So, in executing Plan A (for over 7 months now) and stbx-H is still planning and making slow head-way towards his intended goal, divorce... what do I do when repeatedly confronted with LBing behavior? <P>I have taken some behavior and ruminated over it for a while and then once the emotion is drained I can tell him how I felt without "punishing" him with the silent treatment or nit-picking on other areas b/c my feelings have been hurt. <P>So, my scenario is this... I do not support this D - though I'm starting to see that there is life on the other side - and I've been working my hiney off to Plan A and to demonstrate that the changes I've made are sustainable in all of my various relationships - kids, parents, work, etc... I think he sees the difference - I sure can. He keeps saying, "I know I'm gonna pay for this later." And he doesn't have to... I just let it go. EXCEPT FOR ONE ISSUE: I can't get past this amiable and friendly divorce! He wants to converse about it and plan for it as though we were planning a garden or landscape. I just can't do that so well and find myself retreating and withdrawing from further discussion (on a good day) or give short/terse answers regarding it...<P><B>My question for you, What do I do when faced with an obvious lovebuster (i.e. him talking about the divorce, how to start splitting up and how to tell the children, etc - anything to do with dividing this home) in a way that demonstrates my disdain for this decision and without enabling him or showing him that I want this? </B><P>I mean, I feel I've bent over backwards to accommodate his <I>needs</I> - in that I've moved to Chicago b/c he's got a job here, co-signed on a mortgage in a duplex, etc. I'm settling the kids in before I find our how much time I will have and where I'm going to work. I follow his lead... though I don't like where he's leading me!<P>I mean there is such a concept of reaping and sowing... there have got to be natural consequences to this behavior... or do I just suck it up all in the name of PLAN A? How can I explain myself...!?<P>Is this my "taker" coming out or as Sisyphus has said am I just capitulating to <B>HIS</B> taker? <P>I've heard you say, WFH, to keep our own taker into a coma... so if that's the case... how do I act responsibly and reasonably given my true nature and goal to want to do what I can not to alienate him any further? AND in my dreams... cultivate the ground for a NEW relationship - hopefully with him. I want the old one to die!<P>Steve H. talked with him once (a one hour appt that stretched into two) and told me that his walls are way up... and that I need to chip chip chip away at them.<P>Your thoughts are most appreciated as I'm feeling so frustrated now and don't even want to be near him 'cuz I'm afraid I may lovebust in some way!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

I know what you're going to say, "Let go and Let God!"<P>eerghh! I know I know...<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

That is an interesting dilema. What has Harley said about it??

