and I like an idiot take the bait!<P>First we missed our favorite parade because he had to get to band practice on time... big disapointment to the kids, to me. He's always had a problem respecting other peoples schedules -- and he's always, ALWAYS late to everything. <P>He's supposed to have the kids Saturday night. I work Saturday night. (5pm-3am) He tells me in the morning that he'd like to go to a party that evening and could I find him a sitter? I (annoyed) tell him no, it's Saturday night, it's fathers day eve, it will be impossible. Besides, it's his night, why doesn't HE look for a sitter himself? (this has been a HUGE issue while we were together -- he always having "someplace" to go, me working, he wanting me to deal with child care) <P>He stresses that it's ok, he'll deeal with it. Sees that it's a problem. BUT could I please call a certain friend of ours and ask... <P>I call him a while later, livid. Leave a messsage that no, I won't call anyone. I have to work, he has to get the kids and get his own sitter if he really wants to go out. He calls back and calls me a "control freak". That I just don't want him to go to a party and I'm " doing this on purpose..." I have yet to figure out WHAT I've done other than get upset that he's dropped this childcare thing into my lap again, last minute AGAIN, when I'm pressed for time to get to work, AGAIN. <P>So he ended up taking the kids (all three) to not one but THREE different parties Saturday night. They're out until 11:30 PM (the youngest is 4 y/o).<P>FF to Sunday am, I'm STILL determined, like an idiot, to make Fathers Day good -- if not for him then certainly for the kids. I come home from work at 3:30. I get the kids, we head down to the streetfair (where his band has played this afternoon) and meet him. Plan is to either walk around fair and eat there together or we go out to dinner (on me, of course) at a nicer restauraunt. He has to break down and load his gear, then he wants to hang out for a while with the guys in the beer garden. At this point I'm wondering why I bothered to show up with the kids. BUT... we decide on dinner out AFTER he's had his beer. I'm going to walk around with the kids looking for a treat and then we'll meet for dinner. <P>Turns out we took too long. We catch up with him and he's having his dinner near the beer garden... I'm getting angry again and I tell him so. he could have waited -- all three of the kids did and they're hungry too. Not to mention that I haven't eaten all day myself. I'm upset, he says it's a misundestanding. I point out that he has once again thrown our plans out the window only to do what he felt like doing at the moment. And yes, I was still upset about the day before, missing the parade and the whole party fiasco. But hey we're going to dinner anyway. <P>In the car, I'm silent. And he starts the prodding. I have no right to be upset. It was a misunderstanding. So was Saturday. Why am I so angry? Why am I ruining his day? Why am I so psycho? <P>Needless to say dinner was uncomfortable, to say the least. I was stewing the whole time. He sat there just staring at me through dinner, not eating because he "made a mistake and ate at the fair so I don't get to eat the good food..." <P>And the icing on the weeked, the kids tell me that at one of the parties on Saturday night, OD saw him kissing someone. Of course, he says NO, the music was loud and he was just close to this OWs' face, talking to her. OD, very upset, says, " No, the band was in the front yard and daddy and this woman were practically in the kitchen and I KNOW WHAT I SAW! " He says that no, OD is wrong. <P>So here he is, now trying to convince OD that she is well on her way to becoming psycho herself. (" no honey, there are no marks on my back, and you're PSYCHO!" )<P>Sorry about the looonnnnggg post. Had to get it off my chest. Also need to figure out how to handle caring for the kids when he wants to be the big party stud and I have to work. As for the prodding in front of the kids, which leads to all out war -- I KNOW I can't even try to do a stupid holiday with him anymore. Icchhh! I feel so slimed...<P>Snow<p>[This message has been edited by Snowwhite (edited June 18, 2001).]

I have an understanding of where you're coming from. <P>Nothing I did was ever right. At least, not in my x's eyes.<P>When you feel yourself being pushed and your anger is boiling, you might find it helpful to say, "I would prefer to talk about it later. This is not a good time for me to get into that. How about after we get the children in bed?"<P>It does sound like one of your great needs is for an increased ability to communicate. I know that was one of our needs. <P><BR>

Hi Cindy, <P>Fortunately, we don't live together. I'm trying to create some sort of a relationship where I CAN take him out, with the kids, for Dad's Day and not get the run around. Not get snide comments and stares throughout dinner. <P>As for the communication part, I have, unfortunately recited that same phrase. He doesn't take it well. He's followed me around the house, yelling, insiting that we talk about _________ (fill in the blank) right now. <P>What I want is to have it engraved in my brain that he will keep using me, will keep taking my car, making me late, keeping me waiting until he's good and ready, AS LONG AS I ALLOW HIM TO. I was more angry at myself Saturday morning than I was at him for once again ALLOWING HIM to infringe, at the last minute, again, on my day and my schedule, on what we had planned TOGETHER just the day before! <P>Will I never learn?

