Hello...<P>So, for those of you divorced, would you be willing to please comment on your child custody arrangement? <BR><B>* What type do you have? <BR>* What has worked well? <BR>* What have been your challenges? <BR>* If you had to do it over again, would you change anything?</B><P>We are talking about 50:50 joint physical and legal custody (since we'll be living in a duplex/one home) and I'm trying to sort through all the advice against this idea for the long-term emotional health of the children. <P>Honestly, I can't understand this because if both parents are willing and able why wouldn't a person go joint versus sole custody with visitation rights? What am I not seeing or understanding here - short-term and long-term?<P>My STBX would NEVER give up custody of his kids and neither would I. I can't say either one of us would make a better parent alone without the support of the other one. <P>So, your open thoughts/comments and suggestions for me to ruminate over are <B>extremely</B> wanted and welcomed. Thanks in advance, I really need your advice here!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

*What type do you have?<BR>Joint, I am the primary custodian<P>*What has worked well?<BR>Flexibility. I try very hard to work with the XW on visitation. I ALWAYS do my best to work the schedules for the benefit of our daughter.<P>*What has been your challenges?<BR>Dealing with pain in the a** XW. She thinks she should have primary custody. Does she get a job with hours so that she can, no. She is just mad because she can't move away with our daughter, be closer to the OM, and stick it to me because guilt is eating her alive.<P>*If you had to do it over again, would you change anything?<BR>Heck no. The current arrangement is working to the benefit of our daughter.<P>There are really no differences between sole custody and being the primary custodian in a joint custody arrangement as far as the law is concerned. The primary custodian has final say over just about everything. Joint custody is a better way of thinking about custody. IMHO, a 50:50 joint physical and legal custody is the best solution.<P>Kevin<P>

Joint is okay but I would never do the 50/50 physical. It is too much for the kids to handle. I realise that you are living in a duplex, but still there is confusion waiting to happen. There are actually many ways to have custody.<P>I personally would go joint with visitation. For you. Legal say over kids and visit whenever you decide with your S. That will not go in my case. <P>But then your kids would know where they stand. Also it allows you to rebuild your life in your own space. Divorce is hard enough without the X being right there to grimace at you. You need to establish your own life with cooperation in child rearing rules. the kids have to realize that reuniting is not going to happen. I would think a duplex would be confusing for them. Plus when you start dating, again kids will be more able to except it with out worrying if X is being hurt.<P>50/50 physical will mean 1/2 time with you, then 1/2 time with S. Back and forth. Not very stable.<P>Sole only means that the parent with the kids has total legal say over the kids. S cannot force anything. If you totally trust your S, I think it would be easier. Then on some legal forms, you both will not be required to sign. This also limits moving away. In AZ, sole custodial parent can move anywhere with only a week notice, the other parent cannot move without permission of custodial parent. If the CP thinks you are moving too far to be good for the kids, S can prevent you from moving. But a court would have to decide it. <P>Visitation versus custody is a totally different thing. And the courts will rule seperately on it. Your S can have sole C and you have complete visitation. Or there can be joint with visitation. the point is, to think of the kids and what is best for them at this most pivotal time in their lives. Make it as easy a transition as possible. Above all concentrate on their stability. You can't go wrong. <P>I have not filed yet, but am about to do so. My plan is Sole with total vistation for H. I have made it clear to him that I will still seek his advice for things as their father, but the final decision will be mine. In our case that is best.

<B>What type do you have?</B><BR>Joint physical & legal, every other weekday at each parent, weekend mostly with me. I'm the betrayed father.<P><B>What has worked well?</B><BR>Transitions directly between us have led to our daughter crying lately. But most transitions are through her preschool. I drop off, she picks up. Next day, she drops off, I pick up. That has worked very well. It's actually a little bit similar to when we were married, because one of us would drop her off while the other left for work before she woke up. Then the early one would pick up, and the late one would come home just before she went to bed.<P><B>What have been your challenges?</B><BR>As I mentioned, direct transitions are tough on her. Some weeks, we need to adjust the schedule and I might not see her for two days. That's not easy for me.<P><B>If you had to do it over again, would you change anything?</B><BR>Yeah, I would not have been such an a-hole to my X which led to divorce in the first place. Regarding custody? No, this works well.<P>My daughter is 4.5. Once she starts getting significant homework (maybe 1st or 2nd grade I'd guess), I'm sure she's going to have to stay with one of us the vast majority of the time. I have a proposal to X once this comes up that she spend all weekdays with me, and alternate weekends with X. I'm sure that won't go over well. X is planning on living in a better school district, but with (IMO) not as nice an area to actually live.<P>My X is seeing someone, but I'm not and don't plan to until I'm sure I'm beyond emotionally hurting people I care about. This I think puts me at a disadvantage once this issue comes up.

