I was just wondering if any of you might be able to answer this question. Do father's really have a chance to win custody of children? My W and I are both terrific parents. We both make a very good income, although I earn quite a bit more than her. Due to our work schedules, I spend more time with our D than my W does. All things being equal, would I have a chance? It might change my perspective on things if I thought I could get custody.<P>sad dad

Wonder no more...<B>affirmative</B>. The courts have listened. Some of the 50s crap still exists, but the good news is custody is not <B>even</B> automatically awarded to the mother any more. In fact, the courts have consistently overlooked some of the more traditional reasons why men fail to get custody. PAs aren't even much consideration. The weighted issues are the needs of the children, the life they have had so far, and most important of all is the desires of all parties involved. I think men fail because they don't try. I have 50/50 custody. I don't agree with the fact that I still pay support...and am unemployed...XW got a second job where she works...Hell, she should be paying me! Oh well, you will find that there are things better left 'sliding'.<BR> When XW dropped the bomb, I initially was not going to sign because she would not do the required 6 month separation...she could not wait to get away. She threatened to sue on the grounds of mental cruelty. I took a quicj poll of kids, (17, 15, 13, 6 [left him out...he's daddy's boy anyway!]) and 15 year old said the mental cruelty went the <I>other</I> way. Anyway, I asked then if 50/50 would work for them, as I did not want to be a weekend dad. They were <I>very</I> relieved, and it is the <I>only</I> thing that has sustained me in this ordeal.<P>Friend, this sit stinks right up to Heaven above, and I am sorry for your pain, but you are about to learn that you have done some things right in your life...<B>accept that fact</B>, and run with it...(not literally, mom is still mom...she ain't your wife, but she is the mom).<P>You can get what you are owed, and you will...do yourself a favor, however. Don't talk bead about her to the kids...if there is an EA/PA going on, distance yourself from it, do not judge, do not talk to <B>anyone</B> about it, except do this: Find a <B>male</B> friend to vent your resentment/anger to...make sure he is a person you can trust, preferrably one that doe not have a connection to her. This is very important!<P>Take care, be strong, realize that this is not your fault totally, and move ahead...cry when you have to, but keep moving <I>forward</I>. God bless you, and keep you. I am praying for you. -Mike<P>P.S. There is another guy here...his handle is Ace...he is in your boat, too, and is in Chicago, as well. You might want to get with him on this. I live 150 west of you, on the Mississippi...near Moline. Illinois is <B>particularly</B> cognizant of the <I>new order</I>. I would be willing to meet with you some time...have a beer, or two, and whatever else you had in mind. Lem'me know...you are an Engineer...I am a technician...what type of engineering do you do? I am currently programming Windows, looking for contract work. I would appreciate any help you could offer. <B>Thanks</B><p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 12, 2001).]

Sad Dad,<P> Yes you do. I am here in Indiana. This state is a no fault state and the mother is always right. I have our kids and I go to court on the 19th to get it in writing. The judge is going to look at what is best for the children. My kids are very happy were they are. They are totally loved and feel safe. Your post didn't say if you were going for full or joint custody. Which one are you referring to? If it is joint then yes you have a very good change, but if it is full then you have to prove the mother unfit. <P>Indy

sad dad:<P>There's always a chance, but as Indy says, you will typically have to prove the mother unfit. In your case, it's unlikely to happen. If your wife wants the children (and is fit, and she hasn't "abandon" them to you)---she's likely to get them. And you're very likely to destroy any chance at reconcilliation by going to prove she's unfit.<P>It's not fair, but that's the way it usually works out.

I beg to differ. Illinois has made a great effort to make it clear that full custody by <B>either</B> parent is not automatic. Like I said, the 'fitness' is not an issue, until there is abuse, or neglect. Period. In a no-fault state (Illinois is such a state), custody issues are NOT ALLOWED...hence the term no-fault. If you cannot agree on <B>everything</B>, no-fault is not possible as it comes out of the box, so to speak. Any issue unresolved turns it into a 'contested divorce'. In fact, you can contest the contention by the petitioner that the differences are 'irreparable', and get the court to insist they attend a minumum counseling period prior to being awarded the D.<P>The state of Illinois' position is that automatice full custody by either parent is an unacceptable consequence of the process. WE MEN are shooting OURSELVES in the foot by lying down on this.<P>I got 50/50 by NOT fighting her, and making the kids' feelings known to her. For that concession, I agreed to no separation period, and signed the no-fault paperwork. She agreed to move immediately. The whole process took 15 minutes of her time...I was at work when I got divorced.<BR>

waiting_for_her:<P>I think our signals are crossed---you're correct in that there's no presumption of custody in Il. But statistically, you will find that the majority of custody goes to the mother having "joint" custody with her being the primary residence. You negotiated to 50/50, which I think is terrific. I was assuming that sad dad was going for sole custody. To get that, Mom's either got to be willing to give it up, or be a child-beating crack addict (and the judge still has to be in a pissy mood).

