I heard some disturbing news yesterday from two women I work with. I think they hadn't told me before for fear of hurting my feelings. They had both talked to OW's MIL who had told them that OW's daughter has been using her dolls, bumping them together to represent sex, and saying, "This is what Mommy and (my H) do." I don't think MIL has told OW's H. He's almost completed 5 years probation without a violation, but, even though he's generally an easy going guy, he can be hot-headed and she may be afraid he'd blow it. Their family is not the type to go to authorities about anything because all have had trouble with the law.<P>I don't know what to do with this information. I am so upset for this little girl knowing what she's being subjected to. I could call her dad and tell him he needs to protect her and that he needs to be there for her so getting angry and possibly violent would only make matters worse for her. Or, I could tell OW's mother. She has nothing to do with OW or my H (who's her age) and may only see her granddaughter with her SIL (OW's H).<P>OW is a former employee so I know her H, vaguely, and have told him before that I thought he should keep his D away from OW and my H because they're using IV drugs, but I didn't realize they were having sex in front of her. I don't know OW's mother, her phone is unlisted, but I know where she works.<P>Please help. I am praying for the little girl, but I hate to leave an innocent child in such a compromising situation when she has no choice in the matter.

I would never presume to 'tell' you what to do, I'm sure that your experience has told you about this. All I want to do is say that I am actively looking for something to interject into XW and OM's perfect little world, so I KNOW IT IS WRONG. You came by this information because you are seeking it. The responsibility is NOT yours, but belongs to the two women you work with, and OWs MIL. That garbage about probation is an EXCUSE. This is not your responsibility, and THEY ARE ALL THREE WRONG FOR PUTTING IT ON YOU. They are playing you...they want you to react...I would not, if I were you. I would even doubt a third hand story's truth. It may even have been misunderstood. You don't need much of a push right now, you are ready to get in there and fight. Watch yourself. Take care, and make those two go BACK to OWs MIL, and HAVE HER TAKE CARE OF IT...what kind of Grandma let's a child go through that, and then asks the OTHER victim to make it right?<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited June 21, 2001).]

waiting, I hear what you're saying. I do think I was told because maybe they thought I'd do something when they didn't feel it was their place.<P>I don't doubt this story. H is drinking and using IV speed and seems to be obsessed with sex. He told my 17 yr. old niece and her boyfriend about explicit sexual acts he wanted to perform with OW involving 2 other men and which orifice was reserved for him. I know this is true because during the brief time he came home, he was constantly talking about this fantasy with me. <P>OW's D demonstrates this behavior in the bathtub and I also know H and OW are obsessed with bathtubs because I stumbled in on them in the bathtub together. We also have a hottub and H is really into sex in there. He kicked me and the kids out and moved OW in here for 2 weeks before I got a restraining order and got back in the house.<P>Knowing that OW's H and his M won't do anything leaves me knowing what's happening to this little girl and not doing anything about it.

Anonymously call child protective services?

