<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GnomeDePlume:<BR><B> He may not know how not to keep hurting you. He may simply not have the skills. How can he do the right thing when all he knows how to do is wrong things?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>GnomeDePlume, where did you get so smart? The School of Hard Knocks? What you are saying here makes some sense and I actually believe that this may be part of the problem. HOWEVER, I would LOVE to show and explain and teach him what the right thing is!! God, with all my heart I would love to talk to him about it, but he never will.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B><BR>I know it's a different situation, but there were many times in conversations with my wife that I hurt her over and over. I just couldn't seem to stop myself, because I knew that if she could only understand what I was really trying to say all her pain would go away, and I wanted desperately for that to happen. So I kept trying to find the magical right way to say it, and she kept misunderstanding, and I kept hurting her.<P>I never understood that my wife was not reacting to what I said, or how I said it, or what I felt. She was reacting to something inside herself.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>GDP, this is an excellent observation, and I am impressed that you ever understood this! I know for a fact that this very thing goes on between us. He keeps forcing it and forcing it and forcing it until eventually I stop squirming and let him shove it down my throat. He may think that he FINALLY got to say his piece and now I finally understand, but what I feel inside is like a small part of me just was killed for him to get his point across. <P>Here's my question for you. How in the world did you ever figure this out? What happened in your life that one day you understood this? Did someone explain it to you or did you read it? <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> <B> When your husband talks to you, is he talking to you, or to something inside himself? When you hear him talk, are you hearing him, or something inside yourself?.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> This question literally makes me laugh, because I don't think he's even aware of whether I'm in the room or not when he's talking to me. I know for a fact that he is not able to "reach out" and tell what I am feeling, but I think that's because he's not aware of my presence. Does that make any sense? Not the "is she in the room" presence, but the "essence, spirit" presence. So, to answer your easy question, it is a monologue--he's talking to something within himself. <P>The harder question is, am I hearing him or something inside me? Good question--good point. I bet my tendency, especially when I start "getting hurt" is to hear something inside of me; yet I know for a fact that there have been times that I heard him, because I heard and felt the hurt in his voice. You know, I got the message behind the words, not just hearing the words. <P>Thanks for your thoughts, GDP. As usual, they were thought provoking and right on target. Now if I could just get a little lopsided, half hug out of you I would grin from ear to ear (tease, tease). <P><BR>CJ<BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumperii:<BR><B>When Cyrano was playing at the Walnut St. Theater, I took a lady friend to see it. It is one of the most beautiful love stories ever written, the script is wonderful, the loving lines reach out and tug at the heartstrings. Make a long story short, I sucked up every word of it, and she fell asleep. Go figure!<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Bumper, <P>Thanks for your prayers and stuff. Coming from you, it means a lot to me. Here's the funny thing, my friend: you know exactly what the women want--you just don't know it. The story of Cyrano and Roxanne makes me cry EVERY TIME, I love it so. Here's the best, funny part. Without knowing it, you gave me the best . . . (long sigh--wistful glance). Can't think of a way to say this--but what a great story and what a perfect excuse to shed a tear or two in the name of true love. <P>How are you doing? Will you give us an update now and then?<P><BR>CJ<BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LostHusband:<BR><B> “”””Who prayed for me to learn patience?”””” <P>Funny thing, I did just the night before last and again last night. I’m reminded of a post that was in this forum a while ago, one of the quotes was<P>I asked God to grant me patience. God said, No. Patience is a by-product of tribulations; it isn’t granted, it is earned.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Bill, I have learned enough of patience for a while. I have a bank stockpile of it and I have earned each and every one the hard way. Please tell God you didn't mean it and I am patient enough, or He will keep teaching me. Ask Him to teach me how to be charitable or thoughtful or something. This patience is killing me!<P>Okay--I'm only half way kidding. I have a friend once who was a wonderful, spiritual woman, and when we asked her what her prayer request was for herself, she said, "Please tell God that I am patient enough and He doesn't need to keep adding things to my life that require patience." I thought is was cute, because her relationship with God was that personal. <P>Thank you so much for your thoughts and prayers and hugs and stuff. You know what I mean.<P><BR>CJ<P>P.S. That quote about patience was mighty wise. Who was that incredible and obviously knowledgeable woman who posted that? <BR><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

