I feel that some of the reason I cannot put 100% of my love and attention on my marriage of 7 years is that my ex IS in the picture (always has been) but now more than ever. After being divorced from him 9 years (we have 2 children together) he has really started coming around "more" than his every-other-weekend and coaching the boys balls teams. Now, even on my time, he calls during the week or weekend and wants to run over and get the boys - - even if its just to go grab a bite to eat, go hit balls at the ballfield, etc. He is probably going thru a change and growing up. I divorced him, but he had "left" the marriage (emotionally) and had an affair. I dealt with him (thru anger and resentment) for many years and after I remarried, I got over it and accepted the problems and him as my friend. Now, I see him all the time as he wants to share so much of HIS life with our boys. Its hard to watch him and his love and feelings for our kids and know that he wants the same things I want for them. My 2nd marriage has had to take a lot of work and some "hard" work - my husband had no children and is not the "best" stepdad - its taken him a lot of time to come accustomed to kids, etc. I never stopped loving my ex. Our divorce was something I did for my well-being - the misery and hurt had to end. He has remarried and divorced, dated and had many girlfriends. Over the past few months, though, he has changed. He has totally committed his time and life to spending it with the boys- and everyone (his family, mine, etc) has seen the change. Probably growing up. Finally. When me and my husband are having hard times (9 times out of 10) I continually think of my ex, how good it was, how much we are alike, how much I always loved him and long for having that relationship back. I know it shouldn't be in my mind or thoughts - but how do you get rid of a love like that? I try so hard to focus on me and my husband - and everytime things start getting better, up comes the ex and staggers my heart. I don't want another divorce and I do not want my family to go thru any more changes in their lives. I have told my husband that it takes two to make a marriage work and he has to help me. People, what do you do when your heart is with the father of your children and you are married? as I am? How do you "forget" when you see this man every single day of your life at your childrens sports and social events? It has all become so emotional for me trying to handle both mens emotions as well as my childrens.

Cndy,<P>It seems like we discussed this once before. In fact, I think the only way you'll be able to get over this is to completely cut your ex out of YOUR life. That doesn't mean your kids lives, but you should take all the precautions that are laid out in SAA: you shouldn't see or speak with him. If it were me, I would recommend that you move away (far)---that's not nice for the kids or your ex, but it would be best for your marriage.<P>Hah!!! Easier said than done.<P>You should be sharing all these feelings with your husband right now (Rule of Complete Honesty). Your marriage could probably benefit from counseling. My guess is that if your marriage was better (say, "great"), you wouldn't have a problem handling your ex. And remember---the grass really isn't greener over there. You left that pasture; don't go back.

cndy,<BR> Have these feelings always existed since the beginning of your second marriage? Or have they evolved from the recent problems your having in your second marriage and your husbands recent growth spurt?

K - I can't and would never do what you recommended - I think that what it would do to my 15 and 12 year old boys and their relationship with their dad would be worse than me having a broken heart and dealing with it. Not only that, but it would bring up other issues I don't want to face (i.e. the boys may decide to stay here and live with him) and that will NOT be an option. Our divorce decree also states that if one of us moves outside a 30 mile radius from the other, the party that moves gives up rights to the kids living with him. He made sure of that when we divorced - he always said he WOULD be with his kids no matter what I chose to do. My marriage should, could, and would benefit from counseling. Unfortunately after numerous attempts, requests, and attempts at trying to get my husband to go with me - he won't. He doesn't think HE needs it. If I do, I can go. I did go for quite some time and after enough time,my counselor said I have choices to make. Live with him and accept the way he is and tough luck for me - because he IS NOT going to go to counseling - or leave him. I'm still there with him. <BR>JDC - I have always loved my first husband. Our divorce came after a solid year of him starting to drink (heavily) which lead to him having an affair. I walked. I couldn't handle it. But I never for a minute stopped loving him. After about 2 years I decided to get married (for the wrong reasons) to give my kids stability of a home again, and a better financial way of living and a pretty decent man to have in our home to help us all. No, I never stopped loving him and I know that after 9 years I never WILL stop loving him. When I go to my kids games, he is there. When I go to their school activities, he is there. When I turn around, he is there, because his time with the children is SO important to him now.

