Tonight I am supposed to attend a big meeting with my STBXH's family, and he will also be there. I am currently still close to his family, and I see them fairly often, but H isn't usually there. I am required to attend because it concerns the children and my late father-in-law's will. I am worried about how I will act seeing my H. I usually end up in tears when I see him, and I don't think this accomplishes anything. I read BrambleRoses's thread about detaching with love and I think it helped me. <BR>When we see each other, he sends all kinds of mixed messages that throw me for a loop. I have finally come to the conclusion that he is trying to manipulate me.<P>I am hoping to be able to maintain my composure and act friendly. Like I would treat anyone else.<P> In the past my actions have been based on trying to win back his affection and/or to show him how much he is hurting us.<P>I'm trying to get beyond him to focus on what is best for me. I've finally realized I can't influence his feelings or actions. I've always thought that if you worked hard enough, that you could accomplish your goal. I finally realize that in this situation, no matter how bad I wanted it to work out, it takes 2 to tango, and he won't even come on the dance floor.<P>So my quandry is this: I want to act civilized towards him, (no more crying or angry words from me if possible) but I am afraid he will take this to mean that I have accepted his actions. He wants nothing more than for everyone to say that what he is doing is acceptable. (He doesn't understand why we can't all be friends and the kids and I happily spend time with the OW and her children!) I think he will take this change in my behavior as affirmation. The Detaching With Love thread said to stop creating a comfortable environment for unacceptable behavior. I am not sure how to do this and still quit showing him the hurt he is causing.<P>Any advice from someone who has been there?<P>Lisa

I can't offer any advice but I can say that I'm going through the exact same thing. My H moved out 4 months ago and refuses to even try to work on our marriage. I have gone from crying and begging for forgiveness of whatever I did to saying **** you and you'll hear from my lawyer. Currently I'm back to more of a Plan A type thing. I'm reading book and really looking into what I did that caused him to fall out of love with me. Don't get me wrong, I don't blame myself anymore because I know I've done all I can to try to make the situation better. It is so frustrating to be so angry and hurt but have to put on the happy face and pretend everything is ok. I also have a lot of fears about how my H will interpret my actions. I just found out that I couldn't stand myself after I went on one of my "how could you do this to us" speeches. I always seemed to go to far and even though I rarely yelled, I did say some hurtful things. I guess it's just human nature to try to hurt back those who have hurt you. Except, I've decided that I have nothing to gain by becoming a person that my H could not love. If my goal is for him to come back to the family, I have to be someone he would want to come home to. Of course, that leaves me in the exact same situation as a lot of folks in this forum..... limbo land.<BR>I think it comes in waves so hang in there and be strong. I also didn't think I could ever look at my H again without tears but I found tears really pushed him away and made him uncomfortable. I know he deserves to be miserable and I think he will someday figure out that a family is work and responsibility and hard times, but it is also loving memories, the joy of your children, and good times. He wants to avoid the bad and keep the good. One day he will figure out they are a package deal. Until then, I just plan to do my best and be true to God and myself and be someone who I can be proud of. While I have regrets from my marriage and not seeing it falling apart, I don't want to have any regrets in how I handle our separation/divorce.<BR>Good luck to you. Thoughts & prayers, L

Here's a long, but interesting article by Dr. James Dobson from his book Tough Love. I copied this from another link but don't remember where.<P>The standard approach to marriage counseling is to teach husbands and wives how to revitalize unhealthy relationships and help them work through their conflicts. Unfortunately, such advice assumes that both parties are equally motivated to work on their problems. That is rarely the case. Typically, when a marriage is unraveling, there is one partner who is less concerned about the prospect of divorce, while the other is terrified by it. At its worse, as in cases of infidelity, the drifting member often has little desire to engage in counseling, except perhaps as a pretence to lessen guilt or criticism. He or she may have decided already that the relationship is over. It has been my observation that the way the committed partner responds at that vital juncture will determine whether the marriage will survive or succumb. I'll explain why in a moment. <P>Only those who have been rejected by a beloved spouse can fully comprehend the tidal wave of pain that crashes into one's life when a relationship ends. Nothing else matters There are no consoling thoughts. The future is without <BR>interest or hope. Emotions swing wildly from despair to acceptance and back again. Nothing in human experience can compare with the agony of knowing that the person to whom