchy of Human Needs and the needs in MB. I think you're really onto something here. My XW talked about something "missing". I asked her what she wanted so that I could fulfill it. She repeatedly said, "I don't know what I want". The things that she needs are things that I could not provide. She has low self-esteem; I think from something in her childhood. She repeatedly brought the same problems home from work. Other people would run over her. She is a conflict avoider and other people took advantage of it. I tried to help her the best I could, but over time I became totally wore out. Telling her she looked great repeatedly had no effect. I thought that her condition would get better over time, but it didn't. Though I did my best, it is something that she has to learn and do on her own. And before any women chime in with "you should have just listened to her and told her you loved her", there is only so many years a person can hear the same stuff without any hope in sight that it will be better. It would seem that men need physical support, whereas women need emotional support.<P>As far as the list, here is what I surmize.<P>1&2&3<BR>Women file more often because they have a better chance of getting the kids and child support. Additionally, the critical needs of women are typically emotional (affection, conversation), whereas the critical needs of men are physical (sex, companionship). The emotional needs are more difficult to fulfill, especially if that person has a huge emotional void. (like my XW) My XW also has a knowledge void. (ditzy blonde) How does one have a conversation when there is nothing to talk about? Men are pretty clueless when it come to emotional needs. Men want a marriage they don't have to talk about; women want a marriage they can talk about. I can see this is a real problem. When a man thinks things are great because nothing is being said about the marriage, this should raise a red flag to him. Still, the woman should express her needs to a man in an unencrypted fashion, no hinting, no leading. He just won't get it. What's worse, if he does, he will see it as her treating him like a child by having to lead him to the conclusion (what she wants). She just has to come out and say it. I suppose men do this too to some extent.<P>4&5&6<BR>It's difficult for men and women to have a lasting relationship when they don't have a clue what the other person wants (their needs are very different and they communicate in different ways). It's also sad that so many people have affairs to get their needs met, further eroding themselves. Everyone is succeptible to an affair. Real strength is required to avoid an affair. Affairs happen for many reasons. The idea that a person had an affair soley because their spouse didn't meet their needs it totally wrong. It is much more complicated than that. Most affairs happen because something is wrong with the WS, not because something is wrong with the BS. Some people's needs just can't be met. They have a real hole that they themselves have to fill. (and yes, I made my share of mistakes as the BS, but hey, I'm human) Maybe monogamy is really a myth. Maybe people just can't keep their promises. Sad fact of life, I guess.<P>7&8<BR>Women are usually the ones to initiate counseling. I think they see problems faster, because their marriage more important to them. Men are usually happier (or ignore problems easier) in the marriage (statistics show this) and are less ready to accept a divorce. Men are typically more devastated by divorce. (CNN article about male suicide following a divorce <A HREF="http://www.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/03/15/divorce.suicide.wmd/#1)" TARGET=_blank>http://www.cnn.com/2000/HEALTH/03/15/divorce.suicide.wmd/#1)</A> <BR>mainemade, "that little nugget of BS" as you put it so harshly, came off the 'net. I forget from where. Women definitely pay more attention to the marriage, but in the end, typically, men (who are not as far along the discontented track) are still working to save the marriage and have a lot more to lose. I was not always happy in my marriage, but I knew that a marriage is not always rosey. Oh, the manipulative thing, I hesitated before I typed it; purely a bad mood thought.<P>Many men don't help with the bills and children much because they don't get ample visitation. Studies have shown this. A 50/50 arrangement is the only solution. How would you women feel if you knew you would only see your kids a couple weeks a year and your X was being totally unaccomidating?<P>I know that the prospect of a man losing his children is just as bad as woman getting stuck with the children when the man runs off to be with someone else.<P>I'll just chalk up my divorce to part of the learning process. It is not the divorce that kills me. It was/is the lying and cheating. She still lies and is still seeing him. I did all I could to help her and this is how I get repayed. Some people just can't be happy I guess. She is still miserable, but it's his problem now, not mine.<P>And yes, Tex, they do smell good. ;-)<P>Kevin<P> <P>[This message has been edited by father of 1, husband of 0 (edited June 19, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by father of 1, husband of 0 (edited June 19, 2001).]

Kevin,<P>I am really sorry about all of the men who only get standard visitation. That's really not in the best interest of the kids. <P>When we went to court, my ex only asked for standard. He didn't want any more than that. And now he doesn't even exercise that. Once every 6 months or so, is his idea of visitation. I would let him see the boys anytime he wants and he knows that. I've begged him to spend more time with them but he won't. <P>As for the child support and custody issue, there are some cases where joint custody and no child support just won't work. But if the father is willing, I do think it is a good idea. It all just depends on the situation. <P>Mitzi

Kevin, it was not meant to be that harsh, i tend to write what i feel, and still agree with it. I hope you have a better day and a clearer thought on a few things. I agree with a few of your points too. Sorry you took it as harsh, i just prefer if you make a blanket statement give me facts to back it up. <BR>And TEX yes we do smell good LMAO ( thank bath and body shop)<BR> MAine<P>------------------<BR>In even the darkest of places there is a capacity to love

Fof1<P>Thanks, though I don't think it is wisdom, rather a random firing of synapses in my brain. I think it is interesting how much your ex wife sounds like my ex husband (and many of the other WS that we read about here). So many people are just black holes and nothing we can do can fill them. It may not be that we are not doing a good enough job meeting the emotional needs of our spouses but that 1) they don't have the courage, self-awareness, or confidence to recognize them in the first place 2) they can't articulate them to us or 3) the needs are such that we could fill them ALL DAY LONG but you can't fulfill someone who is already so fundamentally empty. All the compliments won't make someone feel pretty if they are convinced that they are ugly, etc. "The things that she needs I cannot provide." That about sums it up. And that is where the Harley concepts falls short. Fulfilling needs does not mean completing a person and way too many (women mostly--that was my main point from my post)believe that marriage will make their lives complete. Blach.

Kevin..<P>I understand that you have been through hell and beyond, but you MUST start having a positive attitude towards women!<P>I believe that Women have a much more difficult time than Men in finding "Quality" individuals to start relationships. I believe that most women are very moral and usually have strong feelings AGAINST extramarital affairs in general. I am a BS and I still believe this! I guarantee that there is a special person for you out there who will make you happy, but you must change your attitude and think positive about people and give them a chance.<P>I wish you the best.<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

gsd..<P>I totally agree with your take here! VERY GOOD POST!<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK