Hi,<BR>In my situation, I have to keep FOREMOST IN MY MIND THAT ALCOHOL ABUSE brought about my h's affair and his finally <BR>(after 3x) following with through with a d.<BR>I have to keep the alcohol factor in this equation as a constant reminder of his behaviors and actions.<P>It only begins to explain in some tiny way the reason for all pain, emotional and financial devastation that his alcohol abuse and the accident and the dwi and the affair<BR>have caused us all.<P><BR>Your input will help because I am so devastated. I need to hear that alcohol is the factor because I can't imagine what else could cause all this pain.<P>I need to be constantly reminded that he is totally insensitive to our pain and he loves his lover--the alcohol.<P>elo

Elo, you need to start attending <B>Al-Anon</B> meetings.<P>((((hugs))))<P>--BR<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Hi, Bramblerose,<BR>Thanks for replying. Yes, I agree, and I am aware of one that I am seriously considering attending. <P>AS I read through some info. about alcoholism and marriages on the net last night, I came across some of the letters written to Dr. Harley about alcoholism and marriage.<BR>I printed out his responses. I am have reading them over and over.<P>Like I said in my post, I have to be constantly reminded by myself and others that I can't force my H to seek treatment.<P>Thanks for taking the time to reply and remind me of Al-Anon. Your support is appreciated. elo

elo, what site did you visit and where did you find the letters from Dr. Haarley about alcoholism and marriage? I'd love to see them. BTW, just got home from my 4th Al-Anon meeting since last Tuesday.

Woohooo good for you LetsTry!!<P>There's 3 articles on the site about alcoholism starting here:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5048a_qa.html</A> <P><BR>The "How Co-dependency Movement is Ruining Marriages" is also very good. I tend to agree with it.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi8110_cod.html</A> <P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

As you know, alchohol is a disease, a symptom of a certain behavior learned from the family of origin(or childhood.) Some will argue that alchoholism is hereditary. That is also true, but at the same time, the beginnings of drinking are chosen. (Or any addiction: drugs, sex, work, etc. Affairs are symptoms of this behavior too. It makes you feel powerful, when deeply rooted fear really makes you feel weak. Some find their sense of self worth in these addictions. <P>Compulsive behavior helps it come about, but it keeps it going strong. Codependancy is the root of this. "Every alchohlic is codependent, and every spouse of an alchoholic is codependent."--this is a saying from my 12-step group for codependency.<P>I will tell you about my H. He thought drinking was so fun and grown up when we were first married. I did not turn 21 for a year, but it was fun experimenting. My H had really been drinking for a while, but not excessively. At least I did not think so. I wasn't looking for it though.<P>16 years later, he has let all our dreams die, finacial security, big promotions, mercedes, romantic getaways, a vacation cottage. <P>he is basically a fearful person, and gets more so as he gets older. Found out he could not handle responsibility. Found out he could not be an effective parent, Was so afraid of losing his job that he takes the most obscene raises that do not keep up with the cost of living or growing children! We never had extra to invest in our future, we have no savings at all. We have a 12 yr old car only, his company pays for his. On the outside we look very well off, but it is an illusion with family heirlooms and a house that eats 1/2 his salary in mortgage payments.<P>All this reality hits him, and his wife is starting to fear for her future stability. His kids who he cannot handle. He runs. He runs from his problems and does not even attempt to deal with them(marriage.) He feels small and ineffective. My anxiousness compounds it. Drinking increases to hide his misery, he is really hiding from his life. <P>He was unconciously looking for someone to admire him for some time. Someone who did not know his weaknesses. He took the first bonifide offer--and got addicted to her too!! He turned even heavier to the bottle to be unconcious when he was home and effectively pushed us all out of his life. He withdrew from his role in the house. He went on as many business trips as he could, so he did not have to face us.<P>In Alanon I now see where my reactions to his drinking facilitated it. His shortcomings were a source of jibes for me when I was angry with his inattentiveness to his family... As I felt more and more rejected, I became very passive aggressive. When I tried to get him to see our difficulties, he ran away faster. Not wanting to deal with such a horrible reality, a tough reality, and hard work to put it back together. But Alanon is a good step or CoDa meetings, good too. I do both myself.<P>Good luck.

BrambleRose, Thanks for the links. I'd read the Codependency article before and, in denial, I used it to give me another reason not to go back to Alanon. <P>My H drank and shot heroin for the 1st 8 years of our relationship. He hid the drinking from me when I met him and I didn't find out about the heroin until after he got clean and sober. I attended Alanon off and on for years, got a sponsor, worked the steps, but he got sober, we moved away, built a house, built a business, and I thought I'd "graduated." He was sober almost 10 years but gradually drifted away from AA. He started drinking again about 1.5 years ago. <P>I attended Alanon again briefly last fall until H got angry that I thought (rightly) that he was using drugs, amphetamines this time. I was so devastated by his constant abuse that I was willing to believe anything if I thought it would make him less abusive, even that he'd learned to drink "normally" not to mention how to smoke pot "normally"...<P>The A just made the whole situation so much worse because my self esteem was so shattered that I doubted myself as soon as he started blaming me, as he did, for everything. The blessing of being alone now is that I don't have to listen to that anymore and I can start to see the truth.

