Well,lets see. I had primary custody and the dad visitation. I would have loved 50/50 or what was best for my children. I would have loved to have an x that worked for the childrens sake they do need both parents and it is so helpful to them as they grow. I did not get that, his attitude was if they live with you I don't have anything to do with them he punished them for living with me. My second son at 13 decided to live with him and it was a nightmare. All is well now the boys are 23,21 and 17. They have seen a lot of dad's behavior as his choice and we've talked about it, they struggled and felt they had no dad only in name. Any agreement I had with him he broke and basically I've raised them alone and paid for things totally on my own,My children now mirror back to me all that I taught them and It's great to see what I gave them worked. When you make choices that are best for the child in their intrest to your best ability that's what counts. You have no other control.Even though the father is who he is it is still a fact it is thier dad and I support anything the wish to do regarding the dad even to this day. I say focus on your personal growth, stay out of the x's personal life and focus on the best for your children they are your precious gift no matter what and you will be fine....Best Regards C

For the most part, I steer way clear of posts about child custody, because I made a choice that so many disagree with, and frankly, I'm tired of defending that choice. So, take from this what you will.<P>My ex-H and I have three children, one of whom, our son, is under 18 (he's 16 1/2). He has special needs, and because of those needs, requires some therapies and schooling that it took me YEARS to get. Although his father and I were together, I was the primary care-giver, and did the footwork to get his educational and emotional needs met.<P>My current H lives in a different country, and I came here to be with him. I left my son with his father, and I see him once or twice every three months. I call daily to speak to him (and to my daughters). I've never missed a day. <P>I knew that my son could not get what he needed had he come with me. At least not until immigration concerns were settled with me first.<P>I went to therapy with my kids (and me, of course, their dad refused to come) and my H has said that as soon as possible, if my son wants to come here, he can come, to live, or to visit. <P>Clearly, this is not a 50/50 arrangement.<P>So, you might wonder, does it work for my son? For the most part, yes... but... nobody is 100% happy. He wishes his dad and I could have stayed together, just like most kids do... and yet, he tells me that I'm a different person now -- not sad, not stressed, not crazy -- and he likes to see me happy. I miss my kids SO MUCH... <P>I say, again, this was a very personal choice and one I made with a great deal of care. <P>

...and it was best for him, too. Could be doing good for XH, as well. No need to defend that.

Thank you w_f_h... of course I thought so too... but I have been flamed but good for my decisions... and it hurts to have to re-explain over and over again...<P>Appreciate your thoughts!

CLC - thanks for the uplifting words and vote of confidence. I think it will be all right. I have to give and give and give to the kids because they deserve the best I've got since they didn't ask to come into the world in the first place... so, like my father (mom's husband) who chose to raise me in spite of the fact that my mother had an affair and got pregnant with me... I think I can suck it up too and do what's in the best interests of the kids and I don't have even close to the same scenario.<P>Anyway Nyneve... what I've learned as that there is no cookie cutter approach to divorce and conflict. So, what works for you and your Ex will never work for someone else. But the principle of the matter is to live at peace and to think not more highly of ourselves than others... isn't it so? So, who is ANYONE to judge you...? Some may ask questions cuz it hurts them and their personal situation but they are not walking a mile in your shoes. So, to each his/her own in a sense... and take not too seriously the words of someone else as long as you live with integrity in your decisions.<P>Cheers!<P>ps - admittedly the roller coaster is climbing towards the peak... I'm expecting a fall also sometime soon as this is not my normal demeanor ALL of the time... Be positive is good but be real is another. My pain is real and I feel it more intensely at times more than others... just so you know I'm not completely surfacey here, which I feel I'm beginning to sound like.<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

I have sole.<BR>I am the ex wife.<BR>He has been bugging for joint.<BR>I hate the idea.<BR>He has never been responsible enough on his own to care for her.(our daughter)<BR>I also know this is amoney issue.<BR>He hates that i can make it on my own.<BR>So he has been really late with child support.<BR>Do all men feel this way???????<BR>Currently he is in the arrears 1200 dollars.<BR>He says he loves me.<BR>Wants us together<BR>A little scary to think this pledge is coming<BR>from someone who feels no reason to pay support.<BR>Let alone has ever been consistant!<BR>I admit i am NOT perfect or even close.<P>But why do men feel so hard done by with child support???<BR>

