Just a few unanswered questions that basically say what's going on in the relationship with my ex. No matter that we have a child together. <BR> <BR>How can.......<BR>a person who says she loves you so completely just a few years ago now treat you with such utter hatred and contempt?<P>a person who says that she wants to be on her own hook up with another man justs days after she moves out?<P>a person continue to carry on as though we never had a marriage to begin with?<P>a person just give little regard to the results the above actions are having on our daughter?<P>a person change so drastically from one that you adored not long ago to someone who you even dread to see anymore simply because you know that although this person looks and sounds just like the person you fell in love with it simply isn't her anymore? <P>*********************** sigh ************************<P>yes I'm baffled, and each time she does something out of spite or hatred for me it hurts. I don't understand. I've done nothing yet I get the brunt of it all. Some say it's guilt, but I'm not so sure she's even capable of that. Do these people ever snap out of it? I don't want to be her friend but I'd at least like to be treated with the respect that I deserve simply for the fact that I am the father of our child. You'd think that she could at least remember that at one time she did care about what happened to me but I am absolutely convinced that she'd be the first one to dance on my grave. After a year and a half of this nonsense I believe a little civility is in order don't you? So how do I get that to register through her bitterness? Just ranting again, felt it was due. I will perservere. Jax

Jax,<P>EXACT same situation here.<P>Here's what I figure. She has convinced herself that what she is doing is absolutely right; therefore, her being with you must have been absolutely wrong. She has thrown all of her energy into the OM to keep what she has. (face it, she must have been cheating on you) Additionally, she doesn't want to fail at what she has done; therefore, she tries even harder to keep the relationship together with the OM than with you. Failure of this relationship will mean that she is wrong and nobody wants to be proved wrong, especially when they have an affair and continue it, leave a loving spouse, and destroy their child's family. Right now, it all feels so right; therefore, she thinks your daughter will be happier because she is happier.<P>Be happy that you do everything you can to be civil. This can only benefit your daughter. Your daughter will see in time who the better parent is. I think waiting_for_her is right when he says that the true test is the divorce. So far it looks like you are passing the test with flying colors. Your XW is still failing.<P>A year and a half, eh? I was hope my nightmare ends sooner. I think (might be totally wrong) that when (if) my XW's relationship with the OM fails, she will come back to earth and snap out of it. It is only when she hits rock bottom that she will realize that I am really a nice guy and it is okay to have civil relations with me.<P>Until your XW's relationship ends with the OM, I don't think anything will change with her. She is still in fantasyland.<P>Kevin<P>

Jax,<P>Out of curiosity here, have you had a simple heart-to-heart discussion with your ex where you have told her how you feel and how you think that her actions are damaging to your daughter? My ex and I did not have any children together so I am only speaking from assumptions, but I just can't imagine how a parent could take part in such actions which would be damaging to thier own child. I know it happens frequently, but I just don't get it.<P>My best advice would be to just keep trying to appeal to her sense of parental obligation out of concern and respect for your daughter. Maybe you can guilt her into being a civil and respectful adult?

Once an OP comes into the picture, nothing is more important. The children are WAY down on their list of priorities.<P>Before my H's affair, before his depession, NOTHING was more important to him than his family. There is not a doubt in my mind about that. Even when I have doubts that he ever loved me (although even he admitted that he "probably" did), I have no doubts that he adored his children. <P>Within a short time after he moved out, he said that he would do whatever was necessary to "maintain the atmosphere" in the OW's home. Now the children are allowed to visit him one day a month. <P>It has been over two years for me, and it has not gotten any better.

Incredible how you think you know someone especially after spending so much time with them. In short, I've done the heart to heart talk and that failed miserably, next it was the guilt trip that too failed to get results in fact the only results I did get was a nasty e-mail stating how advanced my dementia had become and to seek help and if I didn't stop she would file a restraining order against me, truth hurts. After thirteen years together she had decided that she never loved me to begin with so there was nothing to talk about. Life goes on.........Jax.