<<In Alanon I now see where my reactions to his drinking facilitated it.>><P>I enjoyed your sage post, burnedspouse. With all due respect, I'm having trouble with this statement. I understand what you're trying to say, and I used to wholeheartedly embrace the philosophy that we are a product of our environment, influenced by many factors, including people. I realize the alcoholic's behavior is driven in large measure by their environment, and the reinforcers they receive from it. Somewhere in the catacombs of their higher brain lies choice. One can only hope that the alcoholic will seek the needed assistance to reacquaint themselves with the ability to choose over compulsion. Now, of course it could be argued that the alcoholic facilitates our reactions as well. That kind of cancels each other out, just as any person's behavior influences the reaction of their spouse. Reaching that higher ground of lofty moral reasoning is better met through deliberate education and the opportunity to consciously apply values that don't always reward our actions. <P>My alcoholic, drug addict, sex monger of a husband has run amok. If I take any responsibility for his deplorable behavior, even by some innocent, accidental facilitation on my part, I would be so fraught with guilt I could not function. Life is hard enough as it is, and if he can't handle the mature stressors that come with marriage and a demanding relationship, he can just hit the road, pal. The man is a broken record, constantly repeating the same behaviors in the same context using the same theme. The script never changes, because HE DOESN'T WANT IT TO CHANGE! All he changes is the binder that holds the script, making the naive believe he has transformed into a moralistic-I-love-Mother-Nature-because-I'm-Mahatma-Ghandi kind of dude. There ain't no way I'm taking credit for that one!<P>Maybe it's easier for me to see his ruse because I've already been replaced. That's OK. He replaced me because he realized I was waking up from my coma, declaring I'm not gonna take his chit no more. He whined how he'd changed, well guess what? Pffffftt! I've got him on videotape drinking all over town with his babeola (who looks a lot like me, btw)! Oh, he must have a twin. He's a changed man. He told me himself he only has a glass of wine or two "on occasion." And I'm Mother Theresa.<P>Hang in there everybody!<P>Nell<P>

Hi Nell!<P>Burned isn't saying that she <B>caused</B> her H to drink. She enabled it. Enabling is when we "<B>create a comfortable environment for unacceptable behavior</B>".<P>We go to Al-Anon because of our reactions to someone else's drinking.<P>Burned is simply taking responsibility for her part in the relationship, which involved an participating in an addiction. Like me, and like many other spouses of addicts, she helped create an environment where addiction could comfortably exist.<P>It's a disease. The alcoholic doesn't <B>choose</B> to be an alcoholic. I'm sure Bumper, or WilliamJ or RidenSober would probably agree that they didn't wake up one morning and decide that their goal in life was addiction.<P>What they do have responsiblity for is getting treated for their disease, instead of destroying themselves and everyone around them with their dysfunction.<P>It's an incredible, cunning, baffling and powerful disease, that uses denial in so shades that those involved lose complete touch with reality sometimes. It sometimes takes a terrible bottom and terrible consequences for an alcoholic to decide to get help. Unfortunately the disease convinces the addict by playing on his/her deepest fears and resentments that recovery would be worse than living with the addiction. Until the addict is convinced that the "Pain of staying the same is greater than the pain of changing..." the addict will continue to drink and/or use.<P>Nell, are you going to Al-Anon? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>If I take any responsibility for his deplorable behavior, even by some innocent, accidental facilitation on my part, I would be so fraught with guilt I could not function. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You didn't <B>cause</B> another person to drink, you can't <B>control</B> another person's drinking, and you can't <B>cure</B> another person's drinking.<P>Does that take the responsiblity burden off your head?<P>However, I am sure that you, as all of us, participated in the sick dance of addiction. When we lie, cover up, pretend that everything is ok, scream, yell, nag, manipulate and attempt to control...we are participating and facilitating in the disease.<P>By my lack of compassion, and my attempts to force my H into becoming a "better" person, I simply gave him the excuse he needed to drink. He said he drank because I was a B^&CH. I provided the money he needed to buy the booze, and did without things that I needed. <P>The "comfortable environment" doesn't have to be pleasant. In fact the meaner and nastier I was to him, the more "comfortable" it was for him to drink.<P>These are just a couple of ways in which we as spouses 'facilitate' if you will, in the addiction.<P>If the thought that you participated or assisted in his addiction upsets you this much, then I very much urge you to get yourself to regular Al-Anon meetings.

