I've posted a few times before so I won't go into my full story but I just re-read His Needs Her Needs and bought Love Busters to read for the first time this weekend. I just feel more confused than ever. I see very clearly that I didn't meet some of my husbands needs but I way overcompensated in some other needs that traditionally should be the "husband's needs". I didn't ask him for financial security or domestic support. I took care of these things so he wouldn't have to be bothered by them. I go way overboard trying to guess what would make him happy. He's been gone 4 months and very distant/miserable for 6 months prior to moving out. I thought we had a good marriage so I was shocked when he annouced "I'm not happy". His current behavior is so atypical of him. I don't even know who he is now but I've been so lonely and scared I continue to let him drop in and out on me and the kids as he pleases. I have not demanded money or for him to take the kids on his weekends off. Pretty much I've allowed him to do what he wants and accept no responsibility. What is bothering me now is that I don't think he is capable of meeting my needs. I've been fooling myself for years and even though I love him and want to be a family, I need more from him than what I was getting. How can I approach this. I did go to the library and check out His Needs-Her Needs for him but doubt he will read it. I just hoped he would see that neither of us was doing a good job of meeting emotional needs. We had grown apart but I thought that was just normal with kids ages 5 & 10 and all the things we have going on. Also he worked 3rd shift and weekends. His days off were during the week when I had to work. After reading HNHN again, I don't think we can make our marriage work. He is the one who left me and I acknowledge that I have my faults, however since he is not willing to try to work on our marriage but still thinks it's ok to take advantage of me emotionally,financially and physically, I don't know what to do. I swore I would not be the one to file for divorce but he apparently isn't going to ever make any progress towards a fair settlement. I guess as long as I pay all the bills, keep the kids and don't ask him to have conversation with me about important stuff, we could go on forever like this. However, how is that fair to me or our children. I need to establish some strong guidelines and stick to them but it makes me feel like I'm the bad guy and I'm afraid he will never try if he thinks I've given up. Then again, I could remain his doormat forever. Don't get me wrong, he hasn't been ugly to me during this whole thing ( if you overlook the abandonment, lack of financial support and ability to leave within 10 minutes of having sex making me feel more like a prostitute than his wife). We still don't fight. I really don't think he has any fight in him. I'm scared to say this but I really want someone to fight for me and for our marriage. It makes me incrediable sad that he doesn't care. I know each experience is individual but what is the general outcome when the BS finally stops the rollercoaster ride and forces their hand. Do most men just run or is it a wake-up call? I don't men to lump all men in one category and I would like to say that I have been very impressed by the postings of many of the men in this forum. I feel for everyone here and it is very enlightening to see "my story" from the male and female view. Thanks for the support .....L

((((....L))))<P>At the risk of getting flamed here is my opinion, I will not call it advice because I don't know enough to give you advice.<P>This is a decision that only YOU can make. You sound like a very strong and successful person. I'm sure that when it comes to your children that your perception is in tact and I'm sure that in your professional life that your perception is in tact. So I ask What is your perspective on your marriage, trust yourself when you answer.<P>His absolute lack of effort, especially with the children, quite frankly makes me sick to my stomach. But you are the one who has to set the "standard" for your emotional living. There are people here who have waited YEARS and I totally respect that and if I would of had that opportunity I probably would of waited years. But as my divorce comes close to it finally, I'm a wee bit relieved that I didn't have to continue living below my emotional "standard".<P>Bottom line, it's your decision to make and there will be people for you and against you whatever you decide.<P>Take care of yourself and your children.<P>Hugs, Kisses, Thoughts, & Prayers<BR><P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

Hello, Bill...nice post.<P>I agree with Bill...but you know, something that HNHN, and a lot of others fail to mention....most men have a need to be the provider...its pretty much a requirement...if it is not happening, it causes the things you mention. He has not realized that that is his trouble? (PRIDE)<P><BR>P.S. Go Braves!<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 06, 2001).]