Steve was telling my that my past LBing behaviors, that stemmed from expectations of my H, have alienated him. My H has admitted that he has learned to protect himself.<P>Okay, I know it sounds like I'm some sort of ogre here but if you would speak to those who were close to us and saw our marriage from the outside in, none of either of our behavior was pathological... (e.g. abuse, addiction - to my knowledge, physical affairs, etc.). We just didn't have the basic skills to communicate so we would back each other into corners and come out with all guns. A regretable pattern.<P>So, Steve said although he understood my trepidation about going to Chicago, he felt as long as I had a chance I should try with my H. He knows my H's walls are way high... he also knows that my H has contradicting views - e.g. he asked him, do you believe people can change. H replies yes. Do you believe your wife can change or your relationship can change? Absolutely not. <P>Even today he said it's been dying for a long time and death hasn't come. I told him that life is seasonal and we've been going through winter. After winter, there is Spring. He said, "Some things don't make it." I agree with that as long as there is not one shread of life left in that organism.<P>I also equated our marriage to an apple tree in that some years it yields many fruits. And some years it's dormant, and some years it's diseased or infected with worms. It's up to the gardener to prepare the tree and prevent any known illnesses that could attack the tree in the Spring so that in the final stages, it yields fruit.<P>My H's father said in our wedding ceremony, "A tree does not eat of it's own fruit." To the degree our marriage is healthy, the spouse will be robust. Well, being overseas and not having regular interaction with a community of people who could spot the problems... we let infection go untreated in our marriage... H now believes the damage is irreparable.<P>My deal now is, how do I face this amiably and willingly when I don't believe we've given it a fair shot - he feels he's given it all he has. He wants to discuss the breaking up of our home in bits... maybe he's testing me to see how I'll treat him in an area that he KNOWS I'm in disagreement with. My old patterns would be to get angry or to pout or to run away... I am trying to change that (my reaction) but the stimulus is still there and I'm struggling with finding a positive way to deal with the conflicting opinions here! <P>It's a huge love buster for me... but he could care less about the MB principles so how do I manage this? Ya know, sometimes I think we're re-entering the "conflict" mode after having been in withdrawal and I start to panic at this point!...<P>Any ideas on how to make a PLAN in conflict stage after having been in withdrawal for so long...? It's like stimuli are coming in all directions and the old patterns want to rear their ugly heads... Plan A has made me aware of my old patterns but it's hard for me to respond responsibly when I still feel so strongly against his decision. Thoughts?<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Well, part of the lesson here is that your H is trying to see if you will get back into the old dance, and you have already said that you see that the old dance steps would have been to get angry, to pout, or to run away. The challenge is for you to learn some new dance steps!<P>On the one hand, you do need to stay true to yourself and how you feel about this divorce, yet the fact remains that this divorce can proceed and can happen whether you participate amiably or not. That is a fact. My general observation for myself has been, when my old dance steps don't seem to be working, that usually means that I need to do the exact OPPOSITE of what I had been doing in the past. If your old dance steps were to get angry, to pout or to run away, I suggest that you do the exact opposite. <P>Have you ever considered being considerate and polite rather than being angry? If he wants to talk about how to split up things, and he's used to you getting angry, imagine how shocked he'll be when you politely say, "I do not agree with proceeding with this divorce, but out of consideration I will talk to you about (this one topic). Out of consideration for me, I ask that we keep it to just this one topic." <P>If your old dance step was to pout, why don't you instead try a twist and be honest and not withdraw? Let him know that you do not want to proceed with the divorce, but that you are mature enough to deal with it. Since he's being amiable, ask him to move forward slowly, in tiny steps.<P>Lastly, if the old dance step was to run away, here's a wildly radical idea: why don't you initiate this discussion? (It's crazy, I know!!) Here's the benefit you will get, though--you will be able to talk about it when you want to, when you have had a little time to prepare your heart, where you want to, etc. You can call the shots. Also, it will be a HUGE demonstration that you have radically changed. The trick is, to let him know that you have heard him request this discussion several times, and that although you still disagree with continuing this divorce, you are willing to maturely honor his request. <P>Well...just a couple ideas. It's awful scary, though, isn't it? <P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

{{{{{ Nicole }}}}}<BR> Wow, FIL had a really deep insight there! I like that one, I'm stealing it!<P> Of course, its totally natural not wanting to discuss the D...another ugly D word comes to mind.....I know it well, and so do you, Nicole. (Its okay, really.) Life on the other side....you know that I am 'ahead' of you there, and I am happy to report that there is. Its not the same at all, but it is something. It is better to stop dancing, and on Sunday, I think I came to the next step. I let XW in the house, and she 'behaved herself' for over 30 minutes. I still had to ask her to leave, but she knew it was coming, and had a REJECTED look on her face, not sure where THAT came from! She asked if I had anything that I wanted to talk about! I said, no. Strange ride, this one.<BR>I am posting on my thread tonight, come over and visit.

I agree with faithful.....good ideas. You might also simply tell your H that such discussions are very depressing for you, and you need time to prepare to have one. Then scheduel a weekly (or whatever) meeting on this subject. Therefore his need to talk is met, your need not to be ambushed is met, and you have a chance to still respond differerntly (when upset) than you did in the past.

