Hello cherished friends,<P>We are leaving today to go to TX for about a month. I havent posted much lately, however I have been struggling. I just dont know how to articulate myself with everything on my mind.<P>Things have been good here lately, H is trying, being affectionate, loving. It feels really good. I still have this nagging insecurity and mis-trust that wont go away. I still wonder and compare myself to OW. Was she prettier? Thinner? Just what was it in her that took him away from me? Turned him into something I thought he despised? <P>He kept this affair masked for so long. While he was having it, he was distant from me. But the distance was not new for us. So how do I know he is sincere now? <P>How can I tell he really wants 'us'? Not just humoring me to keep me here in Wa. This doubt REALLY sucks. I hate myself for having it when he has been so good to me. I have now what I have prayed and cried for for six months. <P>My dream come true.<P>And I am ashamed to doubt this. Couldnt ever mention it to him either. I wouldnt want to devalue everything he has been doing for me. <P>Is this just my burden to deal with? <P>Can anyone help me here?<P>In the midst of his affair he would still tell me occasionally that he loves me, and we were still intimate. He even told me one day, on his own accord he would quit seeing her. All to find out later on that he only said that to pacify me. He admmitted it.<P>So please tell me what is differrent now?<P>He's not into 'relationship talks', wont fill out the questionares here, wont read the concepts.<P>I was reading last night the post on EN from Dogbert about spiritually astute men. He came up and read it. Said its all a bunch of people whinning and moaning and going on and on and on about their selfish needs.<P>I became upset and said I am one of those whiiney people too. Then I went to bed.<P>So what now? Like he said a month ago, just forget about everything and move on? Am I being a martyr by being unable to let go of my pain?<P>HELP!!<P>Dara

Dara,<P>I feel for you and I am really torn as I read your post. You don’t have to justify or explain the hesitancy you feel toward your husband and his motives. You have been betrayed before and is ok to be a bit unsettled as you venture forward. Personally, I would feel a little mistrusting if your husband is not willing to work with you through any of the questionnaires or concepts this site has to offer. If nothing else, it could help give you some clarity as to why the affair happened in the first place and what drew your H to the OW. Somewhere along the line there was a breakdown and I can’t help but think that another affair wouldn’t be out of the realm of possibilities if you don’t get those issues identified. <P>IMO, most people who aren’t into “relationship” talks are this way because they either don’t know how to express what they are feeling or they don’t feel like their current relationship is worth the effort. If your H just doesn’t know how to express his feelings, then counseling will help. I had this problem during my marriage, mainly in the beginning stages because I was not good at expressing my feelings and instead of learning how to be expressive, I became defensive and shut my wife out even more. It has only been in the past year that I have realized that I can express myself and I’m not half bad at it either, although I will get better! I learned that I can be much more expressive by writing about my feelings than I can speaking of them for some reason, but as long as the words come out, it shouldn’t matter how they are delivered. Just as long as they are. <P>I understand that you have wanted your H back and now that you have him you are afraid to push him, but I think you need some answers. He betrayed you and it is now his responsibility to “fix” the damage he has caused. He owes you at least that much. Being honest with yourself, can you be happy in this marriage if nothing changes from how it is today? <P>Is there any chance that he would accompany you to counseling for YOUR sake? If you can at least get him there, a professional should be able to help.<P>I used to be in sales and there was a saying I heard many years ago which relates to many different areas. The saying goes like this, <I>“The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result.”</I><P>Remember that it takes two people to work on a marriage and no matter how hard you try or desire it, you can’t save it by yourself.<P>Wishing you the best &#61514; <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Learning as I go:<BR><B>And I am ashamed to doubt this. Couldnt ever mention it to him either. I wouldnt want to devalue everything he has been doing for me. <P>Is this just my burden to deal with? <P>Can anyone help me here?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Try not to be ashamed of your doubt. After all, your husband <I>did</I> lie to you, and so you have no basis for complete trust. Further, you have leftover insecurity from your childhood to contend with.<P>So, don't <I>nurture</I> the doubt, but don't feel guilty about it either...<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>He's not into 'relationship talks', wont fill out the questionares here, wont read the concepts.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>He may need some time to sort out his confusion before he is able to articulate his wants, needs, and feelings enough for such tools to be really useful.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I was reading last night the post on EN from Dogbert about spiritually astute men. He came up and read it. Said its all a bunch of people whinning and moaning and going on and on and on about their selfish needs.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Um...with all due respect to the participants (of which I was one briefly), I don't think that particular thread is the best example of what these forums are all about. I can see how it would be a turn-off.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>So what now? Like he said a month ago, just forget about everything and move on? Am I being a martyr by being unable to let go of my pain?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Very doubtful. These things take time. And effort.<P>My prescription: patience, Plan A, and empathy.<P>Oh, wait, I'm not licensed to practice...<BR>