Cndy,<P>It's pretty clear that what you're currently doing isn't working. <P>I'd suggest that you find a different counselor, who may give you a different perspective. I like Steve Harley from MarriageBuilders---if you believe in the concepts here, its a great place to do counseling.<P>I don't believe that you've been honest with your current husband about your feelings. Have you told him how much you love your ex? Have you told him how you feel about him? How you feel about yourself? <P>Your husband won't go to counseling with you---HE doens't think he needs it becuase I bet he has no idea how badly you feel (this is very common).<P>You need to start being honest. First with your husband. If he can't help you and can't deal with it, then you don't have much of a marriage. And staying in a loveless marriage for the sake of the kids usually does more harm than good for the children---you're establishing a poor model for their married lives. I'm not saying that this would be easy for your husband to deal with by any means---but you should give him this information, and the two of you should try to work through your various options.<P>You should be dealing with your ex by applying the Policy of Joint Agreement. You could move if necessary---I've yet to encounter a lawyer who couldn't get a divorce decree changed to the benefit of the mother. You could CHOOSE to limit your contact with your ex---telling him that you want NO CONTACT with him, and that any visits need to be arranged through your husband (for example). There are lots of different possibilities---they all involve effort and hard decisions, and my guess is that you don't want to make those decisions becuase you're unhappy already in your marriage. So you don't make those decisions. And your marriage continues in it's status quo. And you don't feel like making those decisions...<P>You've got to break this cycle. You need to start being honest with your husband.<P>And your "love" for your ex is an idealized one too---the best way to get rid of that fantasy would be for you to leave your current husband and move back with your ex. Then, on a 24/7 schedule, you'd be reminded of all the qualities that your ex possessed that you weren't so fond of. Of course, this path would lead you to further unhappiness.<P>The bottom line is that I would suggest TOTAL HONESTY with your husband. If he's willing, then counseling here at MB. And part of that plan would be eliminating your ex from your daily life---probably for at least a year while you recover and rebuild your marriage.

K - <BR>I know you are 100% right about the fact that if I had no contact with him - those feelings would eventually die - its inevitable. I do value my marriage and want it to work - but I must be honest with you and say that I will not sacrafice my childrens happiness (being with their father and vice versa) for the marriage. I will sacrafice anything for my kids at this point; as they have suffered enough thru divorce and as wrong as it may be - thats the way I feel now. IF my husband was a supportive stepparent and did things with my boys (spent time, loved, and shared with them) - I would do that. But he is not. He does nothing with the boys - he spends his spare time on the house, yard, or anything, but does not go to my kids games, school activities, or anything. He says he's just not into it and has more important things to do at home. I used to BEG him to go with me (especially if my ex was there) because it showed that we were trying as a family unit. He won't do it. He says he doesn't have time for ball games, school activities. (He did, though the first year we were married) I have told him how much it meant to me for him to be their for my support as well as them feeling like he is a part of our lives now. He won't. I have told 3 counselors these same stories - and K - I am sorry to say I have gotten the same advice from all 3. No one seems to think he gives a flip about the marriage. No one but me who is trying to save something here. But, for those reasons, they really have no stepdad either and I am not willing to sacrafice their father for my marriage which isn't tops. Not only that, but I could promise you my husband would NOT move. Not for our marriage or anything. He is very material and this home we have is his life. But how can I be honest and tell him how I feel about my ex when I can't even get thru to him about "our" marriage and its importance. <BR>The issue of going back to the ex? Well, let me say this - I don't even try to remember the years with him because 8 of the 9 years were the most wonderful ones of my life. Those are good memories. Year 9 was a total blowout. He started drinking liquor, liquor was getting him drunk, he started running off at nite and the one night stand. That was the end of it. I couldn't take it anymore. I walked and that was it. Of course, I reacted too quickly (knowing that now) Nevertheless, the divorce was final and he went thru about 2 years of changes and now is back to who he was (and has been this way for quite some time now). I can't remember the bad times as the one year of bad didn't compare to the 8 years of good. You see? Its confusing I know. I guess all I do want is the feelings to go away - or should they? Counselors are not advising me on WHAT to do - and my feelings are they all think I should dump this marriage - and I can't bring myself to do it. I just don't think its the answer. I have come here for answers that I probably will NOT find - but I don't know where to turn anymore.