No, I just failed to mention a couple of 'other' things...like the preference of the state to keep them in their home, which I am in. Plus, the fact that we worked it out ourselves, support included...which is extrememy rare in Illinois...since I pay it directly to her, and not the state. Illinois was either the first, or among the first to insist on 'handling' it themselves...We were certainly the first to mess it up beyond all repair with red tape, and mishandling.<P>Full custody is another issue altogether, BUT...the overriding concern from the state's point of view (as they have repeatedly indicated in words, and actions) is to keep them in their home if that is available. I don't like the concept of full custody in most cases, nor do I agree with (most) men's taking the part time dad approach. As I said, we are doing this to ourselves collectively...have you ever heard the term 'deadbeat mom'? I'm sure that there are plenty, but you won't hear about it in the media, because it isn't 'newsworthy'. In the last 10 years, I can recall 6 cases of boyfriends beating infants to death who were in the 'sole custody' of their mothers...Susan Smith is as pitied as she is reviled...that makes no sense...she killed her children to stay with the OM...poor thing. Put that shoe on a man's foot, and he'd be dead now, too...from the State, another man, or his cellmates...so the attitude crosses all boundaries...those pissed off judges are hard to find, aren't they?<P>In other, less lengthy words, I do agree with you about full custody, but I don't think it is in anyone's best iinterests in an otherwise appropriate parenting situation. Your words are wise, I just don't like the implication that my XW is a better parent, or offers my children (in the OM) any sort of appropriate father figure. Her personal beliefs with respect to me stop at the R, she has been very carful to indicate to me that she thinks I'm an excellent father, and a good provider, but....-Mike

Dear Sad Dad<BR> Just to let you know.. This may sound crazy but, My exH got custody of his son from a previous relationship.. Before me. And the mother of his son pays well supposed to pay support to him.. So yes there is hope... And I give you two thumbs up for wanting to care for your daughter...<BR>It brought a smile to my face.. Thank you..<P>JJ

I want to thank all of you for responding. <P>I want to clarify a few things. My W is/was involved in a EA/PA. She has told me she want's a divorce, but has taken no action yet. She is still in a "fog" and possibly withdrawal from her actions lately. I have a friend I met on another website that went through a similar situation with his W last year (except no kids). He has been counseling me and I am doing quite well. I know how and why the A happened, and I understand recovery is a LONG process, which I am mentally and emotionally prepared for.<P>We have discussed 50/50 custody, but my W assumes it would be with our D living with her. I want her to live with me. I love my W dearly and can forgive her. If we don't get the chance to reconcile, I'll be able to go on without her, but I don't know if I could handle not seeing my D everyday.<P>I have made it clear to my wife that I don't want a divorce and want to work on our marriage, but she doesn't right now. It is very early in the process, but if we do get divorced, I don't want to lose everything. I have failed my W in some areas as a husband and have been working hard to make the necesary changes in my self, but the choice to have an affair was hers alone. Why should my D and I suffer from the choice she made?<P>To "waiting_for_her", I may take you up on those beers if things progress to the point of divorce/custody battle.<P>Thanks again everyone!<P>sad dad <p>[This message has been edited by sad dad (edited July 12, 2001).]

Sad Dad,<P>As K said it is probably better if you go for joint custody. My lawyer told me the courts here in OH really don't want anything but joint custody.<P>My x and I have joint custody, and I am the residential parent so the kids live with me. X sees the kids every other weekend and 1-2 times per week as her schedule allows(or as she wants to). She also pasy me child support. There is no alimony.<P>I didn't see much difference between full custody and shared parenting other than with full custody you are responsible for the child 24/7. With shared she is responsible when she is with them. I haven;t had any major decisions that have needed her agreement on so I basically do what is in the best interest of the kids. I haven;t gotten any grief(yet) on my decisions.<P>Go for the home and you will get the kids IMO.

There are several people in the Chicago area...did you check out Butterfly's 'I've got pictures' thread? Those people all got together...I think it would be great! Things will get hairier, whether you reconcile, or not. That's too bad, but....<P>The house does seem to be a key in the process, I've harped on that enough already.<P>RWD, the custodial parent in full custody gets all the child support when there is sufficient income. My custody is 50/50, which in my mind means no money passes hands at all (My XW works...I am unemployed.), however...the child support's version of 50/50 means that I pay her $91/week...and I provide the <B>other</B> $91/week here...I don't see the equity in that, but I do know that my kids would suffer if I didn't find a way to pay it...every week.<P>There is little, if anything 'fair' or 'equitable' about this, and all you can really hope for is to minimize the loss and damage, then move on and fix things, IMHO.<P>SD......my e-mail is mtblake@netexpress.net <P>Take care. -Mike

Sad Dad,<P>My children are older, so I am not up on all the custody stuff. But one question? If the custody is 50/50, How is one residence the primary residence? I thought it meant you hopefully live near each other and the children basically have 2 residence that are shared equally. And I thought that 50/50 custody meant that the children stayed with 1 parent 1/2 the time - like Monday-Thursday at Mom's and Friday-Sunday at Dad's. Is that not the case? It seems to me that you could push for something like this without harming your chances for reconciliation unduly.<P>------------------<BR>SoSad.59

Another custodial dad chiming in here.<P>It can be done.<P>This is good:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Due to our work schedules, I spend more time with our D than my W does. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Document, document, document!<P>This makes no difference:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>My W is/was involved in a EA/PA. She has told me she want's a divorce, but has taken no action yet. She is still in a "fog" and possibly withdrawal from her actions lately. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Unless you can show that this relationship has hurt her relationship with your daughter, like she spends all of her time with him and none with the daughter.<P>IMHO, this joint custody thing sux. Children need stability. Joint custody does not provide that. 50/50, unless you live on the same block, uproots the children too much and is not good.<P>If you would like to discuss further, I can be reached at bmstern@hotmail.com<P>Good Luck

Mike,<BR>It must be different from state to state. Here in Oh they don't use the term 50/50, they call it shared parenting and allow the involved parties to set up what they want. My x asked for the minimum, every other weekend and once a week. The state says this is the minimum that must be met if visitation can't be agreed upon.<P>There was nothing in the calculations for amount of time the kids spent with a parent.<P>I believe the kids have to have a "legal" residence for school residency, thus the reason for determining which house is the residential home.<P>Also it seems to me that most WS never want the kids that much anyhow unless it is for punishment of the BS, and the kids interfere with their dating. That was the case with my x. Now that they are married, she sees the kids a little more than when she and om lived in an apartment.