Thank you so much Gnome and Jayhawk....<P>You both made a very important point to me...<P>Jay you said he may not be able to express his emotions/needs/wants/ desires. You are absoloutely right. He is a sensitive nurturing guy, but not the touchy feely type. He will go to counseling wtih me he said.<P>Gnome, yes he himself is confused about what he wants. I've asked, and he has just responded that he doesnt know right now. Admitted to his confusion. Is it just that I need closure? I've mentioned that idea to him, he said not to fret about it so much, as he is here with me..right here, right now.<P>Good point.<P>And yes insecurity is robbing me of the joy I shoulkd be experiencing presently. But he has always known about it, and I am sure is aware that it has been multiplied by his actions. He has been telling me alot how attractive he finds me, etc. It helps.<P>Anyways guys, he is loading up the truck now. Wish us a safe trip. Hopefully I can find a way to log on in TX.<P>You both seemed to intrisically empathatize with me. Thank you so much. I have wondered many times if I am being a baby by not being able to "get over it".<P>I know this wont be easy. But I am willing to try!!!<P>Love,<BR>Dara

Hi guys!!<P>Made to Texas, drove it straight, 42 hours or so. Beautiful drive.<P>I still feel the same as I did when I first posted this. I tried to mention it to H. He said that maybe we just need to start out "superficially", like all other realtionships do. Good point. <P>But I think I need some counseling. I am angry. I dont understand it either. My unforgiveness is robbing me of my joy. Its not that I am harboring this for no reason either; I cant even come to any sense of closure when he STILL says he did nothing wrong. Ok, making out in the back of his car all day and lying blah blah blah isnt wrong.<P>I checked out "Love and Marraige" by Harley. Forgiveness is hard enough, but when its not even asked for, or, even worse, I am expected to act like it never happened is hell.<P>I cant bring it up. I feel uncomfortable talking to him. WE went out the other night for some margarita's, and I just stared into space for an hour. Why? Because I didnt initiate any conversation.<P>How can there be forgiveness and compensation?<P>I am so afraid of this.<P>Love,<BR>Dara

duplicate, sorry<p>[This message has been edited by Learning as I go (edited July 10, 2001).]

Dara,<P>Glad you made it down to TX. It sounds like a really long drive so get some rest before you tackle any difficult issues.<P>You asked about forgiveness and compensation. Well, let me address the latter one. You will never get compensation of the sort you seem to think is justified. Just as you could never compensate him for your affair. You didn't even try if I recall correctly. However, I think you are missing something here.<P>Your H was involved in an EA if not an PA and he has chosen to stay with you and make the marriage work. However, that doesn't exempt him from feeling as sense of withdrawal. He is probably feeling it more than he will admit. So what you absolutely must do is not go back to behaving as you did in the past.<P>The "take it or leave it" , "whatever" approach to things may protect you abit, but it will hurt you big time in the long run. You have learned many things while posting here, please use them on your H. Love your H, show him your love, this is not a leger sheet, and you cannot balance things or receive compensation. What you can get is a better marriage than you ever have had before. It will take your work to begin with, but as H comes out of withdrawal and becomes fully aware of your love, I think you will see him respond.<P>As for forgiveness, you will feel like giving it when you are ready to, but remember this forgiveness is for yourself. Your H may or may not ask for it, but eventually his actions will warrent it and then you can forgive him.<P>Dara, you have a chance to have a much better marriage than you imagined. You have been given a second chance to show what you can do, so do it. Love him and show him the woman that has grown with this situation. The woman that can empathize with him, because she has been where he is and where he is going. The woman that loves him and her family and wants it to work.<P>If you show him this now, all of the doubts of the past will go away. Not over night but with time. <P>So Dara, Time and Patience, T&P. Use it well and enjoy your month in TX.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

Ah Heck, LAIG.<P>Go to a rodeo.. YeeeeeHHAAAAaaaaaaa!!!.. <P>Trust yourself. Take care of yourself. Dagone it, just take a breath and enjoy the sunset.. <P>Tex.

Hi <P>You wrote this while I was away from the computer -- it was four whole days Pure torture!<P>I am sooooooooo happy for you.... and forgiveness?... it will come... the forgetting part is the hard part, believe me. You'll one day just wake up and realize you forgive this man... I mean it. Pray about it, meditate on it... it will come.<P>Take good care of you and your Richard, Dara.<P>Best wishes...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<P>And we know. We who have seen. ~Pellegrino

Like 'K' posted somewhere about what Steve Harley said, Plan A is hard, Plan B is harder but you don't even know what hard is until you try reconciliation. <P>Don't give up.<P>Keep posting like you used to do just for the daily (no, hourly) dose of encouragement! It's going to take a lot of work... you still need to Plan A - no LBing, meet his ENs even though you feel you deserve some attention now. Maybe be "superficial" for a while until HE is ready to discuss... with the tension between the two of you, he's probably really feeling some withdrawal emotions... so one day at a time... hang in there.<P>Cheers!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