* What type do you have?<BR>Joint legal; I have physical custody and he has standard visitation. In this state joint legal is almost always granted, and neither one of us has final say on any major educational/medical decisions. It is all supposed to be by joint agreement.<BR>* What has worked well?<BR>Absolutely nothing. <BR>* What have been your challenges?<BR>The kids beg him to see more of them. His girlfriend keeps restricting him more and more. Each child spends about 12 hours a month with him. I have them on Christmas and Thanksgiving, but he has no interest in having them on other holidays such as Easter, or even holidays that are specified in the separation agreement such as Father's Day or his birthday. He only allows two at a time to visit him, and not overnight, though he is taking one of them for a week. <BR>* If you had to do it over again, would you change anything?<BR>1) I never would have married.<BR>2) I would have tried to specify my having the final say in their educational and medical decisions, with allowed visitation to reflect what he actually does. I would have moved to a cheaper area when he was still paying enough child support that I could have done so, rather than getting a job here so that it would make it easy for him to see them. <BR>

Thank you for your responses... <P>I am believing in the good intent of my STBX - however, have any of you done that only to find out that once it's all over and life starts to go on, your spouse doesn't really honor the agreement? Just makes the 50:50 joint physical and legal and then doesn't keep up their end of the bargain either intentionally or unintentionally?<P>In this case, what would/could you do at this point? Once the agreement is drawn and finalized, can it be changed?<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Hi Ovrcs,<P>I have joint legal custody and ex has visitation. Their primary residence is with me. We both have to agree on major decisions that have to deal with the kids. We have 3 kids and I claim 2 and he claims 1. So far it's worked ok, but we have a problem with visitation versus child support.<P>In our state, one has nothing to do with the other. If a child fails to pay support, he still gets to visit the kids. Which I can understand, but my ex fails to visit the kids ENOUGH. He takes them every other weekend from noon on Sat til 5 pm on Sunday. By my calculations, he sees his children 58 hours a month. <P>If I had it to do over again, for the amount of time he spends with them (less than 4 days a month, or less than 7 weeks a year), I don't feel he should have a 50% say in the major decisions. And as he pays $33 a week per child, I can't see where that shows he is taking 50% of the responsibility. When the kids need something, either he feels like helping, or he doesn't, there is no 50/50 about it.<P>As for changing the decision, as far as I know in my state, any court document CAN be changed, but depending on what you are going for, it is not always an easy change.<P>I understand you are going to live in a duplex. I can't even begin to imagine this type of scenario, but if it works well for you,then that's great. To protect myself, I'd take joint custody and keep the primary residence with me, in case I remarried, moved, etc and wanted to move. <P>I can see positives and negatives to both sides of a situation with the kids living in a duplex like that. Don't they get confused and wonder why you guys just don't live together? <P>I wish you the best of luck with your situation, but I would suggest talking to a lawyer and protecting yourself as best you can,..."if" things go indifferent with you and your ex, you might want to keep options open.<P>Dana<BR>

Thanks Dana... I guess I'm willing to try the duplex thing because no matter what we do, the kids will be confused. So, should they suffer or should we parents squirm a little so their feelings of suffering are minimized... does this make any sense or am I just being sold something I could step in for free? <P>I am trying to think not of my own needs at this transitionary stage... but those of the kids and my STBX in the hopes he'll see something redeemable about me.<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17<p>[This message has been edited by OvrCs (edited June 20, 2001).]

