I while back when I was for an appointment to see my counselor he told me something that I will never forget. He says that any man that gets involved with a woman that has been in an abusive relationship is going most likely to end up an abuser himself. His reasoning being that the woman in almost all cases incites the violence that the man ultimately releases. She finds ways to pick at and upset him and make him so frustrated and upset, that the only way for him to put and end to it is to use his superior physical strength. I believe very much what he says - my wife came from an abusive 1st marriage and I felt sorry for her (poor thing). I thought all she needed to see was how different and gentle and loving I was. I have never abused her - but many times I have been very tempted to - she just drives me to that point. Be careful guys - don't feel too sorry for those women that scream "abuse" . At least stay clear of them - you're asking for trouble - in many ways!

The abused become abusers.<P>People who are hurt ... go on to hurt others. <P>That's why it's called a cycle of abuse. <P>The abused ... learn from the abusers how to control others. And not the good ways. And sometimes the abused are taught that the only way attention comes to them is in the form of abuse. <P>That doesn't mean that in bonding with a person who has been abused we will inevitably be driven to abuse ourselves. Some people can't do that. Some people won't do that. Either because it isn't in them, or because they catch and stop the behaviors that potentially provoke abusive behavior. <P>That said, if you do get involved with a formerly abused person, it's time to examine yourself to see if you're sophisticated enough and strong enough. <P>The more perplexing case is when you learn about the abuse long after you're already committed. Is it the abused person's fault they weren't upfront with you? Who wants to talk about something really grim that happened to them? I think when that disclosure comes late, you're still under an obligation to do your darndest to handle it. But if in the end you can't handle it, who can blame you?

Wow! I'm really sorry about what you're going thru but I have to disagree with some of the things that your counselor has told you.<P>First, let me say that I was physically abused by my ex for 10 1/2 years. He was an extremely cruel man. He beat me in front of my children. There were times I had to get between him and our oldest son who was only 9 at the time. <P>What woman in her right mind, who has been abused before would want another man to do the same?? NOT ME!! I think I've had my share of black eyes and bloody lips. Not to mention the bruises. I can't believe that this would be true of most women. <P>Just because I went thru this, does that mean men should stay away from me for the rest of my life?? Gee...I hope not! <P>Mitzi

<BR>Oh, I'd like to give that counselor a piece of my mind!!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR><B>He says that any man that gets involved with a woman that has been in an abusive relationship is going most likely to end up an abuser himself. His reasoning being that the woman in almost all cases incites the violence that the man ultimately releases.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So once again, the victim is to blame. Just like women who get raped are 'asking for it' ... makes me want to PUKE!<P>Yes, some women who end up in abusive relationships were abused as children and subconsiously seek familiar qualities in a man as their childhood 'role model' ... it's very sad. Many of these women will end up in one abusive relationship after another.<P>SOME of us were never abused as children, and have been told by the abuser that WE are the reason they become abusive, diminishing our self-esteem and keeping us under their control. SOME of us seek counseling and work to regain our lives without abuse. Funny, NONE of my counselors have even hinted around that I might have INCITED my STBX ... he is a textbook control freak abusive **** and I had NOTHING to do with that!!<P><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Be careful guys - don't feel too sorry for those women that scream "abuse" . At least stay clear of them - you're asking for trouble - in many ways!</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Oh, that's what abused women need, more belittling and isolation. Now I get it.<P>