CJ - AWESOME! I will try it. I did that once before tried to do just the opposite but it wasn't sustainable over the long haul. I will re-try that approach. I like it. Instead of thinking of consequences, be more proactive and give myself a second and think of the opposite. LOVE your specifics. THANKS! He is seeing if I'll fall into the old patterns and without re-scripting things in my mind, I'm tempted to do just that. Your words have been very helpful.<P>WFH - I'll be right over. Thanks for checkin' in here. THO, I'm wondering if you shouldn't start a new post as I've seen many accusations of cliques... I hope that this is not what we've got... it's just an ongoing story that anyone is welcome to join in! GREAT with your wife. You are implementing Love Must Be Tough for REAL! I'm so excited for you! Keep your expectations in check though. You're doing this for yourself, your kids and to maintain any vestige of love you have left for her. That's what the boundaries ARE for, not to punish... I MUST remember that!<P>SnL - thanks for your advice. I think that's it... I HATE being ambushed as I usually come out very defensive to buy myself some time to prepare my heart for it. We do discuss these things in a much better way when we IM each day over the internet. It reduces 85% of the face-to-face emotions of it. <P>You guys are so great! I don't know where I'd be without all the input from faithful friends!<P>Happy Independence Day! Hey, by the way, ACE needs a hug... he's a hurtin' guy and is so lonely. He sometimes can be tough in his delivery but underneath it all is the man God created who's been wounded... not unlike any of us. Check him out... I'm worried about him.<P>Thanks AGAIN!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Yes, Ace does...he's in Chicago...thinking about getting together with him soon, he needs someone of like circumstances now.<P>Yes, I am starting a new thread tonight. I'm not wantint too many pages, its confusing!<P>I had not answered that question about the Taker being in a coma...no, I think that has nothing to do with your taker, Sisyphus is right....but I'm not sure its capitualtion...what I feel is (and it is not right, but....) why do my so-called friends allow/condone HER actions...and why do they insist that I am physically present when she and OM/former rfriend, and their ilk are there? I am not making a statement of being in a cave...I do go there, just not when they are there...Its pure Plan B to me, wouldn't you say? This is a big thing...I have not validated her position, she KNOWS that...she KNOWS why...she IS moving...but I am still a skeptic at this point...no danger there. I am more concerned about what this ALL says to the general populace about ALL SIX OF US. I get very sympathetic looks/responses, not sure what she gets. I don't like being the subject of people's pity, you know?

Hi WFH...<P>Yes, I know. I figure if you get too much pity, what happens when/if reconciliation takes place? And also your point, what kind of looks is she getting?<P>I was thinking about that tonight while at that party... it would be really easy for me to look like the martyr or victim in this case... I'm not convinced fully that I do qualify for victim status somewhat... but I don't want HIM to be disrespected! No one has walked a mile in HIS shoes so they can't possibly understand what has happened that has made him take this course of action.<P>The same with Teri... your Plan B is sound and you're raising eyebrows with her... NO ONE ELSE COUNTS! I've found that getting strokes from others - oh poor you - are NOT sustainable! It's awful being pitied. So, chin up... you sound like you're making the best of things and even more!<P>Hey, check out the thread started on the other page - EN on Lust, the framework under the impulse. It's higher level thinking that I think I'd better tread but I'm trying to understand that... because I think part of my problem has been LUST and lack of emotional intimacy with my H... I've GOT to figure this out!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

OvrCs,<P>I'm probably not the one to give advice on this matter since my divorce will be final in 4 days. But here are a couple of observations that I made in our process. My wife wanted that whole friendly amiable divorce talking too. I did try to avoid it for a while, then one day I embraced it. You could say that I called her bluff and I did a complete 180. I figured that if it was going to be over then I should start looking out for my girls and myself.<P>First off, this really caught her off guard and she became the one who was uncomfortable talking about it. We sat down and worked out a whole bunch of agreements.<P>Secondly, none of the agreements that we made are being followed. Once she decided to get involved in the legal process everything that WE agreed upon without the advise of our lawyers became trash.<P>So I guess what I'm saying is that before you talk about any issues it would probably be wise to consult with a lawyer. I know that this isn't what you want but at some point you are going to have to look out for what's best for you. Your living arrangements may only be temporary and at any moment this could change from friendly to hostile.<P>Take care of yourself,<P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-