WOW! There is so much pain here - so much <I>reason</I> for pain - that I have hardly any idea where to begin! I guess my first and most important suggestion right now is: take a deep breath or three and <I>slow down</I>.<P>TLFM, the problems you face are very big, and significant, but they don't have to be solved immediately. You are confused, so give yourself some time to let your thoughts and feelings settle some more. Be patient with yourself.<P>At the moment, I want to try to address just a few things...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Too Late For Me?:<BR><B>What do I do in the mean time??? He doesn't leave me alone, I asked him to move out (which he did with relatives) - but he still comes by here everyday and calls and emails me constantly!! He also just stepped in and took over taking the kids to church without ever asking me if I had planned to (and of course, with one car- we would have to attend to gether like one happy little family which I refuse to do but would make him just so happy)- so I let him do what he is wanting to with the kids because for the first time in his life he is actually being a FATHER....</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You need to establish some boundaries for yourself, and you need to communicate them to your husband. He's not going about reconciliation well at all, possibly because he is trying to manipulate you or possibly because he doesn't know what he's doing. But if he <I>really</I> wants to reconcile, he'll be willing to do whatever is necessary, and right now that means giving you some breathing room.<P>I'd suggest telling him that (a) it will be six months before you can file for divorce; (b) you have no hope for your marriage; (c) you will remain open to the possibility of reconciliation, although you believe the chances to be remote; (d) his current behavior is driving you away; and (e) his only hope for reconciliation is to respect your boundaries. I am assuming (actually hoping) that these statements are (or will be) an honest reflection of your feelings.<P>This will show your husband that you are going to be honest with him about your feelings, but it still gives him some room for hope. By leaving the door open a crack for him, his desperation should be eased a bit, making it easier for him to respect your boundaries.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>This is the weirdest most aggravating thing I have ever experienced!!! I am at a loss as to how to handle this- because I can be friends with him, I enjoy his company, but I don't plan to be married to someone who could do this to me over and over as though it was no big deal.<P>He also grew up in christian schools and such- so not only has he learned to sneak around wonderfully well- he also knows how to talk the talk- but whether he is being real or not?????? How in the world can I tell in only 4 months!!!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>What you are experiencing is called ambivalence, and it's why I believe you should admit to yourself that reconciliation <I>may</I> be possible, however unlikely it seems. It's also why you should take your time. You <I>can not</I> trust your husband. You <I>should not</I> trust your husband. A few months is <I>not</I> enough time to establish trust from <I>anyone</I>, let alone someone who has betrayed you many times over.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Of course I'm confused- I love him with all my heart....I just don't think there is any way I can be the one that has to do EVEN MORE WORK....sorry-</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Whoa! Who says <I>you</I> have to be the one to do any work at this point? I don't read it that way at all!<P>Sure, you're going to have to work through your feelings, but you're going to have to do that any way, regardless of what your husband does. This is major, major trauma you are dealing with, and it can't be swept under some rug.<P>But as far as your relationship with your husband is concerned, I'd say it's <I>his</I> turn to do the work. After all, <I>he's</I> the one who wants the relationship. That means he's going to have to prove himself, and he's going to have to do it many times over. <I>Your</I> role is to work on <I>yourself</I> now, and if he wants you back he had better not interfere!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Sorry this is long and angry- I've had to vent- I have no where else to vent- and I'm probably in the wrong place because I don't have the energy or interest in building a marriage that he has torn down...already went that route once!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I for one believe that you have <I>every reason</I> to divorce your husband, and I wouldn't criticize you for doing so. I <I>also</I> believe that you will be relieved of a lot of pressure from everyone, <I>including yourself</I>, if you acknowledge the <I>possibility</I> of reconciliation. I do <I>not</I> know whether or not in the long run you would be happier trying again with your husband, but I don't think you should be devoting much thought to that right now. Right now you need a chance to heal.<P>I think this forum is a very good place for you. All of us can relate to some facet or other of what you are going through. All of us can relate to your pain. And I don't know of anyone here who would urge you to stay with your husband <I>no matter what</I>. If we gang up on you, it won't be to try to save your marriage; it will be to try to save you from hurting <I>yourself</I>.<P>Alas, we have all learned from our mistakes, and one of the most important things we have learned is that we have much more to learn.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited June 21, 2001).]