Cndy,<P>I care very much for your feelings and this situation. I don't want you to sacrifice your children's happiness for your marriage---what you need (and want) is to be in a happy, loving, supportive marriage where your kids are happy.<P>I'm going to suggest that you call Steve Harley and set up a few sessions of phone counseling. Steve WILL HELP you---he's a big supporter of marriages. He's not going to tell you to get out of your marriage, not without first trying everything at your disposal. I've seen a couple other counselors in addition to Steve, and Steve is 10X better than any of the others. He will focus on helping you build a REAL PLAN to put your marriage back on track. He'll help you evaluate your success. And he'll help your husband if he's willing to go along.<P>If you have truly exhausted all the "right" ways of dealing with your husband (and this would be more for a professional to judge), then I would suggest that you separate from your husband. Make it very clear to him that you don't want a divorce, but that the status quo is killing you, and that when he's ready to participate again, you'll be willing to work on the marriage. It's pretty clear that you need your husband to be more involved in the children's lives (both step- and his kids). You need him to be more focused on the family, and less focused on the "material" issues in his life.<P>Cndy, I think you know my story (wife had an affair resulting in a baby). Well, I had "become" your husband---at least in being less participatory in my home life, and being too focused on material issues and projects. Steve, through the use of the MarriageBuilder's program, was able to reform me. I take off time to be at kids doctor's appointments, school stuff, weekend outings, etc. My wife always "told me" that this stuff was important to her---but I hadn't learned to LISTEN. I think some counseling through MB would really benefit you---this perspective could help you get your marriage in the direction it needs to go.<P>I know you're saying "But it's my HUSBAND that needs the counseling".<P>That's true. My wife needed plenty of counseling too. But she was unwilling to go. Well, you work with what you've got. I've been able to positively influence her through my efforts---she's learned the "program" through me, and our marriage has come around as a result. It took longer than if she were a willing participant, but YOU can have an effect. The only person's behavior you can absolutely change is your own. You can influence your husbands---but he's got to do it for himself. I think that you will be able to conquer this seemingly "insurmountable" problem with the right coaching and counseling, and that's why I'll tell you one last time to give Steve a call.<P>Please do. I think it will help. 800-639-1639

Thank you K - I am going to call Steve - who knows? He could have all the answers I need. Like you said, I have changed so much of my behavior and its so demeaning to have him still change none - no matter what I do! Steve is worth a shot the same as the ones I have gone too - and basically, thats what I have heard "you have exhausted everything you can do ..." and to walk away and I just don't feel ready to do that. #1 I want my marriage to work. I asked my husband if he does and he said "I guess". #2 - I love my husband and want to keep my family stable. I asked him if he wants to build the marriage and he said "I guess". I know its just answers to please me coming out of his mouth. Maybe Steve can hit him over the head (if he EVER agrees to talk to anyone - right now he feels he knows all the answers and there are NO problems)Thanks for your advice and one more thing - can you call Steve anytime at that number? Does he set times or anything?

ok, so you married you current h for the wrong reason. based on all you've said in your other topic, i woulld say you are giving your marriage 100%. i think you're getting your teeth kicked in for it. whenever you're trying your best and it's not working at all, it's easy to think of the good times of old. your xh must seem like a knight in shinning armor. i sense you are in desperate need of some relief. i suspect you are thinking of and very well may start seeing your xh. i can't blame you. i can hardly see how you can tolerate you h as he is. i can see how you could benefit from seeing him a few times. i seriously doubt it would work out. but who knows. i can see at least two reasons why it might. we can certainly say that you've tried the grass on the other side and found it no greener and this may make you relationship with you x workable. i want you to have a good man. you deserve it. i'm afraid your x isn't the right man for you in the long run. perhaps with some counselling it could be fixed and rebuilt. your old marriage is more likly to work than your current marriage. it's tough finding the right person especially when you have children and other restrictions. good luck.