I understand how you feel. I have finally filed for divorce after trying everything I could think of to save our marriage. I admire you for trying. No matter how the situation turns out, you know that you tried and did your best- you don't have to wonder if you had only done this or that- would it have changed things. At least that is the way I feel. But it still breaks your heart when your spouse becomes someone you don't know. Hang in there. You are behaving with honor, and no matter what, that is a good thing in itself. <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>It's 1am here in the wild, wild west, and I just got off the phone with my H. I don't know what the heck just happened, and I'm too tired to think straight, and my fingers are too tired to type it all out. All I know is that I am hurting so bad my heart aches. <P>I hate this! It's not fair. I try and try to talk to him and communicate and have fun and be the wife he wants, but he won't tell me what he wants and somehow it's all my fault--and I DON'T GET IT!! I hate it when I don't get it, because I usually get it and then make a joke about it!<P>Why can't he see how he is killing me inside? WHY? It's got to be glaringly obvious!! Why does he keep on killing me when I've told him it hurts and please stop? Why oh why can't I have one night of gentle, loving, comforting, soothing caring? Have I offended God somehow or what? Is my life lesson really THIS BIG? What in the hell have I done that has made Him so mad at me? It must have been big!<P>I am sick and tired of practicing patience and being understanding and responding maturely and taking the high road. I mean, it's some small comfort I guess, but I DON'T WANT TO LEARN PATIENCE ANYMORE! Who prayed for me to learn patience? <P>Why? Why? Why? Why can't I have the soft, smooshy answer I so long for? Where is my gentle savior? <P>Okay, I'm pulling myself together and going to bed. I'm bringing my lotion tissues with me. Maybe my head will be clearer in the morning and I'll be able to type what happened--if I figure it out. <P></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><P>------------------<BR>SoSad.59

HI CJ!!<P>Finally got a chance to get online and saw your post....you are an amazing person and I know how much you want your marriage and are working towards it. It is hard and difficult. <BR>Be patient and know that things will work out...sometimes when we are under great stress we feel we are not making headway, but continue your counseling and work on yourself...he will come around, just be patient and avoid as many lovebusters as you can..<BR>Being patient was tough for me and I slid back into old ways at times. We are human, so if you do, apologize to him for it and continue on yourself. Right now it is the best thing you can do!!<P>------------------<BR>Susan

