It's been a while since I've been in here - things are tough right now. I've been married for 15 years - over the last 4 years, my wife has left 3 times. It started with an affair that she had 4 years ago. Since then she has been involved with at least 2 other men (after leaving me). I was involved with one woman last year after she left me. We both still love each other very much and both of us have a big part of us that want nothing more than to be happy with each other forever. Over the last 6 weeks I have tried to do everything under the sun to show her how special she is to me and how much I love her. She told me that she was going to give everything that she could to see if we still had what it takes for a good relationship, however, the effort really is not there. Over the six weeks, I have bought her many gifts, flowers lots of times, little cards and letters, planned dates for her and I, made a big day out of Mother's Day for her, made plans top to fun things together in the future. She has not given me one card, not one love letter, not planned one date for us. Very often when we talk, either in person, or on the phone, I will tell her "I love you" - there is not response most of the time, eventhough she tells me that she loves me and always will and that she will never love and give another man what she has given me. For her to spend time with me and do things with me seems like "pulling teeth". About 4 weeks ago she spoke of us "renewing our marriage vows" many times - since then more and more distance has come between us. I love this woman very much and all I want is a happy life with her and our kids together. She claims that she is giving me all she can, but I don't buy it. I think she is giving me all she wants to, which is next to zero and maybe hopes that I will grow tired of the situation and go away from her. When she has a weekend off she plans getaways with her friends and her family and goes to a country bar on Friday nights with them that is well known as a "singles" kind of a bar. Just yesterday she was buying nice sexy lingerie and dresses and things I believe to wear when she goes to places like that as a "single" woman - my opinion is to attract men. She seldom wears things like that when she is with me even though I love it when she does. When she is off on the weekend she does not try to include me in her life - sure she has a house that she rents a mile or so away from me, but she is supposed to be giving our relationship all that she has to see what is there, but she isn't doing that - at least the way I see it. I think that she has become addicted to men since she had her affair 4 years ago, and now it is like a big high for her to try and see who she can attract. I also wonder if she is wondering if she still is attractive to men, since she is 41 now, and wants that reasuurance that she is,and by going to bars like this and dressing and acting provocatively that she finds out. I don't know whta to do any more - every day I get mixed signals from her, if not every hour. I have very seriously considered taking my own life three times over a 10 day period. A couple of weeks ago she was still involved with a man that she had met at this bar. She told me that she loved me and that she was going to end it with him - just give her some time. You know she put me through hell with that - she told him that she loved him, in front of me, called him "handsome" and "darling" - made a big deal out of his birthday, took him to a wedding that she was invited to. She made love with him every time that they were together - this all as a way of trying to end it with him, just give me some time????<BR>My friends, some of you may have faced this - I don't know, but I do know that you have faced tough situations before and have been through it all. I still want her and love her, but she seems unwilling to even open her heart and give us a chance at all - what should I do????

OK - I'll take a stab at this.<P>You <B>can not</B> make her do anything she doesn't want to do. You can't make her feel anything that is not in her heart. <P>That being said, I will tell you what you need to do. <P>If you have seriously considered ending your life you must get help. There is a community mental health agency in your area-I have no idea where you are but these are usually funded by the state and they are ususally a reasonable driving distance from most locations. Your church, or another one in the area, may offer counseling services.<P>But I would bet you are approaching true clinical depression if this is how you feel. It probably started as situational depression when she had the first affair and it has probably grown over the years so you probably need both a psychological counselor or therapist and medical intervention. <BR>Have you read Harley's books. There are a number of threads on these boards where you might can gain additional information.<P>I would also recommend James Dobson's book <B>Love Must Be Tough</B> which is about the fact that sometimes we need to let people know that we can go on without them, work on ourselves, and hope they will come around. It might be that your neediness could be holding her back from working on the marriage.<P>Please, Please, Please!!! Seek some help for yourself today.