Hi sweetie, I'm going to be really hard on you and give you a few hard thumps. Please don't take it as a personal attack. I'm going to talk to you as one alcoholic wife to another.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>First we missed our favorite parade because he had to get to band practice on time... big disapointment to the kids, to me. He's always had a problem respecting other peoples schedules -- and he's always, ALWAYS late to everything. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><I>Expectations are premeditated resentments.</I><P>If he's "always" had a problem, and nothing has changed...why did <B>you</B> set you and your kids up to expect something different?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>He calls back and calls me a "control freak". That I just don't want him to go to a party and I'm " doing this on purpose..." I have yet to figure out WHAT I've done other than get upset that he's dropped this childcare thing into my lap again, last minute AGAIN, when I'm pressed for time to get to work, AGAIN. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, you are a control freak. You lived with him for how long? I know I still am and probably always will be. It's one of those symptoms of living with alcoholism. <P>BUT thats not what you did this time. This time you simply drew a boundary (although with anger) and let him deal with his own responsibility. He's angry because you started dancing a different pattern and he doesn't know this one yet!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>FF to Sunday am, I'm STILL determined, like an idiot, to make Fathers Day good -- if not for him then certainly for the kids.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are STILL determined to control another person and circumstances not in your control....<P>Father's day is HIS day. Not your day, not your kids day. And his relationship with his kids is between THEM, and you can't control that either. If he screws up by hurting them...well, thats his problem and his responsiblity. Your kids need to live in reality, not in denial. You can not protect them from life or from their father - at least not like this.<P>It sounds like you planned Father's day, and yet you are resentful that you had to pay for it, and do everything, and he didn't go along.<P>This wasn't yours to control...and when it didn't turn out the way you wanted it....you are angry and frustrated.<P><I>Expectations are nothing more than premediated resentments.</I><P>Why on earth were you expecting him to be different than he always has been. Why did you "allow" him - no, I'm sorry you didn't allow, you flat out encouraged him, to walk all over you? You were in control of the plans, why did you make a plan that involved giving him so much power over your day, and then get upset about it?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> I point out that he has once again thrown our plans out the window only to do what he felt like doing at the moment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Are you listening to your own words?<P><I>Nothing changes if nothing changes.</I> Why are you doing the same thing, with a man that is doing the same thing, and expecting different results?<P>This is WHO he is. He is not who you want him to be. And you keep taking out your frustration and anger on him for not being the man <B>you</B> think he should be. <P>All he's doing is being himself. And you are expecting something else, and being angry when your fantasy and reality clash.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>In the car, I'm silent. And he starts the prodding. I have no right to be upset. It was a misunderstanding. So was Saturday. Why am I so angry? Why am I ruining his day? Why am I so psycho? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You had no right to be upset. You did every bit of this to yourself unfortunately. He simply did what he always does, and you expected something else for whatever reason. You aren't psycho? Sounds like insanity to me.... <P>You did ruin his day. You tried to control HIS Fathers day.<P>He wanted to spend it in the Beer Garden, playing with his band and drinking. YOU wanted him to spend it with you and the kids, pretending that you are still a family.<P>This was all about you and your wants and fears. Not about what he wanted.<P>It doesn't sound to me at ALL that he is engaging you in front of the kids.<P>YOU are engaging HIM. YOU are using the kids to attempt to manipulate and control him.<P>Sorry to be so hard on you - but this is right out of the co-dependent handbook!!!<P>So, are you attending <B>Al-Anon</B> yet??<P>((((((hugs)))))<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Absolutely no offense taken!<P>Oh yes, BR, I took the ball and ran with it alright. <BR>( my second post on this thread -- as long as I allow him to, as long as I allow it to happen to me )<P>As for pretending that we're a family. That's a tough one. I would have stayed home, but once again that would have made me the bad guy. I went out and tried to make the best of it, and still I was the bad guy. It's hard to second guess responses here. I need to learn how to just do what I need to do and not even worry about how HE will respond. <P>The best thing about this weekend? I know, I know, I know that I need to learn how to disengage. How to not play by those rules. <P>Oh dear. You do not speak with a forked tongue, oh wise woman . I am more frustrated and angry with myself right now for taking myself there. <P>And as for that meeting, I've actually been to two. Uhm, different groups. I didn't feel like I clicked in either place. One was VERY heavy on the theology. The other, everyone was MUCH older than myself. I'm going to another one tonight which is actually right in my neighborhood. Thanks for caring.<P>Snow<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Snowwhite (edited June 18, 2001).]