you pledged eternal devotion has betrayed your trust and is now involved in sexual intimacies with a "stranger" . . . a competitor . . . a more beautiful or handsome playmate. Death itself would be easier to tolerate than being tossed aside like an old shoe. If one word must be selected to describe the entire experience, it would be something equivalent to panic. Just as a drowning person exhausts himself or herself in a desperate attempt to grasp anything that floats, a rejected partner typically tries to grab and hold the one who is leaving. This panic then leads to appeasement, which destroys what is left of the marriage. <P>Let's look for a moment at the other half of the relationship-focusing on the individual who wants out of the marriage. What secrets lie deep within the mind of the woman who has an affair with her boss, or the man who chases the office flirt? Surprising to some, the desire for sex is not the primary motivator in such situations. Something much more basic is operating below the surface. Long before any decision is made to "fool around" or walk out on a partner, a fundamental change has begun to occur in the relationship. Many books on this subject lay the blame on the failure to communicate, but I disagree. The inability to talk to one another is a symptom of a deeper problem, but it is not the cause itself.<P>The critical element is the way a husband or wife begins to devalue the other and their lives together. It is a subtle thing at first, often occurring without either partner being aware of the slippage. But as time passes, one individual begins to feel trapped in a relationship with someone he or she no longer respects.<P>Now we begin to see why groveling, crying and pleading by a panic-stricken partner tend to drive the claustrophobic partner even farther away. The more he or she struggles to gain a measure of freedom (or even secure a little breathing room), the more desperately the rejected spouse attempts to hang on. Perhaps it is now apparent where the present line of reasoning is leading us. If there is hope for dying marriages, and I certainly believe there is, then it is likely to be found in the reconstruction of respect between warring husbands and wives. That requires the vulnerable spouse to open the cage door and let the trapped partner out! All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive. There may be a time and place for strong feelings to be expressed, and there may be an occasion for quiet tolerance. But these responses must not be used as persuasive devices to hold the drifting partner against his or her will. <P>To the reader who is desperately in need of this advice, please pay close attention at this point: I'm sure you would not have dreamed of using these coercive methods to convince your husband or wife to marry you during your dating days. You had to lure, attract, charm and encourage him or her. This subtle game of courtship had to take place one delicate step at a time. Obviously, it would not have been successful if you had wept violently and hung on the neck of your lover saying, "I think I'll die if you don't marry me! My entire life amounts to nothing without you. Please! Oh, please, don't turn me down," etc. Coercing and manipulating a potential marriage partner is like high-pressure tactics by a used car salesman. What do you think he would accomplish by telling a potential customer through his tears, "Oh, please, buy this car! I need the money so badly and I've only had two sales so far this week. If you turn me down, I think I'll go straight out and kill myself!" <P>This is a ridiculous analogy, of course, but there is applicability to it. When one has fallen in love with an eligible partner, he attempts to "sell himself" to the other. But like the salesman, he must not deprive the buyer of free choice in the matter. Instead, he must convince the customer that the purchase is in his own interest. If a person would not buy an automobile to ease the pain of a salesman, how much more unlikely is he to devote his entire being to someone he doesn't love, simply for benevolent reasons? None of us is that unselfish. <P>Ideally, we are permitted by God to select only one person in the course of a lifetime, and few are willing to squander that one shot on someone we merely pity! In fact, it is very difficult to love another person romantically and pity him or her at the same time. If begging and pleading are ineffective methods of attracting a member of the opposite sex during the dating days, why do victims of bad marriages use the same groveling techniques to hold a drifting spouse? They only increase the depth of disrespect by the one who is escaping. Instead, they should convey their own version of the following message when the time is right: "John [or Diane], I've been through some very tough moments since you decided to leave, as you know. My love for you is so profound that I just couldn't face the possibility of life without you. To a person like me, who expected to marry only once and to remain committed for life, it is a severe shock to see our relationship begin to unravel. Nevertheless, I have done some intense soul-searching,and I now realize that I have been attempting to hold you against your will. That simply can't be done. As I reflect on our courtship and early years together, I'm reminded that you married me of your own free choice. I did not blackmail you or twist your arm or offer