As usual Br has the answer that satisfies all of the requirements I would have. Good job, there.<P>I hadn't doubted it, either, I just don't want you to get involved with the whole OW/(ewwww, I don't even WANT to know) scenario. You see, I obsess about my XW and her OM...she lives a block away, and I have to go out of my way to avoid going by her place. Even if I do, I ALWAYS look to see who's there, and he was there at 2:00AM, so...great for them, I guess. It doesn't help that they are all friends...although most are former at this point.<P>On the other hand, my imagined worst is probably worse than reality, and certainly NOWHERE near yours. Let's see...IV drugs...casual sex with multiple partners at the same time, sodomy....hmmmm, not wanting HIV, or anything, are they? Seriously, have YOU been tested recently? Be careful, please, they are being irresponsible enough for a medium sized town, and you are NOT far removed from it. You are already paying too much, time to stop.<BR>BTW, just who's 'place' would it be, then? Yours? No, I don't think so. The implication, IMHO, is that you are responsible for H's and OW's actions. Am I the only one that thinks that is wrong? What are they saying by taking THAT position? That you are controlling H/OW, or owe society an extra debt, because they don't pay theirs? I would be glad to set ALL of them straight on that, and I don't EVEN care what that says about me. Do not let them validate any compulsion you may feel to act on this because of your OR with H. Whatever...aren't these the same people who tell you that H is deplorable, and that you are better off? Aren't they? Shouldn't that cause them to support YOU in TANGIBLE ways? See, they want you to stand against H/OW, you are ALREADY doing that. Anything more is over the line, and if H ever comes out of the fog, and gets care for his addictions, he will resent you for that. It will drive him further into it. People on the outside CAN'T understand that for some reason. For me, I had to prove that to myself, but NOW I KNOW. People hate and fear divorce SO MUCH that I get a lot of suggestions to be acerbic, vindictive, etc., and to drive it further into the ground. In my case, this is not only counterproductive, but simply childish, and mean. I can't be her friend NOW, she's pushed it too far, and I'm hurt. She doesn't understand what she has done, because she has an R with OM, and I've got bills, and the kids most of the time, and all of the money responsibilities for the kids. Am I supposed to give the wake up calls here? I'm the VERY LAST PERSON ON EARTH ABLE TO DO THAT. They BOTH know me very well...I am an honorable man, and yet they chose to [whatever...it ain't good], and leave me here with the tough stuff, like comforting a miserable, beautiful 6 year old. They aren't performing for him, but 75% are sophistocated enough to know what sleeping over is, and when it happens like this, their view of things gets well, mutilated, and they become stunted emotionally, etc. Guess who gets to fix that, too?<BR>God bless and protect you.<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited June 21, 2001).]

waiting, I agree with you more as time goes by. In reality, I think it really hurt my feelings, imagining H and OW having sex with such abandon. I do feel for the child, and I'm praying for her. But, your right. There are many people closer to the situation who should be taking responsibility and all of them would resent me if I get involved. Thanks.

Um, worrying about who is doing what and who's job it is to interfere is really kinda silly. Sorry waiting, while what you are saying might be valid, none of it matters.<P>EVERYONE involved is an adult and is capable of making choices, except one person.<P>The child. <P>The child is being exposed to sex (a form of sexual abuse) and drugs, alcohol, and lord knows what else. The child is being hurt by adult choices, and has no power of her own.<P>Am I right in understanding LetsTry that you have decided not to interfere because people might resent your interference in behalf of a child?<P>Honestly, nothing else matters - your hurt, their resentment, anyone else's opinion.<P>A child is being hurt. And doing nothing makes you an accomplice.<P>If you call child protective services, someone will investigate. The child at least deserves that.

BrambleRose, Thanks for your advice. I will think hard about it and pray about it. <P>I hear my H's angry, hostile, critical voice demeaning me for meddling and causing trouble. I don't really care what the rest of her (the child's) family think of me, but my H is being so oppositional about everything I do and blaming me for everything that's happened to him, almost all of which he's done to himself. And CPS in this state is pretty worthless in my experience. If there are no bruises or broken bones they really aren't interested.<P>You support my original feeling about this, but I'm so self-critical that I'm being vindictive and relying only on hearsay, though as I described, H's behavior has been very inappropriate in the situations I described as well as several others with female employees. And these are just the ones I know of. <P>I really respect your advice, so I will definitely reconsider.

Hi LetsTry,<P>Why are you giving your very sick H so much power over your life still? Of course he's going to say things like that. He's a SICK person.<P>Sick people say, think and do sick things.<P>Letting a sick person's sick opinion guide your actions is a rather sick thing to do, dontcha think?<P>Do you have an Al-Anon sponsor yet? <P>If you do, this is definitely something to talk to your sponsor about. <P>As for CPS being worthless ~ Maybe it is, maybe it's not. The OUTCOME of your report to CPS is out of your control. You can only do what is yours to do, and do it well. Leave the rest to God.<P>I'll only respond with what my sponsor says to me when I am making excuses:<P><I>There are a thousand excuses, but only one reason.</I><P>