What kind of counselor was this? <P>This was a licensed therapist??? <P>I'd like to know the answers to these questions before I say anything.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sisyphus:<BR><B>The abused become abusers.<BR>People who are hurt ... go on to hurt others. <BR>The abused ... learn from the abusers how to control others. And not the good ways.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OR, you could say that the abused can learn how NOT to treat others. How NOT to hurt others. It takes a huge effort to break a cycle. I don't think it's fair to say that the abused become abusers ... they can choose NOT to. I think the abused have paid enough without stereotyping them as abusers-in-training.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR><B>The more perplexing case is when you learn about the abuse long after you're already committed. Is it the abused person's fault they weren't upfront with you? Who wants to talk about something really grim that happened to them? I think when that disclosure comes late, you're still under an obligation to do your darndest to handle it. But if in the end you can't handle it, who can blame you? </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>When is a good time to bring up to your significant other that your ex was abusive? The last thing I need is someone who thinks they can ride in on their white horse and rescue me. Even worse, someone who would use that knowledge to manipulate another. I am very guarded with what I tell my current partner about my STBX. I don't want his pity, and I don't want him to know my weaknesses. Sure, someday I will tell him more, if this relationship continues ... but how much do we need to tell a S.O. about our past relationships? My STBX used everything I told him as ammo against me. Expert manipulator. Made me regret every little thing I opened up about. Trust is a HUGE issue for me now.

T-L-C....you needn't be offended for all of us, I can take up some of that, if you don't mind too much. First of all, I AM SORRY THAT YOU WENT/ARE GOING THROUGH THAT. I have no idea of that, from my FOO, or my marriage, so I cannot imagine your particular hell, and I am glad that I can't.<P>We are in a VERY DANGEROUS place in a society that can find a reason to justify pain of this magnitude, and turn around and condemn other gov'ts for not being humanitarian. Those theories are an attempt to find causation, NOT EXONERATE. Understand that the ONLY reason to collect that kind of data is to further the research to make the PERPETRATOR disappear....even if what you say is 100% true...which c'mon, do you REALLY BELIEVE THAT?...it is STILL THE ABUSER WHO SHOULDERS 100% of the culpability...DRIVEN TO IT? Get a grip! No one is EVER driven anywhere that they wouldn't go anyway, and that is what happens...are we trying to right the past here, or just ruin the victim's future, or what?<P>GUYS...please listen...My wife left me, too. I am hurt, and resentment comes too easily for me. She is in a funky place, but she hurts, too. I wish that it were different, but I have some blame...she does, too. That's it...that's all there is to it. Neither of us are THAT defective, but the relationship got into a place where we could not return from. You are hurting people who have already been hurt enough, don't go there, please. You may have been wronged, but don't go taking every quack's opinion that makes you feel better about yourself. That just makes it all worse.<P>I don't wish to offend, but I have to speak my peace, too. Have a better day.

I don't that is true. I am sure that your counclor has probably seen many cases where this is the set pattern, but I don't think that it is the standard, or if it is, it doesn't have to be.<P>I will admit, and have before, that I was physically and verbally abused by my H. Did I EVER ask for it? <B>NO!</B> Did I EVER want it <B>NO!</B> I will admit that many times during a verbal arguement, I would try to walk away until it was over and he was calm again, but he would grab my arm to stop me, I admit that I would physically push him away from me and tell him not to touch me. I will also admit that at times during our arguements, I would verbally push him and say things that I never meant just to get his goat. We both did, I did not do it alone. But I won't do it again. And I admit that after him hitting me, calling me such vulgar terms, and making me feel physically traped so that I could not walk away, that I started to strike back out too. I admit to having a severe temper, which I 99.9% of the time I keep in check. I will also admit that I <B>HATED</B> and still do hate that old part of me. Will I ever allow myself to come into such a situation again? <B>NO!</B> No man, woman, or child deserves that! When all this whole horrible disengeration of my marriage started, I took action on me. For me. I didn't want to be that person anymore.<P>Counsling on my end. The knowlege that no one deserves to be hit. Realizing what a horrible situation I had been in and that not all men are like that, and that not all relationships have violence in them. My H refused counsling of any sorts! He will never go, although I asked him, begged him at times even, to go. The thought of verbally or physically striking out at someone that I <B>love</B> and care about makes me physically sick.<P>Since that time.... I have been fortunate enough that I have only found myself in one situation where both of us were angry at each other (not with my H but with a male friend). We both respected each other's personal physical space and boundaries. We both kept check of our tempers, and we both worked it out without the threat or use of violence or verbal nasties towards each other. That is the way that it is supposed to happen. Neither of us felt threatened. And looking back on it, even though I was angry, he was angry, we both handled it the way that we all should handle it. <P>I think that the cycle of abuse is stoppable. I think that we each have the power inside of us to stop it. If we choose to take the steps in each of our lives to stop it, is another story all toghether. Both the abuser and abused need counsling and they need help. <P>I will say that I was offended a bit when you said "Be careful guys - don't feel too sorry for those women that scream "abuse" . At least stay clear of them - you're asking for trouble - in many ways!" <P>I don't scream abuse, although it did happen to me. And stay clear of me because of what someone else did to me? Nothing personal, and it even took me some time to admit this, but <B>I am a GOOD person.</B> I have so many things in which to offer someone in a relationship. None of those things is the feeling that violence is the only means. And for those of <B>you</B> who feel like hitting someone because of an arguement or thinking that you could be pushed to such an extreeme because of what someone says to you... <B>you</B> are the ones that <B>I</B> feel sorry for, and <B>you</B> are the ones <B>I</B> will be sure to stay clear of! I am sorry for you that you have felt tempted to hit your wife. I am sorry for you that you feel she can push you to such an extreeme. I am glad that you did not subcome to those feelings. <P>As for feeling sorry for me, I hope that you don't. I am not saying that I deserved it in any way, but I don't want pity. I don't need pity. Yes, it was a horrible thing that happened in my life for 10 years, but I am so much stonger now and so much a better person. I don't now and never will let it control me or continue to be a part of me. It is a part of my past, but not a part of me. And it never will be....<P><p>[This message has been edited by JavaAllNightLong (edited June 21, 2001).]