CJ,<P>Sometimes when faced with an important decision, I agonize over it. Maybe either alternative would be ok, but the indecision is tough. I tend to imagine all the things that would make me miserable if I took this path or that. Making the decision brings a certain peace.<P>You're still wondering "can I have a real marriage with this guy?". You can work on you all you want, and benefit from it, but being emotionally available to someone brings vulnerability. I still think you need an expert opinion as to: 1) Can/will he turn around? 2) If so, what's the game plan/time frame for this possibly happening?<P>I wonder if fear of the answer wasn't part of your reluctance about marriage counseling in the first place. You want him, having lost him and regained him. But are you settling for the illusion of having him, or do you face the hard reality that maybe he's not capable of sharing himself in the way that makes for a strong marriage?<P>Having said that, my wife grew up believing, based on her FOO, that it was ok to be verbally abusive and say or do almost anything, then it would all be forgotten the next day. I don't know how many times I tried to tell her that what we do to other people has lasting consequences for the relationship. Sometimes she'd just say "I don't know how to love". Eventually, she had her A (really several, but one major one). These have done real and lasting damage.<P>However, as slow as it has been, she seems to exercise a lot more self-restraint, and to be much more cognizant of the effects of what she says and does. It seems that she has to some degree had at least some of the sort of epiphany that you were asking GDP about. What's done this?<P>I really don't know the answer. My plan A? Maybe somewhat. Maturity, the grace of God, finally working through FOO issues, and maybe other things as well, I think.<P>Anyway, change can happen. If and when it happens for Mark I don't know.<P>However, I think the questions for you to explore with your counselor are the two I posed above. Whatever the answers, I think that having some firm opinion and course of action based on the answers you come up with will help you have more peace.<P>Rambling from Houston in the middle of the night,<P>Steve<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by StillHers:<BR><B>You're still wondering "can I have a real marriage with this guy?". You can work on you all you want, and benefit from it, but being emotionally available to someone brings vulnerability. I still think you need an expert opinion as to: 1) Can/will he turn around? 2) If so, what's the game plan/time frame for this possibly happening?<P>I wonder if fear of the answer wasn't part of your reluctance about marriage counseling in the first place. You want him, having lost him and regained him. But are you settling for the illusion of having him, or do you face the hard reality that maybe he's not capable of sharing himself in the way that makes for a strong marriage?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>DING-DING-DING. Vanna, tell him what he's won.<P>You are so right, Steve it is spooky. I had a great counseling session, and that is almost exactly what we talked about. Since he had made the decision to not attend our second session, the counselor and I decided to work only on me and not discuss him at all. After all, believe it or not, I do have my own issues. The thing is, at the end of the session, I felt pretty good and on track and like myself again, and that's when it hit me. I could work on myself all I want and be a fabulous person and wife, and yet still have a troubled marriage because my partner can not/will not participate. <P>What we decided is to schedule another session for next week (Monday night) and see if he comes and if he participates. This will be an indication as to whether or not he can or is willing to turn around. If he tries to "escape" again, or makes an excuse, or doesn't participate, we will continue on as individual counseling only. OTOH, if he comes and participates, her words were, "He has got to be willing to hear the pain that he caused you and face it rather than try to escape from it." <P>My heart's desire would be to have me work on myself and my issues, have him work on himself and his issues willingly, and have us work together to establish a plan for rebuilding and repairing our marriage. Then, I would know where I stand. As it is now, I guess we shall see on Monday.<P>You are also right on about the reason why I went so slowly into marital counseling. I told my counselor that I felt as if I could not trust my own senses sometimes, because my perceptions were so out-of-tune. Well, she asked me these questions: Can you trust your perceptions at work? Are your instincts okay at work? Are you able to tell what is and is not happening at work? How about with your friends? Are your perceptions of your friends accurate? Does your intuition seem to be "out of whack" with your friends? What about with your children? Do your perceptions about your children seem trustworthy? Are your intuitions pretty on target with your children?<P>Then she said, "If your perceptions are right on target in every OTHER area of your life, then they are probably right on target in this area too. Chances are more likely that you don't like what you are perceiving, or you are trying to deny what you are perceiving, (and this was the one that fit for me) or YOU ARE NOT READY TO ACCEPT WHAT YOU ARE PERCEIVING. You can trust your instincts. Now, CJ, tell me. What is it that you can't trust?" <P>Sneaky, wise woman, huh? I can't trust hubby and I can't trust the illusion, yet I was not ready to accept what I knew in my heart and could see for myself.<P>As you can tell, I'm feeling back on track. Thanks for your continued thoughts and posts and wisdom, Steve.<P><BR>CJ<P>[This message has been edited by FaithfulWife (edited June 28, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by FaithfulWife (edited June 28, 2001).]

CJ,<P>Yes I'm still here - have become a big "lurker". I just read this post and I want to convey two thoughts to you: First, I'm not the one praying for patience for you It is very apparent that you have quite a bit of it already! My prayers are for perseverence, so that you may persevere through this difficult challenge in your life. God has great plans for you and (boy never thought I would ever be saying this), the sun WILL come out again and shine down on you!!!! It has taken about 3 years, but I can now attest to it!<P>Since everything ended with my X, for the first time in about 3 years I have felt my inner strength returning. The confidence, the self-assurance. Then I read your post and realized something... I can remember so many days like what you are going through - where I wanted a "sign" from my X - a word of encouragement - anything - anything at all that gave me hope we would "make it". Now I stand here and KNOW that was not the best thing at all. I unknowingly put so much more pressure on an already unbelievably tense situation. I would become obsessed about my own feelings and wants and desires, that I overlooked the fact that my wife was also involved in that mess and that she was going through hard times as well (even if her way of handling things was childish and immature). I only wish I took my counselor's advice at the time (and the advice from many here) and focused on myself. Now I know we can't go back and change the past, but CJ I'll tell you what - I am starting to believe that if I was able to express the strength I have about myself now, back when things were going wrong with my wife, the outcome probably would have been different. Why am I telling you this? Because you are where I was at! You are in the place where "if", if you can begin to regain and grow your inner strength I truly 100% believe your marriage can and will be saved. Think of you and your husband as opposing forces - the harder you push him, the further he will retreat and move away, BUT if you are able to begin to pull-back, I will bet you will be amazed in the fact that he will begin to draw closer to you. When I say "pull-back" I don't mean to close him out or leave him behind, rather just try to remove him as the source of your daily happiness (and unhappiness). If you haven't read Dobson's Tough Love - GET IT. If you have read it, read it again. The main focus of the book is based upon the belief that if you allow your husband some room to breathe and take on a life of your own, your husband will stop moving away and his attraction to you will begin to increase and draw him closer. Before that happens though, your husband will begin to test you to see if what you are doing is some kind of "trick" or if the changes in you are for real. (now that I think about it, I am going to re-post a chapter from his book that I posted here before).<P>Hearing what you need to do and "doing" what you need to do are two totally different things. BELIEVE ME I KNOW Many have said it in this post - focus on you CJ. Try to get yourself to the point where your husbands words, attitudes and feelings do not effect yours. In reality I don't think any of us in a relationship truly ever reach that point, but rather it is the "process" of constantly trying to achieve it that is important.<P>CJ, I so remember vividly what I felt like when I was in your shoes. And I still do pray for you to receive God's strength to help you persevere.<P>One day at a time...<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