Jax,<P>I had these questions go through my mind...It ate my lunch!! Then I allowed myself to realise that they would never get answered...Then I got to the point that I didn't care if the got answered...<P>Keep walking through this...Surrender to fact that she will never get honest and remember you will be ok...<P>Bill

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jax:<BR><B>Just a few unanswered questions that basically say what's going on in the relationship with my ex. No matter that we have a child together. <BR> <BR>How can.......<BR>a person who says she loves you so completely just a few years ago now treat you with such utter hatred and contempt?<P>a person who says that she wants to be on her own hook up with another man justs days after she moves out?<P>a person continue to carry on as though we never had a marriage to begin with?<P>a person just give little regard to the results the above actions are having on our daughter?<P>a person change so drastically from one that you adored not long ago to someone who you even dread to see anymore simply because you know that although this person looks and sounds just like the person you fell in love with it simply isn't her anymore?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Same list, reverse gender.<P>I asked him if we could have a Policy of Joint Agreement where our daughter is conerned. He wouldn't even hear of it.<P>Dispite my best arguments that I could make for him to not take our daughter around the OW and for him to keep our daughter in her current daycare during her one month of visitation with him (starting at the end of this week).....He refused to listen and insisted on doing things his way.<P>Thank heavens for the temprary orders....that is the only thing my daughter right now.<P>He's not the man I married. And I don't like the person he's become.<P>~Amy<BR>

Jax,<BR>I wondered about many of the same things that you have. My exH wanted the divorce, did not want to even try counseling and got married to the OW right after our divorce was final. However, he has continued to display anger towards me all throughout the divorce process and even now after his marriage.<P>I recently asked a psychiatrist why he persists in being so angry with me and the good doctor replied that this anger is a way for my exH to disengage from me. It is easier to disengage from someone when you are angry then when you are being nice. I also feel it prevents him from looking at his own guilt and makes it easier for him not to be accountable for his bad behavior and the way in which he ended our marriage.<P>Hope this helps you. I know it gave me some closure.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jax:<BR><B>How can a person who says she loves you so completely just a few years ago now treat you with such utter hatred and contempt?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If she didn't hate you, she would have to hate herself. If she didn't blame you, she would have to blame herself.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>How can a person who says that she wants to be on her own hook up with another man justs days after she moves out?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If she didn't find someone else to live with, she would have to live with herself.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B> How can a person continue to carry on as though we never had a marriage to begin with?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If she didn't revise her history, she would have to live with her memories.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>How can a person just give little regard to the results the above actions are having on our daughter?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If she admitted to herself that other people exist as something other than extensions of herself, she would have to live with her guilt.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>How can a person change so drastically from one that you adored not long ago to someone who you even dread to see anymore simply because you know that although this person looks and sounds just like the person you fell in love with it simply isn't her anymore?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Why does a normally gentle person out for a swim attack a would-be rescuer when she realizes she is drowning?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>yes I'm baffled, and each time she does something out of spite or hatred for me it hurts. I don't understand. I've done nothing yet I get the brunt of it all. Some say it's guilt, but I'm not so sure she's even capable of that.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>She may not be capable of feeling guilt right now. And yet, somewhere underneath all her self-protective behavior...<P>She still hates herself.<P>She still cannot escape herself.<P>She still has her memories.<P>She still has her guilt.<P>And she is still drowning.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited June 25, 2001).]