W-F-H I was so excited to see the Go Braves at the end of your post. No offense Bill, I really appreciate your words of encouragement in your post too. I am just a huge Braves fan. Jordan is really on tonight, but I guess that's a subject for a whole different website... Anyway, I thought about the "PRIDE" thing too and even though I do make slightly more than him on an annual basis, I devote my entire salary to our marriage while he only put in less than half of his salary. I don't know why I allowed this to go on. When we first got married he put his whole check towards bills(of course he had a car payment and a truck payment then too) Anyway, over the next 12 years he received many raises but he didn't contribute this money to the marriage. This has always been a great source of frustration for me but not enough to deal with it, I guess. I'm just a wimp when it comes to asking people for help. I don't know where my marriage became solely my resposibility but I allowed it to become that. I don't think my husband's problem is pride. I think it is laziness. He was perfectly content to let me treat him. Unfortunately it is my personality to be a people pleaser/doormat. I've made being taken advantage of an exact science. But I only have myself to blame. As long as I was content, why shouldn't he let me do everything. I loved introducing him to new things/places. Because he came from a background that was much poorer than mine financially, I felt bad asking him for his entire income. Sounds stupid now I know but this was just a habit I let develop and could not break. I met him the same year my parents divorce was final. I was so desparate to find someone who could love me and fill the need I had for a stable family. I also wanted someone who was not a "executive type" because I saw my father throw away my Mom's love to climb the corp ladder. I haven't ever thought that I settled until now. Looking back, I see how insecure my parents divorce made me. I was willing to sacrifice my identity for a stable marriage. My husband was a man I could trust. I always saw him as someone who honored their committments and would never hurt me. I wanted someone who I could make happy. It didn't really matter if he made me happy because I got happiness from making him happy. It sounds so bizarre now. I suppose I did take advantage in our marriage by being the primary decision maker. However, to avoid conflict, I just handled things. As I said before, he always liked this about me or at least I thought so. I usually asked for his input on things but got the "it doesn't matter to me" or "whatever you think" generic answers. I had a great desire to make plans together but when I got no input repeatedly I just assumed he didn't care. I also didn't mind taking care of the financial stuff because I liked not having to justify where every dollar went. I saw my mom have to ask permission to buy shoes or new sheets, whatever, and didn't want to have to live in that enviroment. However, I really screwed up by failing to involve him at all. He couldn't even tell you who our mortage is with or how the car is financed. oops.... I have told him very often that I don't handle things because I think he's not capable of it, I just thought I was making him happy. Guess what, I was wrong. However, he stills denies that any of this bothers him. The best I can get from him is that he blames me for his depression and felt like I cared more for my job than him. I worked really hard to provide a good lifestyle for us and our kids but not only for the money. I really enjoy my job. I like being in a service industry and helping people. My job gave me a sense of self-pride because it is the one thing I know I'm good at. I never claimed to be a great wife or a great mother but my job provides some self-esteem that I desparately need. Did I mention I also work for my Dad??? That adds a whole new twist I know. Braves are losing now so I better get back to the game. Thanks for the support. One thing I have realized is my incredible need for conversation. This forum has helped me meet that need. I just wish I could be more efficient with my words. I know these long posts must get irritating. Please be patient with me. I'm still learning!! and boy do I have a lot to learn. L<BR>

Well, when I saw you were a Braves fan, I just had to...don't follow too closely anymore, but I still like'em.<P>I don't agree with your H, but then again, neither do you! I do agree that he is depressed, but the why part isn't you, its him. I get depressed ALOT, too. I'm depressed today because I am divorced from a woman that I love very much, and she is dating a guy that claimed for nearly two years to be a friend...I am also depressed today, because I am umemployed, about to lose my house (very soon), and my children are clueless about, well, mostly everything. They are good kids, don't get me wrong....Now, why am i depressed? Because I let all of that happen TO ME. Same for him. Oh, don't bother admitting to it...that would be too easy! He needs to realize a few things about himself.<P>I am sorry that you have to carry his cross, that's not fair. You are, I'm sure, a wonderful, caring, lovely human being, and he is BLIND, and maybe a little emotionally handicapped. If he continues, he will find his emotions, alright. Again, I'm sorry...for this post, too.<P>Life isn't pretty, that's for sure. I'm hating mine right now, but I would not trade it for something else. I'm not sure why, but I just wouldn't.