Oops, one last thing. <P>I had no intention of spending Fathers Day with him. When we talked about it, he asked if I would, that he wanted to be with the kids AND me. The kids, of course, jumped all over that, wanting me to come along also. I took a shift on Sunday which is NOT a regular work day for me, in order to avoid spending time with him. He called me early in the day, saying that at least we could have dinner together since we couldn't be at the fair to see the show. I gave in (shouldn't have, I know). Thought we would just meet down there, drive somewhere nice, have dinner, go home. THIS WAS HIS IDEA! <P>When we got there he told me of his plans to hang out with they guys in the beer garden after loading their van. I at first suggested that the kids and I should just go on our way, enjoy the fair and he could then hang with the guys and go home when he felt like it. He got really upset, said that he'd just have a quick beer and we should come back for him... I didn't want to make a scene with everyone there. That's why I agreed to stay. <P>So no, I don't think I tried to control Fathers Day. When I said "determined to make it good", that had several meanings. I made plans to be unavailable. I was determined to not argue or fight or make any waves. Especially not in front of the kids. In the end, I was really, really stupid and went along with what HE suggested.<P>SNow<BR>

Snow, you need to not assume, but get specifics so that you two don't have different expectations. You need to make specific plans.<P>that will help, time and places, and expectations.<P>tom<BR>

Hi <B>snowwhite</B> ~<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As for pretending that we're a family. That's a tough one. I would have stayed home, but once again that would have made me the bad guy. I went out and tried to make the best of it, and still I was the bad guy. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Bad guy to whom? The kids? Don't worry, the kids are smarter than that. My H does the same thing. "I'd love to do XYZ kids, but MOMMY won't let me!"<P>Yeah the kids whine and moan and complain - but they know who they can rely on, and who they can't. They know who is there for them every morning and every night and who takes care of them day in and day out. They know who does the lying and the promise breaking.<P>They also have been taught about alcoholism. <P>It's very simple to explain exactly what is going on in our home in terms of the disease that makes Papa act like that.<P>Some things you can't control - one of those things is what other people think, and sometimes that includes your kids and your husband. <P><B>What other people think is none of my business.</B><P>Whew, when I remember that, life is less complicated because I don't have to remember to do a bunch of extra stuff to impress or decieve others.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>It's hard to second guess responses here. I need to learn how to just do what I need to do and not even worry about how HE will respond. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>See...you are trying to figure out buttons to push, how to manipulate and control him. You have to disengage, do what you need to do for you and your kids. And let him do whatever. As long as you are trying to force a particular outcome, you are going to be frustrated.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>And as for that meeting, I've actually been to two. Uhm, different groups. I didn't feel like I clicked in either place. One was VERY heavy on the theology. The other, everyone was MUCH older than myself. I'm going to another one tonight which is actually right in my neighborhood. Thanks for caring.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>How did the neighborhood meeting work out? Keep trying meetings until you find a good one. I know for almost a year, I had to put up with going to first a meeting with all older women (I was the only spouse of an alcoholic, they were all moms) and then a really AWFUL meeting, Al-Anon in name only, but I found that as long as I was working my program, I did get some benefit from both groups.<P>Theology huh? Do you mean they talked about Higher Power too much? Or was it too much focused on Christianity?<P>At my home group, we say the Our Father at the end of the meeting. Even though I am a devote Catholic, I find that I am uncomfortable with it, simply because I now understand the difference between religion and spirituality and the importance of keeping religion out of the meetings so that everyone's HP is welcome!! <P>But in the end, I simply remember to: "Take what I like, and leave the rest!"<P>As for the rest of your response, it seems like you started the weekend with good intentions, but didn't keep your boundaries in place, and next thing ya know, you were trying to run the show, having expectations and feeling major resentments.<P>It's amazing how quickly an alcoholic can reduce us to that.<P>Next time, explain things to the children ahead of time. Keep firm on the boundaries. And let H do what H is going to do, or not do!<P>(((hugs)))<P>--BR<BR><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>