Rich,<P>You are in a very confused state of mind, and situation. you need to figure out a way to stop yourself, and calm down.<P>First, as Cinderella correctly points out, you cannot force another person to love you. They will if the feelings and the corresponding actions are there. However, its a freedom of choice situation, and they have it just like you do.<P>Second, what kind of person do you think is attractive to your wife? a manly man? an emotional wreck kind of guy? the strong silent type? the weepy, dependent type of guy? Are you acting like a man she would be attracted to? are you acting like yourself? you need to slow down , and talk to your physician about some anit depression meds, lorazapam is an excellent one, I used that successfully.<P>Third, what reading have you done here? have you seen a counselor for YOURSELF? if not, why not? if your best friend was exhibiting behavior similar to you, wouldn't you send him to one? you see, no one can love you if you aren't lovable and love yourself.<P>So, what should you do?<BR>Plan A:<BR>1) check with your physician, tell him your story, gets some antidepressents.<BR>2) have him refer you to a mental health professional within your insurance group, and get an urgent appointment.<BR>3) start to work on your independence in mind and thought. You were independent when you dated her, and she liked you then. How can you get back to then?<P>NOW GO AND START BEFORE YOU MAKE ANY REGRETABLE DECISIONS!<P>WIFTTy<BR>

Thanks for your thoughts and opinions and advice. I agree with some of your thinking and I wanted to let you know about a couple of things. First, I have been seeing a counsellor regularly for the last three years, since my wife's affair was discovered, and have been taking anti-depressants for about 2 years. I do agree the neediness thing tends not to be very attractive to any body. I have done a lot of reading in "here" and also have many of Dr. Harley's books and have read them and agree with his ideas.<p>[This message has been edited by rich1959 (edited June 20, 2001).]

Have you tried a new counselor? did you just take the first one you went to? there is an paradox in the head doctor profession not to see you get well too fast.<P>You need to beg, borrow or buy a copy of Surviving and Affair, and begin reading. You need to make yourself more attractive. You need to figure out your W's personality type, <A HREF="http://www.personalitytype.com" TARGET=_blank>www.personalitytype.com</A> and you need to figure out her emotional needs, courtesy of the MB books and this site.<P>when are you going to start?<P>WIFTTy<BR>

My counsellor I feel has been a help to "me", but not any help to our marriage. Having said that however, if I am seriously thinking of taking my own life at any time, how much is he really helping "me" ?? My wife saw him first, before I did, but quit going to any counsellor at all on October 2000. She has just started with someone new, and I went to see him once myself and yesterday we went to see him together. She definately does say that what she wants has changed since I wanted to take my life. She does not want that responsibility she says.(of being responsible for my life) Before that she had talked about renewing our marriage vows etc, eventhough she was seeing another man at the time. I am not sure now if she was just playing with my emotions or if she was sincere - but now it is different. I do have the book "Surviving an Affair" and have read it, although maybe I need to refresh myself with what it contains. I feel that I am fairly well aware of her emotional needs, I would like her to do the workbook with me so I can know even better, but she is reluctant to do that. I will check out the website that you suggested. I go to see my old counsellor today - I'll see what happens.

Though I haven't been at my best recently due to mostly reasons other than my Xs adultery and our divorce, I see my XW very clearly in your post.<P>She is unhappy with herself and is thriving on attention from men. If you look back through your marriage, was she ever really happy and content? Do you think she was happy before you got married? My XW was/is doing the EXACT same thing. She is insecure about leaving you and throws you a bone every now and then to keep you around. She is out having fun at your expense. There is a huge hole in her she is trying to fill and she has turned to destructive things to fill it. I really don't think YOU can fill it. <P>Plan B time. According to your post, you've been plan A'ing extremely hard, maybe too hard. Tell her you love her, but you can't be with her. This is where it gets really tough, so you are going to have to be on anti-depressants. Until she sees you as a man that loves her, but will not put up with her, she will not be attracted to you. How can you love someone that is groveling at your feet? You may feel pity for them, but not love them. We've all done our share of groveling. We thought we were doing the right thing. Tell her you love her, but you can't be with her since she chooses to do the things she is doing. Get away from her. People are attracted to things they can't have. Make yourself unavailable. In time she may grow up and see that what she is doing is wrong. In time she may realize that what she is doing will not bring her happiness. Get away from her to protect yourself and let yourself heal. For every bone she throws you, she throws you immense pain. (told another man he was "handsome" and "darling" right in front of you) Plan A right now only pumps up her ego and does nothing to make her love you. She's thinking "I treat him like a dog and he still comes around, what a loser!" Plan B and a huge amount of patience will serve you well. Everytime you contact her, she will KNOW she has you on the hook and will continue doing what she's doing. With plan B, you create a vacuum which can draw her to you in time, but only after her fantasy erodes. It's sad to say, but right now YOU are supporting her fantasy. Again, been there, done that, it doesn't make a lot of sense.<P>Get away from her now to protect your sanity. In time you will really believe you're a great guy. In time you will really believe that you do know what you are talking about. In time you will realize that she has been blaming you to alleviate the guilt she feels. In time you will realize that when times were extremely tough, you did everything you could to save your marriage.<P>Like I said, right now, YOU are supporting her fantasy. She has everything just like she wants it. Start breaking her fantasy by getting away from her. I mean absolutely no contact.<P>At the rate you are going, I see that you will be divorced anyway. Plan B it and maybe your marriage will be restored. Right now, your wife doesn't respect you. If she did, she wouldn't be doing this to you. With Plan B, you will get her attention. "Why is he not around anymore?". "I'm I a bad person?". "What is he up to now?". "Can I still have him?". "What have I done?".<P>Plan B time, my friend. And read Love Must be Tough. Unfortunately, I didn't read all of it, but the parts I did helped me tremendously.<P>No mention of children. That is one major blessing. Do you really want someone who you know will lie, cheat, and demean you? Drop her like a bad habit (I know it is hard), but the sooner you do, the better.<P>Must go to work now or I would keep typing.<P>Kevin