Jax, <P>You have been here a long time, so I am going to give it to ya straight. Whenever people suffer the loss of a love relationship, there are steps that they go through to adjust; however, sometimes people get stuck on a step and they linger there a while. It sounds like you are lingering, my friend, and she is definately stuck on the anger and bitterness! <P>You see, anger is a natural step in the process. People get all concerned about "why am I so angry" and "I shouldn't feel this way about my X", but the fact is, your spouse left you and you have some legitimate reasons to feel angry. Frankly, she has a couple legitimate reasons too. But the thing is, both of you have gotten stuck on the anger step. Since you can't do a darn thing to change or control her, I am going to focus on you, okay?<P>The steps immediately surrounding anger are letting go and self-worth, and am going to challenge you with a couple ideas here. Is it conceivable that you are hanging on to anger and you are stuck on anger, because if you get off of anger, you have to start letting her go, and doing that is unbearable? Are your two lives still pretty entangled? Are you reluctant to grow? Is it possible that your self-worth is shot to hades and you think you can't live without her--or ever be happy--or ever be loved or love again? Could it be that you are thinking that you are the bad guy and taking a lot of your own internal guilt?<P>Jax, I truly don't know the answers to these questions, but you may be able to ask them to yourself. If you feel reluctant to grow past a step, try to understand what feelings are keeping you from growing. Okay--at least promise to keep your thoughts open to discovering any step that you might be stuck on and why!<P>Last, I want to share something with you from my own personal experience that was and still is very hard for me. When I married, I was under the illusion that my spouse cared as much about me and my well being as he did about himself. BUZZER SOUND--wrong! The problem is, though, I still continued to operate as if he had my best interests at heart, even when it was glaringly apparent that he didn't. What I'm trying to say here is that it is hard to accept in your heart of hearts that this person whom you loved so much, who stopped loving you but you never stopped loving them, now suddenly is not on your side anymore. They used to be your co-warrior against the world, and now they are using their warrior skills against you! It is really hard to admit to yourself now it is up to you and you alone to uphold yourself and build yourself and protect yourself--and sometimes against the very person who used to be helping you! <P>I know I may be way off base here, but I would still be really interested to hear the answers to the questions I asked you. You know...when you have a minute or two to type. <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I use to ask myself these questions daily, and punish myself for causing all of these problems, after some counseling and visiting this site, I began to realize that I did not cause her to act or do any of the things she did. And believe me as I read your post I thought you were talking about my ex. I can see now for myself that is it important for me to stay focused on myself, I have no control over her. It is funny that now, the answers to these question don't seem important to me anymore, all I know is this is what happened to me and I must still go on and take care of myself without her.<BR> My therapist said the anger and rage she has gives her a false sence of being in control and helps her to justify what she has done, he said it will take along time for her to get past this, but when she does it will be devastating to her to have to face herself and deal with everthing she has done, he say's it will happen in time. I sometimes think, how long before she wakes up, but then I tell myself it doesn't matter, I just need to take care of myself and not worry about what is in her head, well the truth is I have no answers, but life does get better.<P>

Jax,<BR>My x acted pretty much the same way, but not quite to the extent of yours. She pretty much lied to me whenever she could.<P>Things have gotten better somewhat. She still takes a deep breath whenever I call to ask her something like she knows she has done something wrong and is expecting a scolding.<P>But now I never say anything.<P>Go back to plan B. Just treat her like a business arrangement for your d. Don't give her the opportunity to give you grief in front of your child.<P>As for the questions, they will eventually fade. I am finding myself questioning the actual events now. When did the EA start, where did they go that first time, etc. I never wanted to know those things before.<P>It will be 2 yrs since x physically left next week and about 3 emotionally.<P>I agree with the others about your x's emotional state. My x went back to her om, now h, even after her dumped her publically at work way back in 1999. He told her at work he was chosing to stay with his w(can you imagine that) and then proceeded to throwaway all "their" pictures, and when he moved out, he took the kitchen table and a bunch of other things he had supplied. She was so hurt.<P>But you know what, she never asked to come back and she wouldn't even promise that she wouldn't date anyone else. OM was back in the picture in a few weeks. It was all downhill from there.<p>[This message has been edited by RWD (edited June 26, 2001).]