Oh Gnome- you don't know HOW perfect your timing was to me on that post!!!<P>I just got off the phone with him (he called- AGAIN!!!!!) and GGGRRRRRRRR!!!!<P>Maybe I should direct him here! LOL!!<P>He isn't getting it- and what you said is SO true- and more than anything- I NEED SOME SPACE!!!!!!!<P>He is in North Carolina this week on business- I fell apart this morning with frustration and anger at all of my situation, and the kids were getting on my last nerve (I also work 30-35 hours a week out of my home doing bookkeeping- so I get NO REPRIEVE from the children- PLUS we are new to the area and I don't know ANYONE to watch them so I can take a break!)-<P>ANYWAY- (breath) I expressed to him thru tears, that I needed him to STOP calling me and emailing so much- and that I need some time away FOR ME...I have been expressing that since day one- and NOT ONE PERSON AROUND ME has respected it- and short of just "disappearing" (which would freak everyone- especially my kids- out)- every attempt I've made at some solitude has been thwarted by him/family/circumstances.....so this is what he says:<P>"OK- I will take some days off- probably without pay- and stay with the kids and I will give you $500 to go and do what you need to do and have some time alone"....<P>That statement got my ire up because it would cost us ALOT for him to do that as far as salary (new on job- still earning time off) AND because I make my OWN money that I can PAY FOR TIME AWAY MYSELF!!! (he always tries to "care" for me right now- and it is just fostering my co-dependence and is driving me nuts!!!!<P>ANYWAY- (breathe) We agreed that I would take some time away soon, and so about an hour later he calls me AGAIN and asks- "are you going away alone or are you going to take someone (meaning another guy) with you?" AAUUGGHHH!!! Which of course proceeds to start a WHOLE nother hour to-do on the phone about whether I would be honest or lie to him if I dated him, and if I divorce him, he would want to date me only if I was honest with him, blah,blah,blah,blah!!!<P>I was furious!!! I have ALWAYS been faithful- and it irritates the snot out of him that now, I actually NOTICE when attractive men look at me- or smile at me- infact, I have even had three ASK ME OUT- but am NOT dating them- would NEVER have sex with them- and AM NOT READY FOR A RELATIONSHIP WITH ANYONE!!!!<P>Ok- so- (breathe) the point of all of that is this- my day today- and the timing of your post- as truly inspired me to just SET MY BOUNDARIES and stick with them!!! I am NOT going to let him manipulate me- and if he EVER has a chance with me again- he needs to BACK OFF AND STOP PUSHING ME to be "in love" with him!!!!<P>The more he pushes- the more I run away...it is SO MUCH a role reversal- I feel that old rebellious spirit just rise up in my body when he starts pushing on my about things, quizzing me, LETTING HIMSELF INTO THE APARTMENT without knocking.....he is trying to put this together himself- and the more he tries, the more I'm heading OUT!!!<P>You have given me very good advice, and I appreciate that you took the time to spend on me...<P>I think maybe I will come back here and vent/smile/and hopefully someday be an encourager...(I was getting very discouraged this morning by the answers to my post)...<P>Thanks so much!! and did you notice? I breathed THREE times during this <BR>LOL<BR>TLFM<P>

{{{{{TLFM}}}}}

Hi Waiting_For_Her <P>I'm doing much better- kind of tired of the roller coaster ya know???? Where you yelling at me in exasperation with that last post? Or not sure what you wanted to say? hehe<P>hehehe- you should change your handle to "Living_For_Me" now LOL<P>TLFM<BR>