I asked those questions, and decided, no, I don't care what the credentials are of this man who calls himself a therapist. <P>I was going to cut and paste each line, because this post is filled with hate toward women, and specifically women who have been abused. <P>Why bother trying to defend line by line?<P>I am horrified that you would:<BR><UL TYPE=SQUARE><BR>Believe this<BR>Live this<BR>Promote this<BR>Write this<BR></UL><P>Blame the victim, blame the victim. It makes me SICK and ANGRY -- but I'll tell you what -- it won't make me kick the cat or yell at my H or do anything to hurt anyone, because, **ta da** I CHOOSE not to abuse!<BR>

There are victims I <I>will</I> blame. Each of us has autonomy. There is a point where a rational person removes themselves from a situation. If something fast and unexpected happens, the victim can't be blamed. If something ratchets up very subtly, it's hard to blame the victim. But some people, by virtue of their failure to take their share of responsibility, lose the right to call themselves victims. It's not a slam against everyone who has ever been victimized. It's just truth; and truth isn't always welcome.

Being a creative thinker, may I possibly put a different spin on it. <P>Children in the custody of one parent will almost invariably try to push that parent to the edge. To test them and try them, to see if they're really to be trusted. Could women who have not had adequate counseling to deal with their hurt, anger, and fear have this response?<P>Or might they have some sort of "bitterroots expectation" and choose men with a predisposition to this behavior?<P>As a woman who had a verbally/emotionally husband, I think I may have developed a more confrontational attitude where he is concerned. But I would hope that all that money I've spent on my counselors would not be wasted and that it would not be transferred to another target.<P>No matter what the origin, there is only one person responsible for an individual's behavior and that is the individual in question. No one can make you hit them. No one. That is your choice. As is walking off.<p>[This message has been edited by cinderella (edited June 22, 2001).]

Ya know, I thought about this all day yesterday and was pretty angry when I got home from work last night. I guess it's a good thing that we had a storm and my electric was off so I couldn't reply.<P>When someone is abused they feel like there is something wrong with them. The last thing we need is supposed counselors making comments about how we "make" someone abuse us. As some have already said...blame the victim. Women who are abused suffer from low self-esteem. Most of the time we don't leave out of fear. Fear of not being able to make it on our own. Fear of what people will think of us.<P>I know, it sounds stupid, but I never wanted anyone to know about it. I was afraid they would think that I was a failure and didn't know how to help my ex be happy. And also that I would be somehow blamed for it. And no, I wasn't to blame. I may not have been perfect but in no way did I incite violence from my ex. Unless of course, waking him to go to work or saying good morning to him was a good reason to get hit. <P>Mitzi