So, L...how are you? I missed the Braves vs. Orioles because I was playing Donkey Kong with my 6 year old...I won, how'd Atlanta do? I've been anxious to 'hear' how things are...I am just like to listen. Your posts convey your personality very well, I think...so wassup? -Mike

I agree with what the others have said. <P>As far as your children are concerned. They deserve financial and emotional support from their father. And sometimes you have to force the issue.<P>p.s. peoplepleaser, Could you please put some space in your posts? It would make them much much easier to read.<P>Kate<BR>

waiting_for_her said,<P>"most men have a need to be the provider."<P>I read that others said this, but is this really an issue for most men. Or is it just that most of the men who post on this board are BS's, and therefore more likely to be committed to their families? If this is true, how come so many fathers abandon their kids financially?<P>My H left us for a woman with more money, and I don't think it was a coincidence. One of the things he complained about after he left (though never mentioned while he was still here) was that I had not gone back to work after our sixth child was "older" - she was three when he left. He insisted that having our kids finish college was important to him, but then suggested that our oldest drop out after he lost his job, and has refused to contribute to their tuition since then. <P>He has been unemployed for over a year. I am sure that not being able to find a job in his field has not done anything for his self-esteem, but the man he used to be would have taken any job by now. During the six weeks of unemployment that occurred during our marriage, he willingly took a temporary, minimum wage job involving heavy labor. <P>I think what he really cares about is having enough money to live comfortably, and he would just as soon have someone else provide it.

Absolutely...I did not arrive at that conclusion after becoming a BS...its the way that it is. Recall that I said we had a need to, its not a forgone conclusion that we will be a provider. You know, people have a wide range of problems that prevent them from doing what the basic nature intends, and each person 'stacks' their needs differently...and that changes, too. I will say that if the family does not provide various things for him, then that will happen, too...it is his <B>perception</B> that I am referring to, here.<P>I guess that what <I>I</I> meant to say is:<BR> With all things being equal in <I>his</I> mind, a man will <B>desire</B> to be a provider for his family...is that any better? -Mike<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 13, 2001).]