I have sole.<BR>I am the ex wife.<BR>He has been bugging for joint.<BR>I hate the idea.<BR>He has never been responsible enough on his own to care for her.(our daughter)<BR>I also know this is amoney issue.<BR>He hates that i can make it on my own.<BR>So he has been really late with child support.<BR>Do all men feel this way???????<BR>Currently he is in the arrears 1200 dollars.<BR>He says he loves me.<BR>Wants us together<BR>A little scary to think this pledge is coming<BR>from someone who feels no reason to pay support.<BR>Let alone has ever been consistant!<BR>I admit i am NOT perfect or even close.<P>But why do men feel so hard done by with child support???<BR>

looking ahead,<P>I think a lot of men resent child support because the guidelines are not based in reality. Speaking in generalities here a sec, the guidelines produce unfair results when: (1) household incomes are above $35k to $40k a year (at which point they become increasingly excessive), (2) there is a disparity in income between spouses (which tends to punish the higher earner), (3) they ignore the after-tax implications of CS policy (i.e., head of household status, dependency exemptions, EITC, and child credits are real after-tax income that amounts to thousands of free dollars to the custodial parent and SHOULD be treated as income, but they are not).<P>The guidelines themselves are based on bogus cost estimates made via indirect measures. Incredibly, child support amounts are based on the amount of adult clothing, alcohol, and tobacco an intact family would purchase! At least that's true in most states. In Massachusetts, they are conducting a quadrennial review of the state's guidelines right now and - I'm quite serious - NOBODY can explain how the current guidelines were derived. Gives you a real sense of fair play, doesn't it?<P>Economists have begun addressing this issue and have argued that we should drop the entire income shares approach and instead move to a cost shares approach, where we *directly* measure expenditure on children. This makes a LOT of sense, and the financial reality is that for upper-income families this would cut the average CS amount in half. After studying this issue for some time, I simply no longer believe this is only about children...CS is also about producing hidden alimony as a sop to the feminist lobby.<P>And very few politicians have the fortitude to stand up for doing the right thing, which would be to directly measure child costs. What politician wants to be portrayed by feminists as "starving the children" by cutting CS amounts in half? Even if its the morally right thing to do, what politician would risk it? And don't forget, the wealthy people are the ones who contribute to political candidates...and so goes the cycle.<P>There is another reason men get angry about paying CS. Its this simple: Our society spends $340 in child support enforcement for every $1 in visitation enforcement. Its an absolute insult to be subjected to the CS drill of wage garnishment, threats of imprisonment, threats of having driver's licenses revoked, etc. only to see a custodial parent interfering with visitation with no *real* threat of punishment. The system will slap a non-custodial parent bloody very quickly, but ignores misbehavior by a custodial parent. The only real threat - switching custody - is so rarely invoked its not considered a possibility.<P>The only way out of this stinking morass is to start passing and enforcing strong joint custody laws, to viciously crack down on family court judges who show anti-male bias (in fact, I support vast restrictions on family court judges given the anti-male bias they've exhibited), and to start routinely making women pay "child support." When enough of this economic nonsense is spread between the sexes, we'll get reform. But not until then, I'm afraid.<P>I'm sorry if I sound cynical. I don't even pay CS. But after interviewing family lawyers and studying this system in two states, I am convinced what we are doing as a society is very wrong.<P>Bystander<p>[This message has been edited by Bystander (edited June 21, 2001).]

Okay, whats the deal with this staement:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But why do men feel so hard done by with child support???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>As a custodial dad whose ex-wife is over $4,000 in arrears in less than a year, I really resent that remark. She also feels that she does not have to work full time to support the children and she deserves spousal support, even though I didn't work full time for 6 years before our separation.<P>Of course she screams bloody murder every time she does not get her full parenting time, but is completely mum on the issue of CS.<P>NCP moms are statistically less likely to pay CS than NCP dads.<P>This is an NCP and CP issue, not a gender issue.<P><BR>

My x hates CS also and complains from time to time about it being so high. It is based on the percentage she provided to the family when we were married. It was 30% so her CS is based on 30% of her 1998 wages which were part time.<P>She now works full time and has another job to work probably unlimited hours if she wanted so I don't know what the beef is. It probably has more to do with guilt than anything.<P>When we settled on the joint I was under the impression that x would do more with the kids. But she just used it as vacation time for her and b/f, now h. She then changed jobs and instead of takinga full time job where her hours would allow her to do more with the kids, she took the 12 hr shifts. So she is gone either all day or all night and doesn't go to the kids stuff.<P>Other things is she uses me as a babysitter. If she is going on a vaction, she just tells me she is going. Tonite she was supposed to take the kids, but the other job was offering a computer class she wanted to go to, so guess what she is doing.<P>Other divorce things are probably leftovers from the hurt. OM has access to the kids. If I do ask her to pay for half of things like sport shoes, camps, fees, etc. she usually drags them out over 2 pay periods. I don;t have that option usually.<P>She has also let her morals/ethics go, she was letting the kids see R and PG13 movies, which they are too young to see resepctively. I talked to her about it but it really has done no good.