rich1959 - I have been in a verbally abusive relationship for the past 17 years. I never have provoked him into being abusive - that's his shortcoming, not mine. I do not believe what this counselor says. I am loving, forgiving, gentle, love people, and love life. I don't go looking for fights. I would truly LOVE to be in a healthy relationship where I can give my love and have it returned in kind. Being where I've been for the past 17 years has not made me bitter towards men. I know in my heart that there are healthy people out there to share life with. I say all this to tell you I stronly disagree with this counselors stereotypical viewpoint.<P>Why would someone cry abuse when it's not happening? Women or men that are in an abusive relationship are really there. It's how we resolve it that matters. If you are provoked to that much anger by someone else, maybe you need to look inside for the answer to why.<P>Just some thoughts.<P>Cagney<P>

Ok, never having been in an abusive relationship and only having dealt with addiction, my perspective is not the same as others here, but what your counselor says sounds like it 1)is grounded in a very limited scope of experience: maybe he has only encountered women involved in multiple abusive relationships, in which case, get a second opinion 2) he really believes this despite evidence to the contrary, again get a different counselor or 3) you misunderstood him: are you using his words to justify your own predilection to violence? I accept the fact that some women who have low self esteem or have been abused in the past may be more accepting of this behavior and therefore might seek out patterns. Same with addictions and codependents. Maybe that is how he is generating his statistics. However, to believe that a woman incites "justifiable" abuse is ludicrous. I would look into how "loving and gentle" you really are if you are provoked to anger so easily.

Rich,<P>I hope you can see from the replies you got that your counselor is not too reliable. Please really read everything on this thread and think about getting another counselor! <P>Mitzi

Sisyphus,<P>I went back and re-read your reply. <P>Ya know, I wouldn't say that any woman/man who is being abused is very sane or rational. I know that sometimes, after my ex had hit me, he would tell me that it was my fault. I either pushed him or I let him. I began to believe him. I believed him for a long time. I also thought about killing him. The thoughts of a rational or sane person?? Nope, I was completely irrational when I had those thoughts. I didn't think of consequences or anything like that. I only thought of getting rid of him and being safe. Also of keeping my children safe. <P>There were a couple of incidences that I'm not proud of where I hit my ex. One time after he had beaten my face and body until it was severely bruised, I hit him in the mouth. I busted his lip pretty good. It was the only way I could get him off of me. He had been punching me and slapping me for 20 minutes or more...non-stop. I had to do something. And the shock of me hitting him back, stopped him. I did it to possibly save my own life. <P>So, am I rational? Yes I am, without a doubt. Am I sane? Yes! Was I a victim? Yes. <P>Mitzi <BR>

Gee whiz Mitz, boy do I agree...<P>One time, *my* time that I am ashamed of... David was sticking up for OW#2, and I kept in his face about her, over and over and over, I wouldn't stop... I finally hissed at him - "Protecting your precious, precious Kara" with as much hate as I had in me...my mistake... because he hit me in the mouth and yelled at me to shut up.<P>Now, I shouldn't have pushed him to the brink... I KNEW I was doing it... I should have known better...<P>Was I a victim? Yes. Am I now? NO!!!!! Abuse is real... this thread is so frustrating.

Ya know, Sheryl,<P>I never provoked my ex. I tried to stay away from him when he was angry. I used Plan A before I even knew what it was. I tried to be a perfect wife (it didn't work). I cooked food that he liked, I did almost everything for him. I guess you could say I was EXTREMELY co-dependent! LOL LOL I gave up friends cause he didn't like them or because he thought they put too many "ideas" into my head. I missed a lot of family functions because he didn't "feel comfortable" around them. Actually it was because my family reunions weren't held at bars and they didn't drink all day. <P>And ya know what else? If he hadn't left, I know that I would still be with him. I hadn't reached that point where I had had enough. I don't know if I would have ever gotten to that point without being on my own and finding out that life can be pretty damn good!!<P>Mitzi