Hi peoplepleaser:<P>I am going to be rather strong in my opinions right now. I don't want you to take it as a personal attack ok? Take what you like, leave the rest!!!!<P>As I read your post, the first thing that went through my head is that <B>you</B> are responsible for the problems that you are experiencing right now.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>His current behavior is so atypical of him. I don't even know who he is now but I've been so lonely and scared I continue to let him drop in and out on me and the kids as he pleases. I have not demanded money or for him to take the kids on his weekends off. Pretty much I've allowed him to do what he wants and accept no responsibility. What is bothering me now is that I don't think he is capable of meeting my needs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Have you read Tough Love by Dobson? Not only do you drive your H away by trying to appease and placate him, but by trying to appease your H - by making a doormat of yourself, by allowing your H to do whatever he wants with no consequences, you are ENABLING him to continue his current behavior. Why would he stand up and start taking responsiblity? He's got the freedom of a single guy, the benefits of a wife and family, and NONE of the responsiblity!!! He's got it made!!<P>I suspect, that along with your doormathood, you are also quite the controlling manipulative type. I'm guessing, because I have the same problem. Oh wait, I just re-read your post, YEP, "main decision maker". You let your fear run over you and your H, and take up the reins of power in your marriage. <P>Right now, I think trying to educate your H about MB is totally a waste of time. I think that <B>you</B> need to take a very good hard look at yourself, and start working on <B>you</B>. Can you get yourself into counseling?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Looking back, I see how insecure my parents divorce made me. I was willing to sacrifice my identity for a stable marriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Can you get a copy of Judith Wallerstein's book called "The Unexpected Legacy of Divorce"? This book delves pretty deeply into the serious emotional and psychological effects of divorce on children. It's written for adult children of divorce. It may help you start to identify your issues so that you can start working on them.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>however since he is not willing to try to work on our marriage but still thinks it's ok to take advantage of me emotionally,financially and physically, I don't know what to do. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Yes, you need to get into counseling to determine how to draw boundaries that are to protect yourself, rather than to manipulate or control your H. It's very hard to learn how to do this, thats why I suggest counseling. When I first learned to draw boundaries, I did them all wrong. I used boundaries to try to force outcomes and reactions. I used them to manipulate others into doing what I wanted. <P>Instead, you need to learn how to let go of other people, and protect yourself. You need to learn how to fill YOUR OWN needs first, before you can expect or ask your H to start filling them.<P>Your H isn't going to "fight" for you or your marriage. Why should he? For years, you've been running your marriage, and his life. He hasn't been forced to deal with life on life's terms, you've protected him from it all. As a result, he hasn't had to "grow up". He's a little kid that wants what he wants and isn't interested in responsiblity. Why would he fight for something that you have already given him? It's your fears that are ruling your decision making. Your fear of being abandoned is causing you to give him all of the benefits of marriage without requiring that he do the work first!<P>You can't fix your H right now. The best thing you can do for your marriage is to work on your issues. You have quite a few. I can't imagine that your H would be interested in working on the marriage with you acting the way you are. Let him go, focus on you.<P>((((hugs))))<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Hey there Waiting for Her. I suppose I should have called myself waiting for him because that is what I seem to do. I is really funny you should have said you were playing DK. I had a mild addiction to DK64 when we first got it 2 yrs ago.My H used to joke I was secretly in love with "Lanky". <P>The braves looked good last night hitting 4 home runs. It was a big tribute game to C Ripkin Jr. I didn't watch the all star game as I've started a new yard project. Due to having small children, a full time career and knee surgery twice in the last two years, I've let my yard go down the drain. My H still cuts the grass but I have over 3 acres to take care of. It is kindof nice because I have found that keeping busy helps me focus on being a better more productive person, rather than an abandoned spouse, boo, hoo, hoo....<P>Rereading HNHN and Love Busters has really opened my eyes. This forum has too. Thanks again for your support. I am praying for God's peace in your life and mine. For now, I'm hanging in there week by week, trying to better myself, show my H that I can be a good mother, enjoy my job, and keep up with my housework too. It is really hard and somedays I almost lose it, but then I think the sweetest revenge is being happy and productive even without him. The post with the quote from Dr. Dobson really struck me. He is the one who isn't seeing the kids and who isn't getting the benefits of his wife's love. I guess he may have found someone else to provide some needs of his.( I really do need to get that P.I.) My crying and begging was only making me a basket case and driving him further away. I think he saw me as a work-a-holic, fat, lazy procrastinator who didn't care about housework or him. <P>I of course saw myself as a mother, wife and financial supporter. Housework never was my thing but I was paying his mom to clean twice a month. I've always thought a clean house was a sign of a misspent life. I'm starting to change my opinion. I guess it is more important to some people than others. I never really thought about how it affected him.. Don't get me wrong, we didn't live in a trash dump. We just have 2900 Sq ft and it's alot to keep clean. I'm already at a disadvantage because his mom never worked and was a clean fanatic. She was also very controlling and the major decision maker in their family. I suppose this is one of the reasons he didn't object to me taking on the same role. He was used to it. I don't think he ever wanted to be the provider. He liked his spoiled life. <P>I have noticed a small change in his attitude since I confronted him about the possibility of OW. He denies anything of course but did invite me to the movies with the kids that day. We had a good afternoon but I just left it at that. Last weekend he called early Sat am and said once he got up he would come over to see kids and cut the grass and that we could all go out to eat together or I could get some steaks to cook at home. <P>At least he included me in the plans which is something he had not done before. He also told our 5 yr old son we would put the tent up in the backyard and all of us could camp out one night when he didn't have to work.<P>This was a real shocker. Maybe there is hope yet. I just try not to worry so much about it. It will drive me nuts trying to read between the lines and interpret his actions. Very few have made any sense so far. I am afraid of becoming the doormat by continuing to let him be in control of when he will see the kids, etc. I may have mentioned this before but he seems to be avoiding taking our D to his new place. He knows she will be able to tell<BR>me where it is and if he is living with this OW or how much time he spends with her and her D. <P>I'll just have to see what tomorrow brings. He plans to come over and help me with the yardwork. I hope I can make it through the day. He is very quite and private and I am very loud and words pour out of me like water through a colander. I Guess you all know that by now... <P>I am supposed to be working so I gotta go. I will check on everyone over the weekend. Please remember what a blessing you are to me and the others in the same situation. <P>L