Thanks for your "been there, done that" thoughts. I have thought about the Plan B you mention, but at this point have seemed to be content with the odd "bone" that she sends my way, along with all of the hurt - even though it was killing me slowly. No, looking back I don't think she has ever been really content and happy - maybe before we got married when she was trying to "catch" me, so to speak. She says that I was "her knight in shining armour" back then. We do have children - three of them - two boys, ages 14 and 11, and a little girl age 8. It makes it much harder because I think of the turmoil that they have been in as well and also it makes it much harder to ahve no contact at all with her. Just yesterday she told me that she wanted to be "friends" with me, if we went our own separate ways. My response was that I didn't feel that I could be just "friends" with her. She talked about me calling her when I was lonely or vice versa, sharing things about our lives. It sounds a bit like she would like to keep me on the hook for the things that I can give her in exchange for the odd "bone" that you mention. She even speaks of a time when we might both be in committed relationships with other people, but yet meet for a passionate rendevous on a regular basis. The reality is that she has not even been loyal to the men that she has had in her life outside of our marriage. The men that she has been involved with while we have been separated, she has cheated and lied to them - with me. It's just like she has an addiction to men and the excitement that it brings to her. My old counsellor (who counselled her as well) says that she is a borderline manic-depessive, has an addictive personality (in this case is addicted to men) and I also have an addictive personality (I am addicted to her) Also, Kevin - one question - how did it work out in your case with your wife??

Rich,<P>from only what you have posted, she has no sense of reality, and you do not have a particular strong one, meaning, a woman is not worth taking a life over, there isn't one woman, or man, for that matter, that is worthy of taking a life. <P>first, in order to reduce the disorientation of your situation, i suggest that you immediately seek counsel with the harleys concerning the validity, time and depth of your plans. Plan B may mean filing for temporary orders, although with the possibility of divorce. You are not particularly in a healthy situation, and I am not sure that your kids are learning all that much about a good relationship.<P>I suggest harley counseling, with the goal about deciding where the best place is to start.<P>now when are you going to call?<P>WIFTTy<BR>

soon, my friend!

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rich1959:<BR><B>Also, Kevin - one question - how did it work out in your case with your wife??</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>We have joint custody. My daughter resides with me. My X has visitation. We have joint legal custody. I have final say on major decisions. She pays child support. I only get enough to pay for shared expenses; $250/mo. That's all I wanted. It pays for her share of day care/school and associated expenses. I carry medical and dental insurance. She claims daughter. I deduct day care expenses. We split all medical and dental bills 50/50. My daughter is with me the majority of the time due to my Xs working hours. She usually gets her 1,3,5 th weekends and Tues and Thurs nights. She picks up at 7:30 p.m. on the weeknights and returns our daughter to day care/school the next day. Right now, she drops her at day care at 10:00 a.m. Wed and Fri. I pick her up every day and drop off the other days to day care.<P>She is still miserable. I'm feeling much better (I usually tell her that I am extremely happy and really mean it), despite my most recent bad mood. My bad mood has more to do with heat and humidity, no working A/C in my old truck, not enough money to get a newer vehicle, not enough money to cover expenses, questionable job security. I took a huge pay cut to change careers so this is my problem. I should get a 10K raise really soon and that will solve most of my problems. I also shouldn't have to worry about my job according to a V.P. My job is core to my business unit. I will only lose my job if the entire business unit folds. We are losing a lot of money lately. The first time in 7 years. Things are getting tough in IT. Thousands are being laid off every day all over the country.<P>My XW is just mad that she can't take our daughter and move away. My mom did that to my dad; ran away with the OM and took my brother and me with her. He became our step-dad and did more for us than our mom. We were miserable as our mom didn't pay us any attention. Step-dad did a lot with us, but he was a jerk too. There was no way I was letting that happen to my daughter. My mom was able to put the screws to my dad because she had custody and moved up 400 miles from our dad. Not me, I thought to myself. I'm tired of getting kicked and this is going to stop right now. I told my XW that I would fight her "tooth and nail" for our daughter and I meant it. She backed off and gave me what I wanted. I have everything like I want it. My XW is still a pain in the a**, but I hold all the cards at this point. She no longer has the edge by lying, cheating, and me thinking I might lose my daughter.<P>Kevin <P><BR>