OvrCs,<BR>Don't get caught up in the numbers, 50-50 things. I would say in most cases it really doesn't come out to that. I would say in most cases, the ws is still caught up in their selfish ways and the the kids usually are about third after themselves, and the op. My x has has her work take priority over the kids so they are 4th.<P>We have joint and I am the residential parent,the kids live with me. The only difference I see between joint and sole is that the person with sole custody is 100% responsible for the kids at all times. IN joint, the parent they are with is responsible.<P>X accepted minimum visitation which is every other weekend Fri evening to Sun evening and one night a week. However she works shifts and on her weekends off she usually has to work Fri nite, so her weekends are usually Sat till Mon. Her nites during the week alternate and she does take them 1-2 nites during the week also.<P>This taking them more has changed in the past couple months because our daughter was pushing the issue. Prior x was seeing them pretty much only on the scheduled times.<P>Where I went wrong: I think I took on too much of the finacial burden. X was working part time while we were married so I carried all the insurance. So I kept it all after the divorce. X is now working full time and doesn't have to pay for any medical expenses unless they are not covered and then she only has to pay 30% after the first $100. To me she should be paying 50%.<P>Her child support is based upon her part time salary of 1998. She now works full time and also a second part time job. I could file for add'l child support but she usually pays for half the kids sports/school stuff.<P>How are you going to deal with seeing your x everyday???? Will you able to control your thoughts/action/etc towards him in front of the kids??? I would think that would be very hard. I wish I didn't have to see my x at all.<P>Biggest challenge is getting x to give me concrete times. She just says she will pick them up on Fri. Doesn't tell me or the kids and then expects them to be ready when she calls. Its not so bad during the school year, but now that schools out, I never know when she will pick up or drop off. I guess it is her form of rebellion. I juts plan to have them all the time and when she picks them up its a bonus.<p>[This message has been edited by RWD (edited June 20, 2001).]

There are many different variations, and each one is tailored to the AGE of the kids, and the relationship of the parents, etc.<P>there is no black and white answer, and 50/50 in close proximity is probably better the older they get. however, there needs to be clearer boundaries between the two, which may be difficult when you are so close.<P>In my case, we had a mediated agreement, and when the X went to file it, her lawyer talked her into proposing less time, not sure why, she won't discuss anything with me, and uses the kids to talk with me, etc.<P>I am a soccer coach, a soccer referee, encourage them to do stuff, but the X doesn't, does not want to push them to do anything, just let them wallow, so to speak.<P>X's, they are pieces of work, and mine is probably pissed for something she wants to be angry at. She does get pissed if i act the same way to her as she does to me, but that is typical of a selfish person. Especially if one uses anger as the main bergaining tool.<P>My son said to me when he was in trouble, "Mom's going to be pissed, ya know." I am not particular swayed by that argument.<P>ugh, these situations suck. i wish i had an X that was cooperative, like some of the other couples i listened to last night at our state mandated course. But no, i get to be stuck with a screwed up one. <P>

My XW and I have 50-50. She has a 1 bedroom apartment a block away, they don't even have to cross the street, except at my house, which is a dead end street with no appreciable traffic (town of about 1,000). That is the only thing I like about any of it. Her place is low rent, and ratty, and her neighbors are a very young party couple with a baby. It is sad to see. When her OM stays the night, the kids don't like it.<P>We tried to do a no-fault with no lawyers, and I made her do all of the paperwork. That was a mistake. I didn't get taken, unless you consider the support isn't fair. She can't provide even 50%, and I'm unemployed right now, with no benefits. I tried to tell her that we could not afford to divorce now, but she believes I'm a failure, and that I will fail here, too.<P>S1 has spent two days with her, and she really isn't providing anything for him at all. S2 and S3 don't like her place, or the OM at all. (He lives with his mother, and three kids, and used to be my friend before they wrecked my family.) S4 would just as soon stay with me. They come up here alot when they are there. This is their home. That is...something else.<P>Child support is supposed to be different. It is supposed to be a fact of life...immutable. I wish I could say that, but I don't have much money, and they are here more than not. She should not be allowed that. I am considering revisiting that to be joint w/visitation spelled out. They would prefer to be here...they told me that. My children, with the possible exception of S4, who is 6, are able to make the decisions, so it is going to be easier than most. My XW is not the typical mom I know. (Not mine, either!) She doesn't nurture, and she has always kept people on the outside. This is part of our problems, and she is too selfish now to be a parent. They suffer in this greatly. I don't suffer anything additional as a result, all I have is a giver right now, there is no taking for me, so....<P>We have not fought about them, but she does not follow what <BR>I feel are fair rules. She tooko them on Memorial Day because my friends were having a campout, she knew I would not go if OM and her were there, so she took them. It was my weekend, and I could've taken them, but she said she was going anyway, which in her (most people's) mind, I should've been able to do that. I can't, and that is my decision to make. Too hard on the 5 of us, and quite selfish on her/OM's part. I'll not be party to that, and my children are (75%) old and wise enough to take it at face value. It is destroying their respect for her, but that is her doing, and none of mine. Right now, I wish she had taken her 4 (!@#$) cats, and the dog, because I am SICK of animals right now. Talk about Takers! Whoah!<P>My challenges have been not saying anything to her about her abandoning responsibility for personal pleasure in all of it, but most especially wherer the kids are concerned. She has always thought that the way she feels is sufficient...action apparently is not necessary. S1 and I were talking last night, and I said if she is having OM sleep over, then he can provide something, too. (Not that I would want that, but....) He said, I'm glad you said that, Dad, that's what I thought. If he wants to pretend to be my father, he can act like it, but he will never be my father, you are.<P>I wouldn't do it differently. I'd like it to be different, but I spared everyone a lot more heartache, and I wanted to leave the door open for her to return. She is trying to slam the door, but I am not letting her. The children are there, she can't help that. She can't trreat them like she did me, and come to find out, I'm not so irresponsible, and they have heard me. They all 4 have morals, and feelings, and all of that. Good for me. Good for them. Too bad for her.