Hey all thanks for the input I appreciate it. CJ, your words were like a cold shower. What I mean is they abruptly shock you into realizing that some of those questions I have asked myself and have avoided the answers because I was secure in my marriage and now there are so many uncertainties so in essence I guess I kind of stuck myself in this quagmire. I know it's up to me to move on, I know it's by my decision that I end this nonsense and I may have to suck it up and extend the olive branch one last time and hope she doesn't slap me in the face with it again, if anything just for my D's sake. Thanks again. Jax

Jax, <P>You are the only person I know who would have a big old smiley face after a cold shower--heehee. <P>You know what the beauty of this place is? You may have gotten yourself stuck on a certain step, but you don't have to get unstuck alone. It's scary to go up steps, and sometimes even though a step is kind of painful, at least it's familiar. That next step is unfamiliar, uncomfortable, scary--okay, I know I'm talking girl-talk here, but even for you big, tough he-men, sometimes its easier to stay in a spot that's a little painful than to venture out onto a spot that you know nothing about. That's why you don't ask for directions, isn't it? Just ribbing ya! So as you consider moving to the next step, just remember that you're stuck with us--the good, the bad and the ugly!<P>I have another question to shoot at you, and remember, my goal here is to make you think so you can come to your own decision of what is right for you. Jax, do you keep opening yourself up to be hurt by her, and then cursing her when she follows through and hurt you? Don't you know, in your heart of hearts, that she is going to keep doing this? Way deep down, I think you very badly want her to treat you decently and civilly and respectfully, but she didn't treat you that way when you were married (well, maybe in the beginning). What I'm trying to say is that you have to accept the fact that she is not going to be a nice person to you. <P>I'm so sorry to have to say that to you. Do you need a little encouraging hug? {{Jax}} You know, deep down, that she has shown you over and over again that she is not going to be nice to you, and the fact is, you are setting yourself up to be hurt when you keep hoping she will be. I'm not saying you need to follow her example here, but you need to consider what is in the best interests of JAX. Is it really in your best interests to be hurt and hurt and hurt and hurt? No. It is in your best interests to guard your heart, because it is the wellspring of life! <P>There's no reason you can't be civil and decent to her--lead by example--but you have GOT to protect your own heart a little bit. It's okay. You're not being a bad husband or bad man if you protect yourself. It's HEALTHY to say, "This person has hurt me many times and crossed my boundary many times, so until it is demonstrated to me that I can trust her with my feelings, I'm going to have to withdraw a little bit and not be as close as I wish we were." This is just plain for your own good, Jax, so be strong and of a good courage, and when she starts acting with hatred and contempt toward you, you protect yourself and be proud and stand up for what is in your best interests.<P>Gee, after that I feel like we could defeat the Nazi army single-handedly! RA RA!! Go team, go!!<P>Your old friend (and I don't mean I'm old),<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Thanks CJ,<BR>You know you're right. I've heard this from others as well but I just haven't been able to accept it, guess I've been a glutton for punishment huh? You know what I think has stuck me is, I think I'm waiting for something. Maybe waiting for her to crash back down to earth. By making myself unavailble to letting go I have been putting myself in the position (in hopes) that I would be free emotionally or otherwise to act as her safety net when or if she does come out of her fog. I guess that line of thinking would leave me in limbo forever. And yes I am a little reluctant to release what feelings I have left for her, whether it be of love or hate doesn't matter they were feelings that connected me to her. Well time to move on now I suppose. You've helped shed some more light on this wrecked soul and in typical unmale fashion (guys don't come down on me for this) I'm going to ask for directions, "which way to the exit?" <BR>Henceforth I shall no longer be a puppet in her game of hurt, in the words of Quarterflash, "I'm gonna harden my heart, gonna swallow my tears." Oops am I showing my age? <BR>Jax

"I'm gonna turn and leave you here..." (Yup, I'm an oldie but a goodie too--heehee).<P>If you are a glutton for punishment, there are a LOT funner ways to be punished (evil grin). Is "funner" even a word? Oh well--I'm an English major, and in this instance the meaning is more important than the grammar. Jax, aren't you tired of being hurt? Or, in some ways is it sort of comfortable because it's familiar? Very Buddha-esque, huh?<P>Anyway, the day will come when you are ready to face it that she is no longer "on your side." The day will come when you are ready to protect Jax, even if it means letting go of her. That day may be here, and if it is we can walk the path together; and if it isn't, we'll be here when you're ready. <P>So take a little time and prepare yourself, and when you're ready I'll show you the exit and you'll walk on your own path. Okay? <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