* What type do you have? <BR>Joint. No child support either way, kids are on his insurance. I have the right to establish residency for all three and international travel.<BR> <BR>* What has worked well? <BR>Oldest lives w/xH, two younger live w/me; alternating weekends, the three children spend every weekend together. Alternate holidays, summers w/me because they stay with my family and that means xH doesn't pay daycare. I take them shopping.<P>* What have been your challenges? <BR>Since xH and I live in separate cities, balancing and/or attending school activites, scrambling for sitters and doctor's appointments; agreeing on curfews, dress, manners.<P>* If you had to do it over again, would you change anything?<BR>The past is the past and hindsight is 20/20, so it's a moot point. I'm too busy worrying about tomorrow and dealing with today. <P>We are talking about 50:50 joint physical and legal custody (since we'll be living in a duplex/one home) and I'm trying to sort through all the advice against this idea for the long-term emotional health of the children. <BR>Since you're already being amicable, sit down w/you H and w/o the kids and draw up some rules. Then be sure to stick to them. The children's emotions are tied to yours. If you have trouble with this situation, they will too. If they see that you can deal with it and stick to the rules, they will too.<P>Honestly, I can't understand this because if both parents are willing and able why wouldn't a person go joint versus sole custody with visitation rights? <BR>I believe that sole custody limits the ability to parent and both the child and the parent are cheated of keeping an important tie necessary for the emotional growth and well-being of that child.<BR> <BR>What am I not seeing or understanding here - short-term and long-term?<BR>Short-term - You can work something out that may work for everyone all the way around as things stand, but what happens when in the<BR>long-term, you or your STBX develop relationships w/others? What if the future OP has children too? Would the future OP accept this living arrangement, etc...<P>STBX would NEVER give up custody of his kids and neither would I. I can't say either one of us would make a better parent alone without the support of the other one. <BR>Neither one of you should have to. Divorce, separation, whatever, your children still need both of you.<P>

Hello... Thanks again everyone, this is immensely helpful in thinking this through.<P>Bystander - you do have a lot to say about this and I'm very curious as to your interest when you're not even paying CS? Anyway, thanks for your thoughts...<P>TRose - how did you think to put the clause in the agreement for okay on international travel? That's a good point! I must remember that.<P>Cheers everyone and thanks again!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

It wasn't really difficult, but a little touchy since my xH tried to block that. <P>1- I had to prove that international travel was already established for my kids and myself. My oldest is 11 and the first time I took her out of the country she was three, every year since for a month to three months. Same with the other two.<P>2- I have no other family in this country, so the judge decided that to block my ability to visit my mother's family with my children would be unfair and an emotional hardship, especially since the children look forward to this "vacation" every year during the summer. <P>3- Since they had been traveling from a very young age and always return for the school year, he also decided that if I were going to "run" with them I would have already done so. <P>4- My dual citizenship also places me under the jurisdiction of both countries, so if I did "run", I'd be in trouble either way. <BR>

TRose, you say: <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>he also decided that if I were going to "run" with them I would have already done so. <P>4- My dual citizenship also places me under the jurisdiction of both countries, so if I did "run", I'd be in trouble either way. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, but you wouldn't do that would you? It's so hard to think clearly when you're hurting but I'm finding some satisfaction in thinking on behalf of the benefit of the children... who love their father equally as much as me. So, I'll lay my life (expectations, desires, wishes) down for the moment... and in fact, it seems that I'm finding true peace in doing it... I'm not chasing after the wind, which is what I've been doing for so long looking for that ever elusive wonderment of life.<P>So, where is your family from? I come from an cross-cultural marriage myself. My H was born in India... but has lived in the U.S. for over 25 years (except for the six we lived in E. Europe). It's been interesting blending cultures and I think that may be part of some of our issues.<P>Cheers!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17