Hey friends,<P>Thanks for responding. Jl, I used the term "compensation" not in the selfish way. (Make any sense?) It is about Richard showing a willingness to resolve my hurt over his affair. You all say that forgiveness will come. To just keep loving him. I am trying. Sheryl, you are right, its not so much about forgiveness, because having him means more to me than an apology. It's about forgetting, letting go of the past. I have these flashbacks, if you will, or images of them together. OF the look in his eye when he wrote me that letter saying he is in love with her.<P>Of how naive I was to believe him when he called me months ago saying he would let her go. I am filled with doubt and mistrust. I dont expect that we will ever regain the 'blind trust' we once had, that I initially destroyed. But somehow, someway, I NEED a sense of closure from this. He still says he did nothing wrong. I asked him a couple of weeks ago about his relationship with her, and what brought him to leave her. He said that she was going to follow him, and that was too much. Thats it? I replied, had nothing to do with us? NO. <P>That really hurt me. Is he just with me because she 'wigged' out on him, and he couldnt make it alone in WA?<P>This dam doubt is pure hell. The images of them is as well. <P>He has said that it will take him some time, he feels confused right now. I've expressed my fear of things getting pushed under the rug to him. I've said that I want to know what will make him happy, what his needs are. He is in withdrawl, I can see that. So how to handle it in the meantime? JL, I will take your wisdom to heart. Just love him. You are an optimist my friend.<P>I took his sister to the doctor this am, and when I came back I asked if there was any breakfast leftover, we were hungry. He threw together a couple of breakfast taco's and practically tossed them on the table. I sat and talked to his mom and sister for abit w/o eating. Then I went outside. Arent you going to eat? No, not when the food is practically thrown at me. He said well you came in with an attitiude saying make me some breakfast I'm hungry. Not!! I explianed to him that I wouldnt be that rude, I was sorry if he misunderstood me. No apology or acknowledgment from him, he just walked off, and I've recieved the silient treatment ever since. So I split, and here I am at the library. <P>I cant help but think about how difficult this will be. I love this man with all my heart. In the last six months he has hurt me in ways I never thought possible. Cheated, lied, cruelty, etc. <P>So one day he says forget it, I wont leave you. We will forget about the past, and move on. So I am stuck in limbo here, fillied with doubt and mistrust.<P>I am sorry for the long post. These emotions are festering. And you all have become my family. Before I leave from here I will re-read your responses to me, and contemplate. I should be the happiest woman in the world right now.<P>Think about it. Your WS comes back to you, loving and affectionate. Says they will try. But expects you to completely forget about the agony they have put you through. Could you forget? And plan A?<P>Love,<BR>Dara