<BR>OverCs,<P>Studies show that children are fare best in joint custody arrangements, followed by paternal sole custody, followed by maternal sole custody. Many states now have a presumption of joint custody, and these laws were enacted partly in response to the aforementioned child outcomes. I absolutely support a default of joint physical and legal custody unless a parent can be proven unfit (that's not an easy standard to meet, either).<P>Most of the arguments against joint custody really stem from one parent desiring to maintain their own life options (e.g., ability to move away) at the expense of the children's relationship with the other parent. Another classic argument you'll see against joint custody is that it can only work if the parents are cooperative. What a convenient excuse for mothers; after all, by simply becoming combative, she would stand to gain the "default" of maternal sole custody in some areas. Its much more sensical to assume a presumption of 50% joint custody and tell both parents, "If you get combative about this, you will lose parenting time." So instead of rewarding misbehavior, we would punish it.<P>There are undoubtedly parents who don't want a 50% time split, and of course these people can't be forced into taking the children. But this doesn't argue against joint custody at all. Parents who have joint custody < 50% of the time have a better track record of paying CS. The psychology of it is pretty simple: If they feel that they have a real say in how the children are raised, and if they feel that their access to the children is strengthened by a joint custody arrangement, they are more willing to pay.<P>In sum, joint custody produces better outcomes for children and in cases that are < 50% for one parent, a better track record of paying CS. I personally believe that a 50% joint physical arrangement is ideal, but its true that economic circumstances can sometimes prevent that. Your duplex solution seems to get around that well, and as long as you can handle the proximity to your ex your children will do fine.<P>Bystander

Put me down as one who is not in favor or joint custody. But first, the answers to your questions.<P><B>* What type do you have?</B><P>We have two children, a son who is 7 and a daughter who is 2. Since our daughter does not go to school, she has a different schedule than our son.<P>Basically, we split time 50/50 with our daughter and I have our son all but 6 days (three weekends) per month. We also live about 150 miles from each other (I moved) so between the two of us we drive 3000 miles per month to exercise parenting time.<P><B>* What has worked well? </B><P>That depends on what you mean by well. Our son is quite upset with mom because she left. He does not like to be there with her, because she spends most of her parenting time working and takes her days off when she doesn't have the kids. We both want more time with the kids, so we have conflicts over that, including the usual divorce conflicts.<P><B>* What have been your challenges?</B><P>Dealing with the children's emotions over the loss of daily contact with their parents. Different discipline in the two households. BF spanks my 2 yo if she touches his beer or ashtray.<BR> <BR><B>* If you had to do it over again, would you change anything?</B><P>I would have moved before she got so serious with the bf. Maybe this would not have happened.<P>I think that the children need stability. This going from one house to the other is not healthy for my childrens development.<P>I don't really beleive the studies that point to better outcomes for joint custody. We haven't been doing it long enough for good data (spoken in my best social researcher tone). And outcomes are such a subjective thing.<P>IMHO, the kids and I are a package deal. Get rid of one, get rid of both. You wanted a new life, go have your new life. Leave the family you left and get on with it.<P>Of course, I may be a bit bitter.<BR>