BrambleRose, Would you be my sponsor? Just kidding, but I would ask you if you were in my Al-Anon group since you're very straightforward and seem to have a good program. I did ask someone to be my sponsor yesterday. She told me to read all the stuff in ODAT and Courage to Change about sponsorship.<P>Thanks again for the advice. I have taken my H's verbal abuse for so long that it's hard even to speak without judging my words by whether they might upset him or not. Yes this is sick behavior. I still feel very hurt by the way he has treated me and the things he has said and continues to say to me and about me. <P>I know it's sick, but I feel like I have PTSD, or something. I lock all my doors (live out in the country and never did before) jump at sounds, experience a low level of anxiety at all times, can't eat, can't sleep very well, can't concentrate, obsess about everything, feel a need to talk constantly about my pain. I dreamt last night that my husband held me captive in the back seat of a car and started shooting me from the front seat with tiny bullets so he could torture me and I'd die slowly. I cried, "What did I do?" and he answered with intense rage and hatred, "You lied to me." I started to protest and woke up. <P>It's all sick. I don't want to be this way anymore. I'm praying about it, going to all the Al-Anon meetings I can, reading Al-Anon literature every day, calling people in Al-Anon, posting here, etc., etc. And I'm already on an antidepressant.<P>

LetSTry,<P>BrambleRose is right on this one. It is the responsibility of every adult who knows what is going on to help this poor child. Do you know that in most states, that if an adult knows of an abusive situation and does nothing to protect the child, the adult is considered part of the crime?<P>I would venture to say that if they are doing drug and having sex, especially group sex, in front of the child it will not be long before the child is raped.<P>I'm sorry, but who give a hoot what your husband says. You will let a child be abused because you are afraid that he might get angry at you?<P>If you call child protective services, you can place a report anonymously. Please tell about the drugs and the sex. The OW and WS will never know who made the report. Child protective services will then go out to the house and investigate. <P>I have a neighbor who’s spending the next 7 years in jail because his 4 year old daughter walked in on him and his girlfriend going at it. Instead of stopping and taking care of his daughter, he continued have sex with the girl watching for half an hour or so. The daughter told someone at preschool about it.<P>Z<BR><P>------------------<BR>He loves not who does not show love.<BR>----William Shakespeare

BrambleRose is right! you can call child protection services without anyone knowing you did. No one has to know. look in the government pages of your phone book,in our area they are the blue pages. that child needs protection. Don't tell anyone and no one will know you called. For myself I wouldn't care who knew I called. Please call...

LST:<P>There's only one answer that you'll be able to live with yourself for making: Call child protective services ASAP. Screw what other people think! These's just too many damaged people in this world (& on this board) who were emotionally, sexually, or physically abused as children -- where other adults (& parents) KNEW but were too weak and self-absorbed to do anything about it. <P>Good Luck! Keith

Let me try that again. First of all, I am not saying don't help, what I am saying is that it is not her responsibility, no matter how you view it. This is an attempt to manipulate ALREADY. My point being that Grandma discovered it, and is too CS to do anything. The two 'friends' also have knowledge, but choose to manipiluate her, as well. This is tugging at your morality, so you want to jump on the do the right thing bandwagon. THAT IS A MISTAKE! Sure, you want to at least seem like you are taking the high road here, that's true enough, but why not ACTUALLY take it? Tell the two friends to make the call...or to tell Grandma to be responsible. The LAST resort is to make the call yourself. This is the very definition of manipulation, but not by H, by the irresponsibility of his actions. That is irrelevant, you've already wasted more time/energy on it, so there you have it.<P>My only motivation in posting here in the first place was to point out that ANY response from you with respect to them is to be avoided like the plague. This is true regardless. If you want to end the marriage, then it is in your best interest to detatch completely, and move on. If you hold hopes for a reconciliation, then you need to avoid interfering with his free choice that he is displaying, and let the A die of its own accord. Reaction of any kind, IMO, is letting H have power over you. Disgust is a reaction.<BR>

Probably everyone that responded is right to a degree. I agree that the Grandmother had the original responsibility to make that call. She didn't so the 4 year old child must suffer? Then the other 2 ladies that were discussing the situation were next in line of responsibility. They didn't call either as far as we know. Someone is probably orchastrating this whole scenerio. But does that mean this child must suffer? What would you do if it were a neighbors child? These people that are trying to get a reaction out of you do not have to know if you made any phone calls. I believe you can disassociate yourself from the fact that your ex is somehow in involved in this. Once you've made that call you do not have to think about it again. All of us can give you advice till your eyes cross but you will have to be the one to make the judgement call. If I knew who it was I would make the call. I've done that before. And there were no repercussions.