you a bribe. It was a decision you made without pressure from me. Now you say you want out of the marriage, and obviously, I have to let you go. I'm aware that I can no more force you to stay today than I could have made you marry me in 1989 [or whenever]. You are free to go. If you never call me again, then I will accept your decision. I admit that this entire experience has been painful, but I'm going to make it. The Lord has been with me thus far and He'll go with me in the future. You and I had some wonderful times together, John. You were my first real love and I'll never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and trust that God will guide you in the years ahead." <P>Slowly, unbelievably, the trapped spouse witnesses the cage door vibrate just a bit, and then start to rise. He can't believe it. This person to whom he has felt bound hand and foot for years has now set him free! It isn't necessary to fight off her advances-her grasping hands-any more. "But there must be a catch," he thinks. "It's too good to be true. Talk is cheap. This is just another trick to win me back. In a week or two she'll be crying on the phone again, begging me to come home. She's really weak, you know, and she'll crack under pressure." <P>It is my strongest recommendation that you, the rejected person, prove your partner wrong in this expectation. Let him marvel at your self-control in coming weeks. Only the passage of time will convince him that you are serious-that he is actually free. He may even test you during this period by expressions of great hostility or insult, or by flirtation with others. But one thing is certain: He will be watching for signs of weakness or strength. The vestiges of respect hang in the balance. If the more vulnerable spouse passes the initial test and convinces the partner that his freedom is secure, some interesting changes begin to occur in their relationship. Please understand that every situation is unique and I am merely describing typical reactions, but these developments are extremely common in families I have seen. Most of the exceptions represent variations on the same theme. Three distinct consequences can be anticipated when a previously "grabby" lover begins to let go of the cool spouse: The trapped partner no longer feels it necessary to fight off the other, and their relationship improves. It is not that the love affair is rekindled, necessarily, but the strain between the two partners is often eased. As the cool spouse begins to feel free again, the question he has been asking himself changes. After wondering for weeks or months, "How can I get out of this mess?" he now asks, "Do I really want to go?" Just knowing that he can have his way often makes him less anxious to achieve it. Sometimes it turns him around 180 degrees and brings him back home! The third change occurs not in the mind of the cool spouse but in the mind of the vulnerable one. Incredibly, he or she feels better somehow more in control of the situation. There is no greater agony than journeying through a vale of tears, waiting in vain for the phone to ring or for a miracle to occur. Instead, the person has begun to respect himself or herself and to receive small evidences of respect in return.<P>

Hi SoSad.59,<P>I can feel exactly what you are saying. It's been a year and half for me and I still have a hard time if I have to see my H (we are separated and I'm in Plan B).<P>Sometimes I'm sad or mad and show it. Sometimes I'm a bit more friendly. Neither one really feels good to me.<P>So lately, I've been "civilized and business-like." I've come to realize that being sad around him doesn't do anything nor does being friendly...then he thinks everything is just hunky-dory.<P>Being business-like works best for me because, #1) He doesn't need to know what I'm feeling or thinking at this point and #2) That's really the only reason I ever have to see him...for business.<P>Other than that, we aren't going to be friends. Nope...not okay. But neither are we going to be enemies. We are just going to be ex's (eventually) and while I don't feel all that comfortable deliberately acting like I don't care for someone I once loved dearly, I realized that for my best good, I have to. I eventually will get used to guarding myself around him.<P>So I don't know if that helped, but be assured you are alone in how you feel. I've just come to realized that the less I show of myself at all around him, the better.<P>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<BR>

{{{{{Lisa}}}}}<BR>I know exactly how you feel. I have successfully avoided being around my XW, except at my house, and one time when I had a flat tire...couldn't avoid that one! When I speak to her here, I have the 'upper hand' so to speak, but I rarely use it that way, only when she is being disrespectful, or manipulative, which she does do...less often now, but....