You know Frankie, my ex does seem like a knight in shining armour as far as the way he has genuinely loved and cared for our kids - the way he has worked thru his problems and become such a good dad for them (being there so much to be divorced) and doing everything he can to spend every minute with them. That means so very much to me. Gosh, I just wish my husband would spend 15 minutes with my kids - show them 15 minutes that he cares - sit down and eat dinner with them - or go to a ball game for them - SOMETHING! Yeah, in comparison, he is a knight in shining armour as far as daddys are concerned. As far as seeing him though, I do. I see him almost every day of my life. In the past I didn't care and it didn't bother me because of "who he had turned into" and for the past couple years, it does bother me - because he is the man he was for so many years. Its not just me who noticed the change in him - its his mom, my mom, his sisters and brothers - his work peers. As far as dating him, absolutely not - no matter what, because I am still married. I don't even "want" to stumble into that hornets nest!! LOL!! I do think IF my ex and I had the chance and opportunity to work out a marriage - it would work - we are better friends than we were when WE were married - - but my task right now is to see if the marriage I have can be restored and made into something. I have to do that for myself first. Its hard - very hard when I am working very one-sided and with a person who has a cold as heck attitude - but I am giving it my best shot until I feel totally drained. I'm close - but not drained completely yet. I'm gonna give the Steve Harley a call and see what he says. I guess thats about all I have left. My 12 year old had a ball game last night that meant the world to him. I BEGGED my husband to go. I told him it would mean so much to us for him to come and watch him play (he was pitching) and he said he didn't have time. He had to paint the porch. I wanted to rip every single bone out of his body and swore that I was going to give up on him. But today is here and I'm still there. And after the game (which my EX is the coach) - I avoided going out to eat with the team (since my ex was going) and I was too pissed off - and went home and he was Mr. happy expecting me to be Mrs. Happy. I told him how much it hurt me and my son that he wouldn't go. He said " I just have so much to do". Everything comes before my kids with him and it grinds everything inside of me. The wall is building and building.

Cndy:<P>Steve (MB office) can be reached at the usual daytime hours. It's 888-639-1639, BTW, not 800. <P>The link here has his scheduled hours:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi7020_sched.html</A> <P>Cndy, I'm glad you're going to call Steve. He's very helpful, and you'll get some good, solid advice.

I was reading through here and was very disturbed by K's suggestion to move away. I am very encouraged that you are ignoring that advice. Your children have been through enough without having their dad severed from their lives. I have not heard of one single case where a counselor has recommended it would be to the benefit of the children to sever contact with a reasonable parent. They love him, he loves them, and he will always be their dad. (Or so it sounds.) I am glad for your children that you are considering what's best for them. They are not old enough to look after themselves, so they need a caring parent like you.<P>Given your boys age and how close they seem to their dad, I even would guess that if you moved away they would come to resent you for that.<P>With regard to dealing with your ex., would it help to have a frank discussion and ask him to keep all communication to the subject of the children and their welfare? If he was willing to do that, you could perhaps achieve some emotional distance.<P>If you still care about your ex husband, then you are a wonderful and generous person. Nothing wrong with that. If you "love" him and wish you were his wife, oops. But you can't change the past. Where you end up always depends on where you start, and right now you are starting with your current husband. Good luck.<BR>

Nonplused - <BR>Thanks for responding - I miss the "family" that we had, the mom, dad and kids. I miss the eating dinners together (my husband eats in the living room by the TV), I miss the four of us going to our kids ball games and enjoying them with them (my husband won't go), I miss summer vacations where we 'laughed' together (my husband and I have not taken a vacation - he uses all his time off for working aorund the house and says me and the kids can go off if we need). I miss having all that. Yes, I miss the good years we had compared to what I have now. I do love him deeply - probably a lot due to the fact that he loves my kids dearly and that makes someones heart grow too. I love that he hugs them and kisses them and praises them for their good grades and everything that my husband will NOT do. And I guess in all honesty, I love my current husband too - but in a different way, only for me - not for my kids ... he doesn't give a hoot about my kids. He doesn't say good morning, or good nite to them - he acknowledges their existance and thats about it. They are such good kids too, honor roll students, athletic, popular - and well mannered. He just doesn't "see" them. Thats the driving force on keeping us together or apart.. the kids. I mean, you would think he would TRY - he doesn't even care if I am around my ex (not that I want him to be jealous) at my kids ball games and if we go to eat after and my ex is there - he sits with us (me and the kids) and my husband just doesn't care - heck, he doesn't even come knowing my ex is their coach and will be there. <p>[This message has been edited by Cndy (edited May 04, 1999).]