well, it sounds like things worked out for you about the best they maybe could have overall - and in time you will most likely really see that. Probably with me it will be the same, but now it is hard to understand that it is for the best. The wife was really nasty yesterday with me, it is our little girl's eight birthday today and so we went shopping for birthday gifts last night for her - it's just a wonder we didn't kill each other before we got home. The woman treats me like s--- most of the time - she had a tough day overall at work I think and then she took it all out on me - told me she was going to see a lawyer and get things moving on with our lives,, whether I like it or not. She only seems to talk about stuff like that when she is really angry - not sure why - I feel it is so important that we should talk about it with a clear head, not when we are mad or upset and say or do things we may not really mean. What she doesn't know is that I already have an appointment scheduled to see my lawyer! Anyways, yesterday seemed like a turning point for me - I was more angry and realistic about her. I saw my old counselor yesterday and he thinks if it doesn't end soon that either I will harm myself or her or both. Even though there never has been any physical violence in our 15 year relationship, he sees that coming if we don't resolve things soon, he compared it to me sitting on top of a volcano, soon to erupt, somewhere - sometime. I am trying not to do too much in any direction right now - I have an appointment scheduled with Steve Harley for next Friday - want to see what his take is on this stuff first, then we'll see!<p>[This message has been edited by rich1959 (edited June 21, 2001).]

You may think that you gained something when she relented after your bout with suicide, but do like you were told, and read Love Must Be Tough. The trouble with what you are doing is that you are validating her reasons for leaving, killing any vestage of respect she may have left for you, and telling her that you will accept all of her guilt for leaving...was that your intent? Probably not. All of the things you are saying that you are doing are classic pursuer/distancer roles. You need to stop that, turn it around. Suicide is not going to get you the last word, either, I'm afraid. There is NO LAST WORD. Please realize that. The trouble is, that you want the situation to resolve itself, or you EXPECT her to fix it. Bringing flowers is missing the point, she doesn't want an empty gesture, what she wants is ACTION. Flowers != ACTION, flowers = weakness. That is a woman's universal symbol that men don't get it.<BR>My situation improved dramatically when I did the following:<BR>1. Quit saying I loved her.<BR>2. Started looking my best at all times.<BR>3. Quit calling her.<BR>4. NEVER mentioned the OM.<BR>5. Quit giving judgements, opinions, status of my life, etc.<BR>6. Concentrated on me.<BR>7. Concentrated on kids.<BR>8. Quit looking her in the eyes.<BR>9. Started making sure my house looked better than anyone else's on the block.<BR>10. Ended ALL conversations.<BR>11. Never give her something when she asks for it. Beg off until another time. I'm always 'busy'.<P>I still reel daily about it. I still love her dearly. It STILL hurts, but...listen to Kevin, he has gotten a good grip on his end of it, and you need to feel better about things ANYWAY, don't you?<P>Please get some self-worth...now. Just because she doesn't want you (RIGHT, SURE SHE DOESN'T.), that doesn't make you unworthy of love. Have you ever stopped to consider that maybe...just maybe, she does not deserve your love? Hmmmmm? Get better, man, you have a big (broken) heart, and all you really NEED to do is learn from it...learn that people get into weird places like this every day, most are worse than this, some are truly sickening. This is not your case, however. You can get through this, but you've got to detach, and let her go, if that is what she wants. Once you do that, and she gets her space, you can THEN show her who you are, what you become. ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS. You can't fix this the way you are trying. This is what drives them away, AND into that fog.<P>Well, of course she treats you like that...you take it so well! I think that they replace the ENs of conversation, and affection...which serve to de-stress them, and move us closer together, with what they percieve we did to them...become distant, and judgemental. So, this is the reaping we do, whether it is justified, or not, but this is crunch time, you need to be able to look at yourself, and see that she didn't get here by herself, you helped her here. The only way out is to start from square -1...maybe even -1001, and work your way back. Trouble is, you don't feel like you should have to. Well, that depends on what you want from it, I suppose.<P>Take care of you, and your daughter. She is very young, and will likely need some help from BOTH of you in order to avoid developing a negative image of marriage herself.<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited June 21, 2001).]