tlfm,<P>Oh gee, my first thought was that what I wrote had the opposite effect of what I was trying to say. But then I got to thinking about it......<P>When I first started realizing what my problems are, it was a real downer for me too. How did I let myself get so screwed up? Why?<P>But I think everyone is pulling together to give you the same answer ---- stop, and take care of yourself first.<P><BR>H driving you batty? There are some things you can do to ease the problems:<P>E-mail: some e-mail programs have 'filters'. You can set up a mailbox just for him and filter all his mail over to there and away from the mail that you want to deal with. Then, when you're ready, you can go deal with his mail. You could also change addresses.<P>Phone: answering machine and caller ID. Scan calls, place a block on his number, don't answer when his number calls. You could also get an unlisted number (just make sure you are paying the bills).<P>Mail: get a P.O. Box --- for that bill for the unlisted phone number.<P>Door: I take it that you are renting and both of you are named on the lease. Talk to your landlord and maybe an attorney before doing this..... I'm wondering if you could rekey the locks and not give him a key. Or, if the problem is with him walking in while you are there, put in a bolt that can only be worked from the inside.<P>Other ideas --- <BR>- request to communicate through letters and cards. Snail mail. No phone calls. You may want to do this through a formal letter; maybe certified mail? And keep a copy of it for yourself.<BR>- establish 'business hours' for yourself.<BR>- request that he start seeing a counselor --- if only to help him handle his own problems and for the sake of the children.<BR>- get yourself in to see a counselor --- for you.<BR>- if he would like to call to tell the kids goodnight, establish a standard time when this should be done.<BR>- start some sort of visitation schedule; shared parenting responsibilities. Sounds like you have the kids all the time. Find out what standard visitation is like in your state. If he's keeping the kids part of the time, that'll give you some time to go out and rediscover yourself.<BR>- you might want to find that book with the list -- "Codependent No More: how to stop controlling others and start caring for yourself" by Melody Beattie. I got it at a bookstore in a mall for @ $15. There's also Codependents Anon. (CoDA). But I don't agree with everything Beattie is saying, so I know that I won't agree with CoDA.<P>Friends, the church people ----- Did you reach out to any of them to let them know you needed help? That's one thing I've found out from working with volunteers: There's a lot of people out there who are willing to help, but they need a bit of ego stroking.....they want to be asked, to feel needed. If you are used to doing everything yourself, then it may be difficult for you to ask for help.<P>Oh --- And Harley isn't too fond of this codependency stuff either. Check out his article, "How the Co-Dependency Movement is Ruining Marriages."<P>Basically what he says is that in marriage there should be some co-dependency. That it's natural and healthy. ---- I actually agree with him on that.<P>But it's not healthy when it gets out of balance, when the spouses aren't leaning on each other, or one is leaning much more than the other.<P>I'm going to put forward something that may sound silly to you, but this one (again) comes from my own relationship ---<BR>You say that you were doing everything. Could your H have seen that you had everything well in hand and feel that he wasn't needed? That you kept him around just for the money and the sex? Could you have intimidated him? That maybe he wanted to feel needed and wanted in return? And finally he now has a chance to 'prove' something to you? To earn your validation and recognition? That he is pursuing you because he wants you to say that you need him?<P>Just thought I'd throw a wrench into the gears....<P>~Amy

Hi Too Late,<P>I will also echo Gnome - I for one think you would be perfectly justified to divorce. I don't think you are obligated under any circumstance to stay in this relationship. Selfish? Absolutely not. Your H has the problem with selfishness, thats what adultery is.<P>BUT... <P>You might want to do what Amy said, and work on yourself. Wait 6 months before making any life altering decisions. Let some of the shock wear off. Co-dependent? Probably, he sounds like he has a sexual addiction. There are some of men who are recovery sexual addicts over the GQ board, you might want to post over there and ask for some insight.<P>Here's a link that I found EXTREMELY helpful in determining my H's possible sexual addiction to pornography.<BR> <A HREF="http://www.ncsac.org/article.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ncsac.org/article.htm</A> <P>In 6 months, after working on your own issues, then make a decision about divorce.<P>Of course you belong here...you are hurt and angry and wanting to run very far away, but you were hoping that we would have something wonderful to tell you that would make it go away and give you your happy marriage back....<P>We can't do that, but we sure do understand where you are, and even if you do decide to divorce, you still belong. I'm divorcing my husband, and I'm here, and I belong. <P>If your H really wants your marriage back....have him get Surviving an Affair by Dr. Harley and let him do the work. Tell him to go into counseling with Steve Harley ~ Steve will tell you flat out when and IF it's safe to reenter a relationship with your husband.<P>Steve worked with both me and my husband, and in the end, recommended that I file for divorce. You can trust Steve Harley to be extremely realistic about your chances of success in a reconciliation. This IS Marriage Builders, but it does not mean that even the Harley's believe all marriages can or should be saved. They simply try to save the ones that can be.<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Just seemed like the thing to do at the time.

If I can remember correctly there is a saying that goes something like this:Christians are the only army that shoot their wounded.(you get the idea). I'm sorry I don't have any advice for you except: don't leave here,hang around awhile. There are a lot of people here with excellant advice that you just haven't heard from yet. I've thought a lot about this in recent months and I don't think I could handle affairs.Even with being a Christian I think if my husband were to have affairs that would be the death knoll of our marriage. This wasn't bible thumping was it???