Oh Dara!<P>How young you are. You won't forget what has happened you never will forget it any more than your H can forget what has happened to him. Here is the trick though and it will take time for it to happen. You will never forget, but you will LEARN. 10-20 years from now you will look back on what you have done and what your H has done, and you will smile. Kind of a bitter sweet smile. Bitter because you two could have handled things differently. Sweet because inspite of your ups and downs you learned what love is really about. You two will have learned to appreciate the strengths in each of you and laugh about the foolishness. <P>Your H probably thought you came in with an attitude, because he is looking for you to have an attitude. You probably did in the past, especially during recovery. He is very sensitive to you right now, more than you realize.<P>It has been my observation here that WS and BS adopt one of two survival attitudes: the shell best described as the "whatever" approach or extreme sensitivity. Neither is optimal, but both are an attempt to protect themselves from feeling the pain they caused reflected back onto them.<P>Let's take the breakfast situation. Say you are aware that your H is feeling considerable guilt and confusion about things. What he has done is very much against his normal behavior. So how in the best of situations would you handle the situation?<P>He sort of slings the plates on the table. You are aware that he is not a happy camper. What to do? Thank him for the breakfast, eat the breakfast, and then get up go over to him, hug him or kiss him and thank him again. Then go on with activities as usual.<P>What have you done. You sent him a variety of messages: 1. You are aware of his discomfort about something. 2. You appreciate what he has done for you. 3. The body contact and the thank you say in front of everyone you still love him. <P>It seems to me this last one is a biggie right now. He is in withdrawal and to an extent he feels he is settling. The free and easy life of making out in a car with a girl with no strings attached or the woman he still remembers you to be. <P>But Dara you aren't that woman any longer. You are growing and learning. For the first time in years you actually appreciate what your H did for you when you strayed. You have learned to appreciate what he went through to stay with you. And you are in a unique situation. You can show him that you are as strong and loving as he is.<P>Now I won't go as far as to say that your affair was a good thing. But I will say use your affair as a good thing, learn from it and apply the many things you have learned in reverse.<P>Never miss a chance to tell him you love him. Never miss a chance to touch or hold him. Thank him for the things he does for you and the children. What the two of you need to learn more than anything, is that neither of you are perfect, but you to can learn to heal and help each other through life. That is the essence of love Dara.<P>I know this doesn't sound very romantic, but if you read here most affairs start and continue because two people come together and help each other, empathize with each other, and then they are IN LOVE. It happened when you met Richard, and it happened when you were with his friend. It happened when Richard was hurting and he met is OW.<P>Dear Dara it will happen in your marriage don't fear. In fact, I think you need to realize something. If you were willing to leave your H before, then you have little to fear in staying in the marriage. You know you can make it on your own, but you would prefer to make it with him. He will come to the same conclusion with time.<P>You two can be much happier together than apart, but it will take some time and healing. So when things get sort of bad, just sit back and smile. My favorite saying for such situations is: "It figures." Meaning yeah this is normal and what do you expect.<P>I guess I am trying to tell you to rise above this. You know how he is feeling going through withdrawal. You know deep down there is love for you and not the OW (he wouldn't have freaked about her coming down there otherwise). Knowing all of this are you surprised about his behavior? Having read here are you seeing anything really unusual? Did you behave much differently during the early phases of your withdrawal from OM? I think you know the answers. <BR>They were no. So just sit back and let him heal and have confidence in yourself first and in that fact that you are a woman worth loving. Then show him you are a woman who can love.<P>I think things will be just fine. He will talk with you. He will and already does recognize his failings. I suspect as he heals he will be able to accept his role in things, I suspect he already does. But is afraid to open up that much and give you full control of his life. I suspect he fears that you will control him.<P>So chill out. Show affection to him. Enjoy your month down there. And realize that time and patience will work.<P>God Bless,<P>JL<P><BR>PS: One last thing I forgot. Please understand that most of the things he is doing are not to hurt you. He is doing them because he is hurt. So don't take personally the many manifestations of his attitude right now. He is still in the fog and will come out of it. This is part of growing up. Not taking things personally, that really have more to do with the other person than you.<p>[This message has been edited by Just Learning (edited July 11, 2001).]

Hi Guys,<P>Jl, thank you for the beautiful response. Why pay for counseling when I have you? <P>To update you JL from my last post things have been great. I DO very much so have a tendency to take things personally. But I have grown to realize that not everything is about me, or inflicted on me. The control I do have is my reaction. That I am working on diligently.<P>Things have been much better in the past week. I have gone back to work, which relieved some of the financial burden on us. So many times, he has caught me gazing at him with pure adoration in my eyes. He can read me like a book. The look in his eyes when he notices is amazement. I remember way back in the early years, even after the honeymoon period wore off, how he always took every moment to show his love for me. It surprises him to recieve it I suppose.<P>I know he has been filled with doubt about me, my intent, and probably much insecurity of us. So maybe, in time I will have the answers I seek. (His needs in me)<P>For now, I will heed your advice JL. Mellow out, and taked things as they come. I feel like the luckiest woman alive, so I suppose I need to start acting like it huh? <P>I found a picture of Richard, the girls and his mom, taken over last Christmas, framed. Beautiful picture, but this acute pain in my heart came along with my admiration. This was a period of time he was seeing her, and right before he told me he wants a D. It hurt like hell to feel that insecurity all over again, I just want to run from it. But I cant. More likely I can learn from it, and feel thankful instead of insecure.<P>Thank you all for bearing with me throught these long winded posts...as we are away from home now I must use the internet at the library. So I have a lot to say...ah-hem, when dont I have a lot to say.<P>JL, Happy Birthday, belated. I wish you many more, filled with joy and contentment. You deserve it!!!<P>Love To All,<BR>Dara

Dara,<P>It is so good to hear that things are going well. Enjoy yourself and your H. Let him know you do enjoy him. I think it is a big break through when someone realizes that often peoples actions are not about them, but the issues the people with the actions. It does change perspective on many things.<P>I hope you are enjoy SA, the good Tex Mex, and some HEAT.<P>SA is one of my favorite towns and I used to have relatives living there.<P>Thanks for the HB. You go through a stage where you don't want to see another one come, and then you get to the stage where you are happy so see another one come. I am not THAT OLD yet, but I don't worry about them anymore. <P>Have a good time and God Bless,<P>JL

Hi Dara,<P>What a lovely, lovely post!!<P>Dear Dara, you GOT IT, and you GOT IT in time!! Your marriage will SURVIVE!! How many of us wish we'd been able to do that!! <P>I am thrilled for you -- and I almost can't begin to tell you how much.<P>When you speak of the love in your eyes, the adoration -- tears over here, yes, you've made me cry -- because you and your Richard are so blessed to have found it again!!<P>God Bless you and Richard... now and forevermore!