Don't forget that you may need to talk to a physician, either your primary physician or a psychiatrist, about your antidepressants. Just because one worked for a while does not mean it will always work. Sometime the dosage required might change and sometimes you might need a new medication.<P>Read <B>Love Must Be Tough</B>.<P>And if you feel like the counselor you're working with isn't doing the job right now, change!!<P>Remember, you can only take care of you. And until you get to a healthier state of being, she will run from you.<P>But, <B>more importantly</B>, you can't take care of your children in your present condition. You [b]<I>MUST</I>[/i] take care of yourself.

well, my friends - I am making some progress I think - even if it is not in the direction I may have hoped for - it is good for me and my kids I believe. My wife and I talked on the weekend - and I am no longer going to try and convince her to be in my life. She can do and be whatever she wants - that is up to her - and my life is up to me. I am seeing a lawyer in two weeks to get the divorce thing going. My health has been steadliy going downhill since I have been trying to get her back - stomach and back problems, other weird stuff too - all from stress I think. One thing that she is going to have to learn is that if I am not her husband any longer, she has no control over me and what I do or when I do it. She can no longer expect me to do things for her like I always have. She cannot expect me to take her anger when she has had a bad day. She and I have decided to move on without each other - if she has problems, I am no longer her solution! Talk to someone else baby - I was there by your side for 15 years - you didn't want that any more, so - good luck!<P>I am feeling better about life now - I know I have some anger that is bubbling out from time to time regarding her - but maybe that's not all bad - I think I deserve to be angry - at least for a little while. I think it's better to be angry, than just be depressed!!

Rich, I empathize with where you're at. I am also coming to the acceptance that my marriage is over. I am in the process of getting a divorce. At the moment, my biggest concern is making the temporary restraining order I have to keep him away from me, our home, and our business, permanent. I've also had a sequence of stress related health problems and I had breast cancer 3 years ago so I really don't need this!<P>It feels like a big relief to just accept that he's gone. We've been together for 19 years but he's now living with a girl 28 years younger than me, being supported by me (spousal support) and $ gifts from his parents. Yesterday I heard that he's claiming to be totally disabled by an injury that happened about 15 years, and several jobs, ago, apparently with expectations of continued support. He's an alcoholic/addict who was in recovery for almost 10 years but is now using drugs and alcohol heavily with OW.<P>Letting go of the hope of reconciliation is sad, but it's a relief too. I can start to focus on myself. He's not the man right now who I thought I'd married. If I met him now, drunk, using IV amphetamines, and unemployed, and if I heard he'd treated his ex-wife the way he's treated me, I'd run, not walk, in the opposite direction. <P>I've put up with so much abuse over the past year in hopes of getting him back. He waffled for a long time but the distance between us has steadily increased. He's going to continue to blame me for everything, but with the restraining order in place, I don't have to listen!<P>You definitely sound like you're making progress. Take care of yourself. Remember that depression is often unexpressed anger turned in on ourselves. But, behind the anger, there is often hurt and fear. We're not done with this journey yet.

Sounds like your situation is somewhat similar to mine - we've both got our hands full and like you said, our journey is not over. I agree with what you said - my wife, if I met her today, the way she is and the way she treats people - I would not be around either. The last while, she had been gradually getting farther away from me emotionally - just allowing me to make her feel good from time to time, just to use me basically. I have always been to blame for everything that was not perfect in her life(in her mind) - even if it had nothing to do with me. Now, she will have to find someone else to blame - maybe look at herself???? No, I don't think that would ever happen - we wouldn't want to look at the real truth would we?

LetSTry,<BR> So, what does that make her, about 10?