BrambleRose,<P>I guess you were posting while I was replying to W-F-H. I had not read your post yet at that time but I think I must have figured out the same things you did from my previous posts. I am in counseling and have been since December. I am also on meds to combat my own depression. I hate taking pills but when I commit to it and do it right, it really helps. I have switched to more of a self-focused role. I see how my actions have affected my husbands opinion of me. I just have a hard time changing my nature. I am a very giving person who has always thought more of others than myself. Even when I was young, I spent my allowance of things for my mom or dad or friends. I really care about making people happy. I sometimes come off as trying to by people's love by sending presents,etc. I don't want it to seem that way. I just know that if I was to get a card or note or small token of appreciation from someone it would make me really happy. Therefore, I turn that around by doing those things for the people in my life. I do need to pay better attention to becoming the doormat for others to step on. It has happened to me repeatively and often in the past year. My best friend, who I worked with for 5 years, and talked to everyday at work and in the evenings, walked out of my life by quitting her job without notice and leaving me holding the bag. I know she thought she had to do what she had to do but it just wasn't right. I would have never treated someone the way she treated me. It made me realize that some people(mostly those I know) are self-centered and do not truly care about me if it is causes them any trouble. I have had a real hard time learning to trust people again. Of course 2 months after she quit my H decides he can't stand living with me anymore. I don't want to turn into a self-centered B***h. I want to be a person people can trust and love. <P>I will work on myself. I can be a better person but I still have the need to help others. That will never change. I just need to figure out how to do that without being taken advantage of. <P>Wish me luck and thanks for the book references. I am trying to read as much as I can these days.<P>L

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Your H isn't going to "fight" for you or your marriage. Why should he? For years, you've been running your marriage, and his life. He hasn't been forced to deal with life on life's terms, you've protected him from it all. As a result, he hasn't had to "grow up". He's a little kid that wants what he wants and isn't interested in responsiblity. Why would he fight for something that you have already given him? It's your fears that are ruling your decision making. Your fear of being abandoned is causing you to give him all of the benefits of marriage without requiring that he do the work first!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>BR, a lot of this paragraph describes me too! I've been overly accommodating in many ways similar to peoplepleaser. The interesting twist in my situation is where the control lies. My H complains that I am very controlling. From my perspective, I ended up with a lot of "stuff" (like keeping the checkbook, doing the groceries, kitchen duty etc etc) because my H flatly refused to participate in things he didn't want to participate in. I've been in counselling since November, and it's been quite an eye opener. The C says that my H is taking a passive role in a lot of ways, and that sort of positioning is very powerful form of control. <P>It raises the question of who's "running the marriage." Peoplepleaser, I agree with BR that learning how to set boundaries (properly) is important. It's not easy. You need to protect yourself. It's very possible that your own actions have indeed been manipulative and controlling. The same could be true of your H. After all, if PP's "has it made," who's the most likely person being manipulated? Just my 02 cents<P>Well, make it 03 cents. PP, you mentioned that your H may not be capable of meeting your needs. I believe that my own H isn't capable of that either. My C thinks he may suffer from depression, and that will make him "hampered" as she so diplomatically phrased it.

PP, you describe your situation so eloquently that I was really able to see myself. I hate to think of myself as "controlling" but once my H started with the OW he openly complained about how he felt like I was the mommy and he was the little boy. I had always felt that he put me into this role because his mother is very controlling, especially toward his dad. I also recognized recently that there's a lot more power in that passive controller role than is immediately apparent. <P>It made me feel "good" to pick up all the slack. We own a company together. He was the boss. I was the boss's wife. But now that he's gone, I'm running it alone. I really don't think he could have done it alone because he knows nothing about what I did. So there are two sides to the dilemma. On the one hand I felt like a martyr but on the other hand I felt incompetent and dependent. Now I realize I put myself in the martyr role to feel "better than" in a bad situation (My H is an alcoholic and highly verbally abusive) and that I'm not incompetent. In other words, I'm learning to recognize that I'm in control of my life, not a victim.<P>Anyway, thanks for your posts, and thanks to those who responded. It's been very eye opening.

