Have you ever heard anyone say that AA is like a religious cult that should be avoided? Not in reference to the "higher power" mentioned in the steps but just as a whole in practice, philosophy and meeting style. I think it's nuts, but I can give you three guesses who said that (and you can guess it in one.) Excuses...<P>??<p>[This message has been edited by gsd (edited June 30, 2001).]

Actually, there ARE some AA meetings that are a little heavy-handed regarding just whom you have as your higher power! But yeah, I think I can guess the answer in one shot...<P>Now here's a twist: There are <B>alternatives</B> to AA and 12 step recovery programs! I've discovered <A HREF="http://www.unhooked.com" TARGET=_blank>www.unhooked.com</A> to be very helpful. It is a strictly secular non-12 step program that addresses the concerns of those disenchanted with their AA experience. There are others that can be found with a quick search on <A HREF="http://www.about.com." TARGET=_blank>www.about.com.</A> <P>Of course, someone won't be too happy to hear this...any guesses as to who?<p>[This message has been edited by cjack (edited June 30, 2001).]

GSD,<P>Well, I've been at it for a while, and yes, I heard the cult reference on a TV broadcast. I wasn't paying much attention to it, so I don't have the foggiest notion who said it.<P>There were court cases in Wisconsin and California ordering a defendant to attend AA meetings as part of his sentence or condition of probation and parole. The higher courts vacated the sentences ruling that there was a religious nature to AA meetings.<P>AA doesn't claim to be the only way an alcoholic can achieve sobriety or abstinance. I attend simply because it worked for me. Yes, I have the attitude: "If it works, don't fix it."<P>Let us not forget that there are people in this world we never hear about in the news. They are the ones who realized that alcohol wasn't what they wanted in life, so they just quit drinking. There are millions of people in this world who choose not to drink alcoholic beverages.<P>Among alcoholics, there are those who cannot or will not accept the AA program. If they find something else that works for them, I wish them every success. When alcohol abuse is destroying your life, the only unforgivable sin is to do nothing.<P>The only treatments I believe are bogus are those that claim they can cure alcoholism, and teach an alcoholic to manage his drinking. Without exeception, every one of these has fallen flat on its face within a few years. All they do is relieve a drunk of whatever little money he has left. All the legitimate programs agree that total abstinance from alcohol is essential.<P><BR>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper<P><p>[This message has been edited by Bumperii (edited July 01, 2001).]

<<I think it's nuts, but I can give you three guesses who said that (and you can guess it in one.)>><P>Well, I'm out of the loop! I don't know who you're talking about.<P>As far as AA being a cult, I was in a chat room once that was infiltrated by a zealot claiming how Bill W. used LSD and other such information. Now, I have no idea about that. I went to AA, and it helped me. My stbx is in his own white knuckle, I-can-control-my-drinking-as-long-as-you-don't-see-me. And you know what? It works!!<P>Not born yesterday,<BR>Nell

Nell-<P>I was referring to my ex with the "guessing" comment; he often used that as an excuse not to look into treatment, avoid going, or emphasize the fact that he DID not have a drinking problem. I was curious if the excuses made by alcoholics were so common, or as odd as this one. <P>Who is Bill W?<P>cjack-<BR>Thanks for the links. And you are right, my ex would not have wanted to hear any of it. It would be another attempt by me to control him.<P>Bumper--<BR>I suppose I understand the references. I am going to my first alanon meeting this week, so I will see. I have attended another 12 step support group a while back and I could see the religious undertones: group setting, chants/recitations, 12 steps/commmandments, confessionals/testimonials, sponsorship. But I agree that if it works then it doesn't matter (almost) how one gets sober. My ex went to a few meetings, said that it seemed cultish (he is a religious-phobe anyway--grew up in a strict religious home). He claimed to be seeing a pastor for couseling (how is that for irony) and only had a beer every now and then. When I last saw him, he claimed to have been sober for 3 weeks, but I smelled alcohol on his breath then and he said he was later going to see his dad and pla"no longer abused alcohol." When I mentioned AA, he got defensive again. Ironic that his brother's life was saved by AA just two years before. I was at the point I didn't care if someone painted him blue and displayed him on the roof of the Sear's tower if it would get him sober. <P>

gsd, That's a common reaction from people new to 12-step programs, in fact that was my reaction when I first went to Al-Anon! So call me nuts . My H, once he was really only pretending to still be sober, started to complain that in AA he wasn't allowed to be unhappy. He was expected to talk about how f'ed life was before AA and how wonderful life was after AA. This has not been my experience with 12-step programs, and like your H's (and mine) just another excuse not to change. And cjack is right, if one excuse won't work, there are always others... A good one to watch for is that AA is for losers who just sit around and complain.<P>In Al-Anon they say "take what you like and leave the rest." Although most meetings I've been to end with the Lord's Prayer, some use other less religious prayers. They say many new meetings start because of a resentment, so if a meeting feels to Christian and you're a Buddhist or an atheist, start your own! Higher Power can be anything you want it to be.<P>Bill W. is Bill Wilson, one of the cofounders of AA along with Dr. Bob (Smith, I think). <P>Bumper, I totally agree with you when you say, "When alcohol abuse is destroying your life, the only unforgivable sin is to do nothing. The only treatments I believe are bogus are those that claim they can cure alcoholism, and teach an alcoholic to manage his drinking." <P>My H's latest excuse was that he had (miraculously) learned to drink "in control." I guess he's also smoking marijuana in control, and shooting crank in control, and having an affair with a 22 year old married girl when he's 48 in control, and calling his kids filthy names until they never want to speak to him again, in control, and allowing his son to be arrested for his drugs and syringes in control, and being unemployed in control, and blaming me for all his problems in control, and suddenly being totally disabled and needing spousal support for the rest of his life, yeah his life is in control... sorry, got a little worked up there for a minute .<P>Nell, my H can also drink "in control" as long as no one sees what he's really consuming, just the two beers he drinks publicly. So where did all the empty beer cans come from? Who do they think they're fooling? And you're right, as long as I don't have to see him, it works for me too! I just hope that some day I'll have enough serenity to be able to maintain it no matter what he does or whether I see him or not.<p>[This message has been edited by LetSTry (edited July 01, 2001).]