The following is an excerpt from a book by Dr. Dobson called Tough Love. I highly suggest you invest a couple dollars and go out to get it - it is worth the money. I wish I could have done what he suggests when my life left. Anyway take a read and think about it....<P>[following is an exerpt]<BR>------------------------------------------------<BR>The standard approach to marriage counselling is to teach husbands and wives how to revitalise unhealthy relationships and help them work through their conflicts. Unfortunately, such advice assumes that both parties are equally motivated to work on their problems. That is rarely the case. Typically, when a marriage is unravelling, there is one partner who is less concerned about the prospect of divorce, while the other is terrified by it. At its worse, as in cases of infidelity, the drifting member often has little desire to engage in counselling, except perhaps as a pretence to lessen guilt or criticism. He or she may have decided already that the relationship is over. <BR>It has been my observation that the way the committed partner responds at that vital juncture will determine whether the marriage will survive or succumb. I'll explain why in a moment. <P>Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one's life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters. There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a "stranger” . . . a competitor . . . a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe. If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage. <P>Let's look for a moment at the other half of the relationship-focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface. Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself.<BR> <BR>The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.<P>Now we begin to see why grovelling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on. Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will. <P>To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I'm sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, "I think I'll die if you don't marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don't turn me down," etc. Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, "Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I've only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I'll go straight out and kill myself!" <P>This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to "sell himself" to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn't love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. <P>Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time. If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same grovelling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: "John [or Diane], I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching, and I now realise that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead." <P><BR>Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can't believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn't necessary to fight off her advances-her grasping hands-any more. "But there must be a catch," he thinks. "It's too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she'll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She's really weak, you know, and she'll crack under pressure." <P>It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious-that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance. <P>If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. <P>Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously "grabby" lover begins to let go of the cool spouse: The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, "How can I get out of this mess?" he now asks, "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home! The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return.<P>---------------------------------------------------------<P>What great words. If I could have only put those words into action in my own marriage at the time when it needed them the most. I'm not saying I regret how I acted - for I did the best I could at the time. I only post this here hoping that maybe you can "live" these words now and not have to look back down the road and wonder.<P>And by the way, the second paragraph of this excerpt that talks about "the tidal wave of pain" is one of the truest paragraphs I have ever read...<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

It sounds like you may be regaining your clear thinking. This is good. You are beginning to sound like the woman we all know you to be.<P><B>(((((((((((((((((((((((((((CJ)))))))))))))))))))))))))</B><P>Be sure to give my best regards to the Ambassador. I am sure you will then receive a special message for today. It will probably be about love and peace.