Cndy,<P>I previously posted under "Sleepless". I find your story facinating. If I were in your shoes I would find the right opportunity to articulate your feelings in a non-threatening way to your husband and be very honest about your feelings of the current situation. He should know how deeply your feelings are. If he still refuses to participate as a father or husband consider separating. It may take a two-by-four from the porch to wake him up. (I suspect he is up to something. His behavior doesn't add up.)<P>2. Explore your true feelings for your Ex. Are you in love with the kind of dad he is? The kind of man he is or how he makes you feel? In other words, are you in love with him as a man or as a archtype? Personally, if you have these deep-rooted feelings that extend beyond his role as a father, I would lay it on the line with him as well. You need closure on this in the worst way. Personally, I think you owe it to your personal happiness and fulfillment to figure out how this relationship fits into your life. Your children HAVE the continuity of a father, its him.<P>3. Give your kids credit. They are probably tougher than you think and would WANT you to be happy in every way. If the time comes, bring them into the decision process and talk it through with them. They may surprise you.<P>Finally, I know I'll probably get slammed all over this forum, but Harley talks about limits too. At some point, some marriages are not recoverable. You sound like you are "falling on your sword" to protect harmony for everyone else except yourself. Building this pressure inside of you will eventually burst out, and as we see all over this forum, usually not in a very productive or healthy way. I'd follow your heart, (be your own counsel) and good luck to you.

cndy, i'm ready to call it quites with your current h and i'm not even married to him. i suggest you focus on determining if your xhs' behaviour is genuine. evaluate his personnal life to determine if all you see there supports the character you now know to be important. give it some time. be careful and don't fool yourself. after dealing with him for a few more months in mutual settings consider having refreshments with him and the children and maybe others to see how he behaves. gradually extend your non romantic encounters. keep in mind, carefully evaluate him to see if he is the kind of man you want as a lover, husband, and father. how does he treat your child from your current marriage. see how he acts when the new child misbehaves. see where i'm going? remember, time is on your side. you can continue to live with your h. he doesn't seem to care what you do. i think this is a practical approach to your situation though some on this board will surely point out how immorale it is.

TALK ABOUT AN UPDATE FOR EVERYONE - - Last nite brought into the picture some interesting factors. My husband went to my sons ball game (but made an as* out of himself trying to show off in front of my ex who is the coach) and we went to eat after (and the ex shows up with friends) and he tried to be Mr. Cool again (slugging down a few beers and making loud comments to me and the kids he shouldn't have) . Anyway, got thru all that and went home and decided to look on internet since he was on for quite some time Sunday nite and wanted to check history of SITES visited. I just learned how to do this from this Marriage Builders site! Thanks guys. Okay, so he was on the WWW Sites (wrestling) and it indicated "naked" Sable, "naked Diane" all these naked wrestling people. The next site was Playboy - quite a few places in there. I questioned him as to WHO was on these sites. He said he was in WWW - but NOT looking at naked women. Hmmm. Wonder who was. So I doublclicked on one of the sites visited and up pops this pretty nude lady in WWW - so I said "look - did you go here". No. I didn't he said. Just in WWW but not there (okay, so I just FELL off the turnip truck) and he denied the Playboy site too. Then says (maybe) it was my oldest son. (thru research found out he was not signed on internet that day)- but for the sake of argument, I asked my son and he said NO WAY was I there - and he would tell me. So what do you think now? He was Mr. Cheery this morning. Guess that means I should forget it?