Thanks everyone for your continuing support. I appreciate BR's candid honesty and I do know I have alot to work on for myself to be a stronger person. However, I don't think I was controlling on purpose. I never told my husband what he had to do or where he could or could not go. Early in our marriage he went fishing daily but I never said anything because it made him happy. He was much easier to live with and much more cooperative with yardwork, etc when he had time for his hobbies. <P>I suppose I don't really understand the concept of controlling this post refers to. I did control paying the bills but was not "in control" of the money. H only put in bank what he wanted to and put rest in safe that only he had key for. My income plus the approx half of his income I was given access to was not enough to cover all the misc things like insurance or vehicle taxes so I occasionally had to ask him for extra to pay those expenses. He also had a habit of buying & selling cars which I paid the taxes, tags, etc for and he kept all the profits when the car sold. Same thing for boats, motorcycles, tractors, etc.<P>I don't mean to make him out to seem so selfish because I don't think he really knew about our financial position. He didn't know about the credit card bills or how much the equity line payment was. Looking back it seems so silly why I didn't just sit down with him and lay it all out. <P>I have a serious problem asking people for help. I have some mental hangup about being independent and proving I can do it. Reality is I can't pay all our bills without his support and I surely can't take care of the house and yardwork, along with kid's homework, groceries, etc, etc...<P>I do know that someday's this Plan A stuff sucks. I have been working all week on removing a chain link fence and doing some landscaping, weedeating and stuff. He shows up yesterday and helps for about 3 hours. He acts like he is somewhat embarrassed that I've had to do all this work by myself. I'm proud that I've been able to accomplish so much alone too, but what I really wanted to say was " if you had gotten off your lazy [censored] at any time last year, things would not have grown up so bad" However, I just smiled and kept working hard for me and to show him I am not helpless or permenently lazy. <P>He refused to show me how to hook up the trailer to the tractor or how to crank the chainsaw. He said he would do what I wanted "whenever" he comes back by. I don't who is thinks is going to do these things after we are divorced. Is his new "neighbor" going to keep letting him spend time with his old wife helping her?? I don't think so. He just doesn't understand that he left us. That means he has no right to say what I do or how I accomplish it. I'm not allowed to ask him for help but somehow this work is just going to get done by magic. Again, I don't think so. <P>Excuse me for my poor mood. I'm just very tired from all this yardwork in 90+ degree temps and very sad that the yard is looking so good and I have no H to share the accomplishment with. How can I be some darn independent on one hand and so needy and desparate for companionship on the other. I just don't get it. <P>I'm gonna take the kids to the movies today and pick up the oil filter for the tractor he told me to. I don't want him to come back home out of guilt or pity but I do want him to understand the emotional damage he has done to me and his kids. This plan A stuff is hard. I'm so used to saying exactly what I think ( not always a good way to win friends and influence people, I know). I like the fact that I feel better about myself and that I'm making progress on some of the way overdue projects around the house. One the otherhand, it is getting harder to get all my job work done in 35-37 hours a week. I want to be a good mother and a good employee but I need assistance with the kids. They are too young to stay alone and they drive me nuts when I take them to the office. Is it against the Plan A rules to insist on H having them so many hours per week, regardless of his work schedule? I'm really afraid about school starting back. There just will not be enough time for everything without 2 parents. I know there are many many single mom's out there who do it but I just don't think I can. <P>Guess I'll just keep plugging along, day by day, prayer by prayer. God says He has a hope for me and a future so at least I know He hasn't given up on me.<P>L