WOW Mike, I needed to read those quotes from the book! Thank you so much for taking the time to write your response to CJ! May we all be reminded and learn from them!<P>(((((CJ))))) how are doing today girl? Hugs and thinking of you! I DID like how your counselor picked at your brain!<P>Ragamuffin<p>[This message has been edited by Ragamuffin (edited June 28, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<BR><B>"There were many times in conversations with my wife that I hurt her over and over. I just couldn't seem to stop myself, because I knew that if she could only understand what I was really trying to say all her pain would go away, and I wanted desperately for that to happen. So I kept trying to find the magical right way to say it, and she kept misunderstanding, and I kept hurting her. I never understood that my wife was not reacting to what I said, or how I said it, or what I felt. She was reacting to something inside herself."<P>Here's my question for you. How in the world did you ever figure this out? What happened in your life that one day you understood this? Did someone explain it to you or did you read it?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm afraid there were no epiphanies involved. Understanding came very slowly. I recognized the pattern long before I had any clue about what caused it, and it happened way too many times. There was nothing that tore me up more than to see my wife crying, and to know that I had inadvertently caused her pain, often as a result of my saying something that I had intended to be encouraging. Her pain seemed so...unnecessary.<P>The first step toward understanding was the recognition of my own powerlessness. <I>Nothing</I> I could think of to say or do could "fix" her pain, no matter how badly I wanted it. I was finally forced to admit this to myself when I simply ran out of ideas.<P>That first step was the hardest. Once taken, the next step followed naturally (at least for someone with a compulsion toward logical analysis). My model had been of a black box (my wife) with one input (my words and actions) and one output (her "reactions"). If the output was independent of the input, then there had to be <I>another</I> input. In the absence of any other input observable to the senses, that second input must be hidden within the black box itself.<P>This level of understanding was certainly beneficial for <I>me</I>, and I don't think I could have dealt adequately with my depression without it. (It really helps to know that I am not the cause of everything bad that happens in my life.) But unfortunately, it wasn't enough to help in my relationship with my wife. I <I>still</I> didn't know anything about that hidden input. I still couldn't predict how something I said or did might interact with that mysterious other factor. My relationship with my wife was virtually defined by my terror of hurting her, to the point that when she moved out she said it was because she could not bear to see me so "sad and fearful". (Funny how now she's decided it was because I was angry and controlling.)<P>So much for wisdom, huh?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>"When your husband talks to you, is he talking to you, or to something inside himself?..."<P>This question literally makes me laugh, because I don't think he's even aware of whether I'm in the room or not when he's talking to me. I know for a fact that he is not able to "reach out" and tell what I am feeling, but I think that's because he's not aware of my presence. Does that make sense? Not the "is she in the room" presence, but the "essence, spirit" presence. So, to answer your easy question, it is a monologue--he's talking to something within himself.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Now, this really caught my attention because it's not quite what I meant, and what you said here could have been verbatim what my wife might have said about me. I tend to concentrate on what I am saying, and to forget not just about the "essence, spirit" presence of who I am talking to, but about my own presence as well. And although over the years I have gotten better at consciously observing and deducing feelings (at least of someone I know well), I have no ability whatsoever to "reach out" and tell what someone is feeling. I think it's an "F" vs. "T" thing.<P>For a while I believed that these differences in communication style might hold the clue to that "magical right way" of getting through to my wife. I worked hard at such skills as maintaining eye contact and modulating my voice into a softer tone. I begged my wife for more specific suggestions on things I could do so that she would feel I was connecting with her. These are good skills for an INTP to develop, but alas, they hold no magic...<P>What I was really thinking of, though, when I asked whether your husband was talking to something inside himself, was whether he might be trying to convince <I>himself</I> of something under the guise of trying to convince <I>you</I>. Projection is endemic in marital relationships.<P>CJ}}}}}}<BR>

CJ:<P>I'm glad to hear that the counselor was able to help you see things more clearly. I think you have received such great advice from people here. You are so right about the wisdom offered here. <P>Between GDP and Mike's posts, I have gained so much.<P>One thing, I wanted to share with you after reading all of this is how much I related to Mike's tough love post. Now, I'm actually relating to it from both sides of the coin. Having just ended a new relationship, I can now understand more the side of the spouse who is leaving and why the begging and pleading do not work and really seem to make things worse. And, I really could relate to the loss of respect I had for my bf vs. the loss of the ability to communicate. That is so true! Issues came up that caused me to lose respect for him vs. not being able to communicate. When he started begging and pleading to stay, it got even worse. Now, that he is finally respecting my decision to leave, I am feeling more respect for him. <P>But, I must add, that I haven't noticed you behaving this way at all. I have only seen you acting strong and assertive with him. And, I so admire your perseverance and dedication in trying to figure out how to make this all work. I really hope you are successful. I hope that in time your husband will finally see the light and you will be able to salvage your marriage. In the meantime, I'm glad that you have decided to focus on yourself and are starting to question what is best for YOU in this situation. I think your therapist and Steve's post were right on target on what you need to be asking yourself right now.<P>Hang in there CJ. You really are an inspiration to us all.<P>Finaly, I want to thank you for sharing your story. And, I also want to thank Mike for posting the tough love info. It has helped me so much. <p>[This message has been edited by 711 (edited June 29, 2001).]

{{{{{{{CJ}}}}}}}<P>I wish the best for you... these games they play aren't it. <BR>Lori