Bramblerose,<BR>Thanks for providing websites for the letters and the co-dep. article to the others.<P>I am still struggling with whether I should attend Al-Anon.<P>What is Coda? <P>As I read the dialogue between Letustry, Nell, Buffy, burnedspouse, and you, I am overwhelmed. There is so much to sort out; yet, I still know that my H's need to drink alcohol drove him to that bar where he met ow and now I am about to be d. by him...<P>I have been on the web nightly reading about alcoholism and I see that my H is in the Irresponsible (Abuse) to Pre-alcoholic stage. This is when dwi's take place and their behaviors cause them to lose their families and marriages are destroyed...he made his choices...<P>As I read all of your stories, I am dismayed at how much pain and devastation there is out there...<P>I can tell that some of you have, unfortunately, have been on this forum longer than I and that your situations have gone on longer than mine...<P>I am no where near recovery...I am still naive enough to think, even if for a fleeting moment, that my H might come to his senses before the d. is final--maybe even after...<P>REAlistically, I see taht he would have to bottom out so bad before he would admit he needs help. His pain isn't great enough yet and, maybe, he hasn't even felt any pain-----yet!<P>I need this dialogue with all of you. Please keep in touch.<BR>Thanks, elo<P>

elo, I too can't give up hope that H may come to his senses before divorce is final, despite all evidence to the contrary. Meanwhile though I'm working on taking care of myself and my business and for the likely outcome that the divorce will go through.<P>burned spouse, your H sounds so much like mine, the fear of responsibility and desire for someone to admire him.<P>Nell, I love your description of the alcoholic, drug addicted, sex monger running amok. Could he be a bigamist? I think I'm married to him too. My H keeps buying books by the Dalai Lama, doesn't read them, but I guess it makes him feel like he's on some kind of spiritual path.<P>BrambleRose, I also gave my H plenty of excuses to drink by showing a lack of compassion and attempting to force him to be a better person. He feels that he was never good enough for me, that I was always judging him. I also smoked marijuana with him to try to be just as hip and cool (or whatever words they use nowadays) as OW who's only 22 and therefore infinitely more hip than me. And I believed him when he told me he'd learned to drink normally and that his bizarre, labile behavior was not from using drugs.<P>All I can do is just keep going to my Alanon meetings, reading Alanon literature, and making calls (hard for me, but I'm doing it). Thanks for your wisdom

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>His pain isn't great enough yet and, maybe, he hasn't even felt any pain-----yet!<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, thats ironic thing about alcoholism. The booze keeps the addict numbed long past the stage that most normal people would hollar "Uncle" at.<P>In fact, many people have voiced the opinion that an alcoholic becomes emotionally halted in their development at whatever stage that they were at when the drinking starts. I would assume that this is because the alcohol keeps them from feeling and therefore experiencing and learning about life from an emotional standpoint.<P>Some alcoholics wake up before it's too late. Even many more lose everything before waking up. And even more die before waking up.<P>You'll never be able to guess where your H's bottom is. There's no way to guess. <P>Dont' worry about where he is at with the progression of his disease...worry about the progression of your own recovery!!<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Bramblerose,<BR>I agree with you that there is no way I can know when my H will bottom out..if ever...<P>In the book, "I"ll Quit Tomorrow", about alcoholism, there is much discussion about the defense systems that a person builds when they abuse alcohol. It was the first source that I read that began to show me just how strong the defense systems are that they create to justify their drinking and their behaviors taht result from it. <BR>Impenetrable......by the sober spouse who is usually the blame for all...<P>I went to Al-Anon meetings last fall and I did not like them. After attending 3, I stopped. At that time, I felt I was shortchanging my children who needed me, their only sober parent, at home with them. They didn't like me to leave. <P>I do not believe that I, for one moment, encouraged my H to continue his drinking. My H, who works in a blue collar trade, would come home from work usually on paydays, having drank with the guys. I immediately knew his demeanor when he drank,and he knew this made me unhappy. Occasionally, a disagreement would ensue, and then, he would shower, eat and go to bed...and as they say, the next day, he didn't remember a thing ...<P>He did not drink at home, and we kept no alcohol in the house. Our children rarely saw him like this. But I knew and it made my unhappy that he continued. Eventually, I knew it would lead to trouble, but never to an affair and a horrible accident and dwi, careless operation,etc. and the <BR>horrible chain of events that have and continue to this day...<P>Now, in retrospect, it is apparent taht it was inevitable that something would happen in which his alcohol abuse would begin to take its toll on him and his life--and then, all of our lives.<P>We did not drink together, and his desire to drink (away from our house) took him to places where he met with others like ow with dwi convictions, and that overwhelming urge and need that he has to drink far outweighed his need to be with his loving wife, family and keep his marriage.<P>I am not convinced that Al-Anon would help me but I will consider attending some meetings. I do agree that I did not cause this, and I can not control or cure my H.<P>The person whom my H is at this time is a stranger and a <BR>person whom I know could not come home as he is. He has to want to seek help; and I am the last person whose advice he would take...If it wasn't for our chidren, I would prefer never to see him again in my life... I want to forget him and all he has done to hurt all of us.<P>But, because of our children, I have to keep a close watch on this situation. Since he is in denial, he tells me I am maximizing this...and who was driving drunk and who has two dwi arrests...<P>Thanks for support and advice...elo<P>