Hi PP,<P>Your post caught my eye. Now that I've read it, and re-read it I'm all confused.<P>BrambleRose - what she said to you could also be exclusively for me. <P>I don't think I was deliberately controlling or manipulative but I'm sure he sees it that way. He had his time with the boys, weekends away for fishing trips, was never questioned about money etc etc etc.<P>But when I asked for a little of his time, and made it clear that I was dissatisfied with the breakup of his time (ie the amount he devoted to work, basketball practice, the boys etc) and the fact that there was none for his family - well, you would have thought I had - oh I don't know what - but it wasn't good!!!<P>I'm goint to print this post off, and try to get my head around it.<P>But suffice to say PP, I know exactly how you feel. I thought that by putting my H first, his career first, our marriage first, our children first, I was making everyone happy. But deepdown, I wasn't happy. And when I explained all this to him, he couldn't handle it. I got the usual platitudes "I'll change" or "I'm sorry it won't happen again" or "I won't work so hard and then where will we be"<P>And then he bailed. I guess I was questioning too much. Letting him know in no uncertain terms that I was dissatisfied. But at least I was communicating. I wanted to change things. He obviously didn't. And that brings me to the topic of your post. If he doesn't want to try, how long do we wait. I repeatedly heard when I asked him if he wanted to try to make our marriage work that his heart wasn't in it. But yet he wouldn't sign the divorce papers. I had to get a lawyer to file for me. And then on the day of the divorce he turned up in court when he didn't have to, and sobbed to my father as if his heart was breaking. I still can't figure him out.<P>Except to say he now has the best of both worlds. Free access to his children, no responsibilities to a wife (although he has just moved in with his gf) and all the time in the world to behave as if he were a single unencumbered man. I guess one day the penny will drop. But when that day will be is anyone's guess.<P>I think family life just got too hard for him, so he bailed. What a man.<P>anyway, I'll try and talk more when I had more time to digest this post, I have so many thoughts swirling round this head of mine.<P>have a great day<P>Jo

See, now this thread is doing more of the same thing that <B>does not work</B>. I am glad that we can vent out frustrations with our spouses' refusal (collective) to 'do the right thing'. That just feeds the fire, folks. Why do you think the 'survival rate' of our 'species' is so low? WE DO NOT ADAPT TO OUR CIRCUMSTANCES...we just keep acting out the victim's role, raging, and hurting. Want to be in the 5% club? THEN CHANGE SOMETHING! Marriage conforms to the 'survival of the fittest' model, too.<P>Look, if he is happy, he will do the right thing...and when he is told <B>properly</B> that his actions are not right, he will attempt to correct them. You must find out his internal re-presentation of things....You need some fog lights. Once his model is known, you have a tool to help him, you, and the entire family.<P>Or, you could continue to be devastated by all of it, and react with actions/words and thoughts that will make things worse.<BR>IMHO -Mike<P>P.S. If I haven't totally pi$$ed you off...My 6 year old has a request...How do you get 'Tiny Kong' (the girl), and 'Krunchy Kong'? He is <I>very</I> anxious to know this!<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 18, 2001).]

W-F-H,<P>I'll be glad to help you with the DK just can't remember off the top of my head. When I get home, I'll send you a post with details. <P>I generally don't take offense to advise and/or your opinions. I absorb all I can and try to apply it as applicable in my life. I am however doing something about it. I went to the PI yesterday and I wrote one of those Tough Love letters to my H explaining I had not given up but there would be no more emotional blackmail, hissy-fits, breakdowns, etc. I'm hopeful we can rebuild our relationship slowly. I have seen signs of hope ( kissed me on cheek this morning and said love ya, bye) How bizzare is that??? Haven't even heard from him since Sat am and he shows up this AM and takes me and kids to breakfast. D had an ortho appointment so I wasn't rushing off to work. <P>Chunky is is a cage in the franctic factory section which isn't opened until you get so many keys. I can see Tiny standing in a cave behind bars, maybe in Jungle. I think I'll play for a while tonight and refresh the memory.<P>L.

All very good, and <B>thank you</B> on both counts!<P>After rereading my post, I never made it apparent that I was generalizing, not specifically making a federal case, but you know that the nature of our baclslides is very predictable, and frustrating! This applies to me, as well! I am interested in being in that 5% club, or at least being able to say that I acted in accordance with my value system, and kept my Taker out of it without killing my Giver...tough to navigate in my circumstances...and yours too, I suspect...Sam is thanking you for taking the time to help him...he's very impressed that you know these things..you know, its like splitting atoms to him...you are a goddess! -Mike

<small>[ August 06, 2004, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>