<P>It is natural for you to assume that he would take your ambivalence as a green light...he's going to try to find justification anyway...acting clingy didn't work, did it? Acting angry didn't either. There aren't a whole lot of alternatives, but by detaching, and still being loving you plant a seed of doubt. Think about it. You begged, pleaded, yelled, maybe even threw some things. This is the reaction he expects, and one thing I never read but believe is that they get power out of that...look at me...woo-hoo...watch her squirm...I did that! Aren't I clever? It is amajor ego boost...no wonder they don't regret leaving...THEY haven't! they just put you in the corner, and thump you when you try to leave. Have you ever disciplined a dog? Shouted at them, or maybe used a newspaper to make a loud sound...or to strike them? Watch their reaction next time. When I tell my dog to stay, she tries to move toward me in a way I won't notice, and she keeps looking up, and I feel that way, too sometimes. Now, I still 'love' that dog, but she makes me angry...she won't listen. When she responds like that, I feel bad, and I want to leave, much like my XW, and your H. That pattern is fairly well established. I do A, she (the dog!) does B. I derive some measure of satisfaction in knowing that I am in control (right) of the relationship.<P>When you detach, and act lovingly, there really isn't too much for them to do. This process is long, and there are waaayy too many opportunities to make things worse. I have taken to experimenting with it. One time, I thanked her for taking care of me for 18 years, she was speechless, down to syllables...honestly, it was great. A week later, she violated the custody agreement, and I prorated the support (may have been wrong, don't know.), she said, last week you were fine, and now this? I said that nothing had changed, I was merely paying her what she was owed ($26 vice $91 for the week...she had them only 2 days over the previous 14 day period, so I prorated.) At first, she blew up. The next day, she called and apologized, and asked for the money. I gave her the $26. The next time she came, she asked if there was anything I wanted to talk about, I said no. Saturday, I said, hello...I'm busy, and walked away. She spend about 20 akward minutes here, and left. Next time, I am going to observe her carefully, I suspect she will squirm under the veneer, and I am anxious to see where she is. OM's sister called Saturday afternoon. I think she is putting out some feelers. Eventually, she may come here, and see, but I doubt it very seriously.<P>Anyway, my point is that you do not have anything to lose by trying. Remember that there are others there, too. Your response is being looked at by them, and they are a huge factor in this. He will take it that way ANYWAY, and he will take more from the lovingly detached than from anything else...I do know that from my experience. The other causes what the Dobson quote says ^ there...no respect! The anger just proves their point in the first place, and the other....well, guilt seems to rule that!<P>Take care Lisa...you be strong now....stay focused on your goals, and walk with the Lord on this one. God bless you.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 09, 2001).]

Well, I got through it!<P>I made it through and I actually feel pretty good about how I behaved. I was pleasant and business like. I tried to not think about what my STBXH was thinking of me (which I have done continually during our seperation). And instead just acted like my normal self. I know that sounds like "Duh???" but I swear I don't feel like I have acted normal around him in months. After the meeting we talked awhile in the driveway. At times I got a little teary, but I think I held my own for the most part. I let him know when I felt he was manipulating me, but otherwise treated him with kindness. We even talked about some nice memories.<P>One thing was a MAJOR CHANGE for me. In the past my actions have been governed by trying to get him to see the error of his ways. Tonight I BROKE THIS BAD HABIT!!! The little devil on my shoulder does hope that a little niggling doubt about his actions creeps in. But now I'm not expecting anything to change his mind about wanting the divorce. I'm just acting true to myself.<P><B>peoplepleaser and LetSTry </B><BR>Thanks so much for giving me the encouragement to step back and disengage. I steped back and did PlanA when H first left. I offered him my friendship and love without making demands. In my case, the freedom lead him to pursuing other women rather than drawing closer to the children and me. But at least I know that I tried. And I think that he will respect me for this in the end. But I'm through trying to change his mind. Like BrambleRose thread said: I did not cause his midlife crisis, I can't control his desire to see other women, or control his desire for a divorce, and I can't cure his depression or feelings of emptyness. I can only control how I react to the things that are happening around me.<P><B> Mrs O </B><BR>I think your business like approach is a good strategy and it really helped to think of this meeting in that way. And since I have a tendency to talk to much when I am nervous, not showing him every little thing I feel is great advice.<P><B> Waiting_for_her </B><BR>Man, you always make me think of things in a new way. I never really thought about the fact that my H will take most anything I do as affirmation of his actions- regardless of what it is. So I might as well act in a way that causes me the least discomfort- which is usually being pleasant and friendly. <P>I feel like I may have turned a corner today. I could say the D word without crying and feeling like the kids lives are being irreparably harmed. We even talked about some old times and nice memories - and I didn't cry. We even laughed alittle. I feel more normal than I have in months. And its because of you guys - Thankyou from the bottom of my heart.<P>Lots of hugs!<BR>Lisa <P>