Cndy:<P>Well, it seems that your husband is making an effort on your behalf. And it's pretty clear that he's threatened by your ex---look at his behavior. And he's visiting sex sites too---this could be the sign of an addiction, or it could be a manifestation of unmet needs.<P>I don't think you should forget it. But I do think you have to discuss this in a non-threatening way, as Managing suggests. And you may want to hold off having that discussion until you've talked to Steve.<P>I also think that you're close to "exhausting" your options on your current marriage. I don't disagree with most of Managing's advice, but I would be very careful to take it in clearly-marked steps.<P>1. Try to recover the marriage---that may mean dealing with a separation.<P>2. If the marriage fails, after you regain your balance, it's time to discuss those feelings for your ex with him (be very, very careful---you're in a perfect "rebound" situation).<P>One thing I strongly advise you not to do is to "follow your heart (emotions)". Emotions are very volatile and fleeting---plenty of people who "followed their heart" end up in affairs. You seem to be doing a good job making rational decisions to save your marriage---you're just running out of energy to do it. Again, I suggest counseling with Steve---he'll gauge this and help you with a plan that takes your level of frustration and exhaustion into account.<P>Frankie's advice isn't just immoral, it's downright poor. Trying to play two relationships at once will do nothing but muddle the issue. Deal with your current marriage first. If it ends, then you have a "chance" with your ex. But I wouldn't confine yourself to him either---you're a strong woman, and you don't immediately need a man to walk into your life.

K - Got it! I just "gotta" have that talk with Steve now. The pieces of the puzzle are so many and they keep adding. The one thing thats bugging the daylights out of me regarding the sex sites he's looking at (and denying) is that I can't get him to have sex with me more than once every few months. He says he doesn't like sex. And I mean I have tried everything with him only to be rejected and rejected. Its totally wierd to me. All this is. I tried to "talk" to him this weekend and all he will do is listen (till I heard him snoring) and no responses. <BR>Regarding the ex (whooh, what a story) - I don't think he is so much threatened by him as the fact that his likes to show his "position" just like he does with me and the kids. For the kids, he wants to let them know he's the "big, bad boss". He wants to let my ex know "hes the husband". Now alone, he is fine with my ex, he talks to him and they get along fine - but in front of others his big "front" shows up. I am doing all I can and it is exhausting - but I know if the chance that he will TRY and work this thing out - it CAN work. The fact that he won't BUDGE to go with me to counseling or TALK to me at all about any of this is infuriating. The other thing that gets to me is people. So many of my friends ask "why isn't he coming to games" - what in the world theythink of him and my constant explanations are getting overbearing. <BR>But don't worry about one thing - I will not for any reason - get involved with another man while I am married and I can promise anyone that. I do know how to control those emotions and the COST of what they do to [people.

Cndy,<P>What I meant by "follow your heart" is to trust your instincts. Personally, I would not push the Internet thing too far. But I do believe that he is intentionally witholding personal feelings that revolve around sex from you and therefore "stonewalling". I believe that the phone call to Harley is very good advice. I would also strongly recommend picking up a Newsweek from a couple of weeks ago. Their is an excellent article about marriage research in there that is currently underway (near where I live) in Seattle. Basically, the research lab uses stable, happy couples married for a very long time as the "experts". I warn you, it isn't very complimentary of counseling at all. Remember also, basically a dog license qualifies most as counselors. The article even has a stort "test" to predict the likely hood of survivability of the union. Good luck.

I did drop the internet thing last nite after I asked and he denied it. What the heck is the value of fighting about it? I understand what you mean by following my heart - its been a pretty good predictor of what should/shouldn't happen. I've been to 4 counselors and agree 100% with you. Counseling is a matter of that persons particular beliefs and feelings. Evidently Harley is such a Pro-Marriage counselor - he will continually try to keep people trying - which is good. When I get to the details of my life with other counselors - they end up telling me its MY CHOICE - but looks like bailing is the only option. Thats frustrating, but I'm sure in their eyes - my story is frustrating. The internet thing doesn't push me into panic mode (Truly, I figure men are men - no slamming intended - and at one time or another look at that stuff anyway) The fact that he lies about it bothers me - but it probably embarassed him to know that I knew. He has no idea you can track that stuff (neither did I before this site!@!) Bottom line is that he's a coldhearted person, chip on the shoulder probably from something that happened long before me and I can't resolve HIS problem. I just keep on trying.