elo, I didn't like Alanon at first. You might like it better the 2nd time around because your head's in a different place. Sometimes you can find a different meeting that you like better. And some people like Coda better (Codependents Anonymous), also a 12 step program but no requirement that you be the relative or friend of an alcoholic. And, of course, other people find support elsewhere. But only in Alanon (or Coda) will you get support for taking the focus off of the alcoholic and putting it on to yourself. Most of my other support system just tell me how strong I am for enduring the horrible behavior of my alcoholic H. So I become a martyr. This is no way to find serenity. And eventually everyone gets tired of hearing my sob stories and I have to pretend I'm doing better and hide my obsession with my H, his drinking and drug use, and most of all the A.<P>Alanon offers a way out. I'm definitely not there yet, but I'm working on it and that gives me hope. Even though I still believe my H will burn out eventually on his current lifestyle, I have no way of knowing for sure IF or WHEN it will happen. And what if it does? I want to feel strong enough and recover my self-esteem, be able to forgive the man for what the disease has caused whether we are ever together again or not.

LetsTry-<P>I really like where your head is at. Sometimes I think that I am going crazy. I go to my CoDA meeting and I really have found it one of the best things I have ever done for myself. I am actively seeking the serenity from the pain caused by my H. Even now he cannot talk to me. I really loved this man up until the very last moment. I still do, but it has turned a corner. I know that I no longer want to be his wife.<P>This is one of the hardest things to say in MB, because there is so much emphasis on saving the marriage. But I also learned in Coda that I have value, my own value and strength, and i believe in myself and respect myself. H does not. I have integrity, H does not. I will never be able to trust a man with lost integrity. He loves someone else, at least he thinks he does, but he gave it all up for it. I still think he has made the biggest mistake of his life, and that one day he will regret it.<P>Right now I still forgive, as I have every day since Dday, but my struggle to remain his wife is an empty one and I have to look to the future. <P>I do not want Newbies to think that fighting for the marriage isn't important. It is.<P>Plan A til you drop and plan A some more. I did. What it gave me was the peace of mind knowing that I had given my all to save my marriage, and it wasn't meant to be saved. Or H would have responded to plan A, to our children, or to his conscience. But he did not. Could not. And that is the path he has chosen.<P>I have chosen another, healthier road for myself and my kids! And I am content. Today.<P>Thanks.

burnedspouse, I feel the same way you do when you say, "I have value, my own value and strength, and i believe in myself and respect myself. H does not. I have integrity, H does not. I will never be able to trust a man with lost integrity. He loves someone else, at least he thinks he does, but he gave it all up for it. I still think he has made the biggest mistake of his life, and that one day he will regret it." <P>I haven't reached the point yet where I can say "never," I even dreamed last night that he was offering to come back as long as he could continue to see OW as well. Alcohol and drugs didn't enter into the picture. In my heart I still feel so rejected and hurt, even though my head can say the words that I know he's in an alcohol, drug, and sex induced fog. I took him back once, so easily, and I wouldn't do that again. But I can't say never. I was with him through alcohol and heroin addiction in the past and then almost 10 years of sobriety. I know how much difference it makes. I don't know how I'll react if he chooses sobriety again someday.<P>I try to forgive him. I pray for him, and even OW, daily. But I get angry anew at each new lie or attempt to blame me for his problems. I'm still feeling too overwhelmed by all that's happened. But I'm attending as many Al-Anon meetings as I can. I don't know if there are any CoDA meetings here, but I'll check into it.<P>I think our situations are different from others at MB because of the substance abuse. Although a lot of MB principles, such as looking at your own part and not blaming your partner, are similar to Al-Anon, others, especially when applied by only one person in the relationship, can encourage enabling behavior. This only applies to relationships where substance abuse is a factor.<P>This is the D/D forum and while some of us are still hoping to save our marriages, others need support to cope with the inevitability of divorce. Hopefully newbies can see that there are choices.<P>Thanks.<P>