When a person changes drastically for the worse in personality, there are really only three possibilities:<BR>1)He/she was never a good person to begin with, and you were deceived, possibly for decades.<BR>2)Personality can change overnight - in which case there is no point in getting to know anyone, getting attached to anyone, depending on anyone, having any relationships - ie., there is no point in being part of the human race, no point in living.<BR>3)There is a biological/emotional cause behind the sudden change in personality - most often depression or other mental illness.<P>I am NOT going to accept that the alien that has replaced my H is the real man. I don't believe that he could have pretended to be a caring, thoughtful, responsible man who loved his family for a quarter of a century if that was not the "real" him. <P>Accepting reason #2 would be tantamount to accepting the utter pointlessness of life, and I never did like Albert Camus.<P>That leaves #3. I am going to continue to believe that the good man my H was is still there underneath the depression and the guilt. <P>Why would I "accept" the fact that he is going to continue to treat me badly? That could easily become a self-fullfilling prophesy. Why would I base my expectations of his future behavior on his past behavior? If that could be depended upon, I wouldn't be on this board now.<P>I am not going to harden my heart. I am not going to treat him as a business partner. He will always be one of my loved ones, and I will continue to treat him as such. <P>

Well Nellie more power to you, but if you get nothing but hatred and resentment in return when is enough going to be enough? Trust me I will always love my ex there will always be a soft spot for her there but when loving her hurts and having that love thrown back in your face you have to draw the line somewhere I think. In my case I have let it run my life up to this point and I don't think I want to do that anymore, I and we all deserve to be happy and I think I've dwelled upon the past long enough it's just that she's not the person I fell in love with, I've been clinging to the memory of that person. I can't be expected to wait around for her to become civil and respectful, hopefully by example she'll come around on her own and release the anger she holds for me and then we'll be able to perhaps gain some measure of trust for one another but in the mean time I have to be selfish and protect my own interests for the sake of my own sanity. As a matter of reference in my case there was no biological problem she actaully had that checked, so it must be emotional, hence the OM? Personally I think she's lost, emotionally. By her own admission she states that she doesn't think she knows what love really is all about and I believe her on that one. Guess we each have to handle things as we see fit, whether it's the right way or the wrong way is of no consequence to anyone else but it's a right that we have as human beings. Jax

I would only dispute the statement that we all deserve to be happy. Life is not about the pursuit of happiness but rather about doing the right thing; happiness is at best an elusive goal, and the very act of making it a goal almost always ensures that it will not be achieved.

jax, My H is very much like your W. I used to be the love of his life, but now he never loved me and continues to do hateful things to me. I have a temporary restraining order against my H, but now he's trying to file one against me. In his case, his personality is definitely altered, not by mental illness, but by substance abuse, along with OW. This doesn't make it any easier to bear. <P>This thread has a lot of good advice that helped me, too. I'm trying to withdraw from H. I don't have to see him or hear from him due to TRO, but I get regular,disrespectful communications via his lawyer. I did a Plan B, which brought him home for a short time, but he didn't maintain no contact. Basically this is Plan B again, without the letter. <P>Plan B really helps to protect you emotionally. The goal is to preserve whatever love is left but at the same time prepare yourself for the end of the relationship if that's inevitable. I really believe that my H will eventually wake up from the delusion he's living. He and OW are both unemployed, living off money from his parents in a trailer owned by his parents about 3 hrs from here (and this is a 48 yr. old man with a 22 yr. old OW who used to run a business with me, OW was former employee) and probably drinking heavily and using drugs, since that's what they were doing when they lived here.<P>But all we can do is take care of ourselves. We can't change them. Obviously our spouses don't care as much about us as we care about them right now. And if they ever do again, then what? who knows? In the meantime, it's our responsibility to become the best we can be. In 12 step programs there's a saying, "What you're looking for, you're looking with."