<<And you're right, as long as I don't have to see him, it works for me too! I just hope that some day I'll have enough serenity to be able to maintain it no matter what he does or whether I see him or not.>><P>I'm hoping divorce will take care of that. If all I was contending with was the alcoholism, I would not be in this place now. As it is, alcohol allows a feeling of entitlement that pervades all aspects of His Highness' life, all to my direct disadvantage. It breaks my heart, and I wish I didn't feel like I have to do this, but I can't have a relationship with my husband without being emotionally battered and abused, among other things. I would stand by his side, but he won't LET me. I don't have a marriage; I have a roommate, someone who can only commit to duping himself and the rest of society that he's a great, charming guy.<P>Nell<BR>

I had a friend who suspected her H was an alcoholic because she found over 200 empty beer cans in the attic! I couldn't imagine, though my ex was showing the same signs (lying, manipulating, games, denial). I guess what we don't see doesn't hurt them....<P>I like the idea of taking what works and leaving the rest. I just want to learn about the disease and the role I played. I also need to see how other people have dealt with it in their relationships. I don't have contact with him, so I am not worried about coping. Sometimes I am still in awe with the whole thing. I am still learning to accept the fact that my exH had a problem at all. It makes me sick that an otherwise wonderful person could turn so ugly, irresponsible, and manipulative. It is still hard to understand.

Nell, <<It breaks my heart, and I wish I didn't feel like I have to do this, but I can't have a relationship with my husband without being emotionally battered and abused, among other things.>> me, too. My H continues to con his parents and charms his lawyer, but he has lost the respect of almost everyone else.<P>gsd, <<I just want to learn about the disease and the role I played.>> Just remember that in Al-Anon we say, "We didn't cause it, we can't control it, and we can't cure it." <P><<It makes me sick that an otherwise wonderful person could turn so ugly, irresponsible, and manipulative. It is still hard to understand.>> That's the disease of alcoholism. You can't understand it because it doesn't make sense. <P>My MIL keeps asking me why my H is acting the way he is and I just keep telling her it's because he relapsed and is drinking and using drugs again. It's really the only explanation there is. She and my FIL keep insisting that my H is not using drugs or drinking, since that's what he tells them. I tried to help them understand that the reason he is the only thing we talk about or don't want to talk about when we're together and all we're thinking about, whether we talk about him or not, is a symptom of the family disease of alcoholism. When he was sober, he wasn't the main topic of conversation and concern.

Sorry I'm late to the party on this thread! <P>I completely agree with Bumper, the only unforgivable thing is not to do something about the disease. While I would love for my H to go to AA, I'd been throwing a party if my H decided to do an alternative like Cjack has done. <P>What ever works. I'm certainly not going to judge or knock it!<P>But that being said, I've kinda found that most people who vehemently object to AA are the very people that need it the most and who are in huge denial and refusing to take responsibility.<P>Nobody in AA is forced to follow "rules" or "commandments". Nobody is forced into any kind of religious belief. The 12 steps are not about religion, they are about spirituality. I heard someone say one night that religion is for people who don't want to go to hell. Spirituality is for those people who have already been there and don't want to go back.<P>AA works because it offers fellowship. No one has to walk the very narrow road to recovery by themselves - for exactly the same reasons that we all come to this forum - seeking opinions of people in similar situations - needing to hear other's experience, strength and hope!<P>GSD, <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I just want to learn about the disease and the role I played. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You will learn lots. If you get a chance, go to a couple of open AA meetings too. LetsTry is right, we didn't cause it, can't control it or cure it....BUT...we did play a part in the whole drama. Just as many of us participated in creating a comfortable environment for our partners to have affairs, we also created comfortable environments for another's drinking.<P>And the disease is so cunning, baffling and powerful that it invades our own thinking and behaviors. You can't see it now, but you will!<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

I wrote an article on quitting addictions a while ago for a natural health site, and I'd like to pass along a piece of information I found rather interesting. The most successful program in quitting addictions is actually the incorporation of two or more therapeutic modalities. The most common combination is the support group and cognitive/behavioral counseling (1:1). The nature of the support group doesn't matter as long as total abstinance is the main goal. Counseling investigates causes, triggers, maintenance, etc. <P>There are other measures. Acupuncture, acupressure, reiki, hypnosis, and other therapies my menopausal brain won't allow me to recall right now. I can respect that for some individuals, saying, "I'm Nell and I'm an alcoholic" can be a bit socially unnerving. I realize some may feel that group "confession" is necessary, but this has recently come under controversy. Don't get me wrong; I think AA is great! It's not the only kind of support group available, and some alcoholics may do better attending one that is professionally moderated (more structured).<P>The main idea is to use two recuperative modes. Personally, I wouldn't care what my husband chose to do as long as his goal was sobriety and recovery, but that's water under the bridge. I had group and individual therapy, and not one relapse (knock on wood). <P>Step 12,<BR>Nell