Brian,<P>Why is b/f spanking your kid?????? Tell him you will bring him up on child abuse charges if he touches them. <P>I assume you know that most child abuse deaths are caused by the mother's boyfriend as opposed to the father.<P>We had a rash of these infant deaths earlier this year in my area here. This is also one of my fears,rational/irrational).<P>Bob

GPabri, you say... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>We both want more time with the kids, so we have conflicts over that, including the usual divorce conflicts...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Care to elaborate a little more on what "the usual divorce conflicts" are any of you? Maybe I'm a freak about being prepared but I'd like to know what some of the pot holes are so that I can drive around them when my time comes... rather than fall into them and come out LBing everyone including myself!<P>Thanks for all the replies... this is VERY helpful. But, I can see there is such a mix of views. Ladies... what about you? I've heard a lot from the guys on here!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Oh and RWD you say... <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Don't get caught up in the numbers, 50-50 things. I would say in most cases it really doesn't come out to that. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What my main concern is that my H has an international job that will require travel. So, the agreement is made for 50:50 legal and physical joint.... it sounds good but say that because of his job he's not able to fulfill that amount of time. The child-support is based on the custody agreement. So, I may end up having physical custody 80% of the time as I don't plan to work any more than I absolutely have to... he can even pay me to be the babysitter for all I care. The issue is what is decided I guess in the financial terms... if he wants 50:50, I'm okay with that as long as he compensates me if it's less than that. Because I find it would detrimental for me to get a full-time job and put the kids in day-care. <P>I guess that's one of my main concerns... However, in saying that, I also do international travel but on a way scaled back basis... it pays my bills if I can do an assignment about once every six or eight weeks.<P>I guess we'll just have to be flexible and make sure that both of our GIVERs are in full gear... it's just that if we can work this out to be suitable for both of us... it's so frustrating that we can't give our marriage another go. He sees this up-front hard negotions as the only way to true peace of mind for him. Life without me. Oh well... I'm desparately trying to live at peace with this and it does me no good to get upset and frustrated. <sigh><P>Cheers!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by grandpabri:<BR><B>BF spanks my 2 yo if she touches his beer or ashtray.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What?<P>He sounds like a real winner. 8-p<P>Beer? Ashtray? Gives me the impression all he does is drink and smoke and spank your daughter. Several problems here.<P>1. He is drinking. Poor judgement is exercised when someone is drinking; especially when there is conflict.<BR>2. He is smoking. Your daughter is inhaling it too.<BR>3. He is spanking your daughter while drinking and smoking. What next? Cigarette burns?<BR>4. He seems more interested in drinking and smoking than holding and caring for your daughter.<P>To sum it up.<BR>You toucha my daughter, I breaka you face.<P>

Ibid.

Yeah GPabri... What is up with that and what can you do about it? Or, were you slightly exaggerating? Really, that does NOT sound good...<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Well,lets see. I had primary custody and the dad visitation. I would have loved 50/50 or what was best for my children. I would have loved to have an x that worked for the childrens sake they do need both parents and it is so helpful to them as they grow. I did not get that, his attitude was if they live with you I don't have anything to do with them he punished them for living with me. My second son at 13 decided to live with him and it was a nightmare. All is well now the boys are 23,21 and 17. They have seen a lot of dad's behavior as his choice and we've talked about it, they struggled and felt they had no dad only in name. Any agreement I had with him he broke and basically I've raised them alone and paid for things totally on my own,My children now mirror back to me all that I taught them and It's great to see what I gave them worked. When you make choices that are best for the child in their intrest to your best ability that's what counts. You have no other control.Even though the father is who he is it is still a fact it is thier dad and I support anything the wish to do regarding the dad even to this day. I say focus on your personal growth, stay out of the x's personal life and focus on the best for your children they are your precious gift no matter what and you will be fine....Best Regards C