I have the craziest life of all... as if is not difficult enough when the marriage is not going well at all; I have two teenagers that make it even less bearable. My H has always been known for his bad temper. I would have to admit that since we've been working on our marriage, he has made a huge improvement. Nevertheless, he always engages himself in big ugly (not physical) fights, more so with my 13 yr old daughter. He goes thru her stuff, which I have a feeling is to see if she is hiding anything for me) and for whatever little thing those two are always at each other's throats. After the last fight, my D told me she could not live in the same place as her dad anymore. So I am kind of given the choice: my H or my D? this is a decision a mother should NEVER have to make. But if worst comes to worst... my children always come first. I'm I wrong for feeling this way??? A little history, things are not doing well at all with H. I am very confused as to how I want to work this. He is possesive and overly jealous. But he is doing his best to keep this family together. And yes, he is the father of my D. Please give me some advice... has anyone else gone thru something like this???

It is always difficult when the parents cannot provide a united position with respect to the children. An angry man is a proud man who feels a lack of respect. The way it is supposed to be, that should not happen. We have done much damage as a society to the fabric of the family unit...you situation is no exception.<P>You say that he has done much to improve things. Understand that his position of authority doe not allow his children to judge him, and her need for privacy notwithstanding, he is still supposed to be the head of the household. I noticed that my XW's near constant berating and belittling gave the green light to outright defiance from the children. I am not attempting to be chauvanistic here, it is still a cooperative effort, but he needs to be afforded the position of authority...the authority comes from the man, with your support. Differences can be ironed out in private, then the united position presented to the children. Where we went wrong was in arguing in front of them, and not insisting that they leave us alone to sort it out. The oldest became quite proficient at dividing us in the heat of the moment.<P>Your D is just plain <B>wrong</B>. She is young, and has the same lack of true respect for authority that seems nearly pandemic these days. I am not saying she is bad, she just has the basic premiss wrong. Truth is, he has the right to know. You have the right to know. Why does he feel it necessary to snoop? You say he is afraid you are hiding something...well, that is because of this divide and conquer thing. H & W need to keep their R out of it, you have not seen to that as a family. Plain and simple, not too pretty, but that's how I see it.<P>You seem to want to reconcile, and I applaud that effort. It is important to give it the best shot, not just your best shot. I am not trying to tell you that you and D are wrong...but the situation <B>is</B>. The roles are confused, and that is the problem.<P>Your H needs to continue to work on his anger/pride issues. I can tell you from experience that pride is a sin, and will bring about his ruination. God does not like proud men, he <B>loves</B> humble people the most...Remember that Jesus said that the meek shall inherit the earth...think about that in terms of life here and now...that's what he was talking about. I thought he meant at his second coming...stupid me! He meant <B>now</B>!<P>I would like to communicate some things to your H, if he isn't too proud to listen to himself a few years down the road...divorced, and about to lose everything he has worked for for 20 years. I am not bitter, I have been humbled by my Lord, and I just want him to humble himself before you give up on him like my wife did. She is a wonderful person, and I regret losing her more each day. I'd really hate to see him in my shoes some time later, wishing he had listened. It is the saddest thing I know of for a man...especially a proud one.<P>Take care, treat him gently, but be firm. Talk to your D...I'm not sure that you, or her understand his position, which is too bad, because it is not the two of you that he is angry with, its the lack of respect for his authority, which you all participated in. If he can lay aside his pride/anger, then the two of you can respect his authority in his house, and your family will be restored. The Bible contains most all of the instructions...just not much of the 'how-do-I' stuff...you will find much help on this site, in the articles.<P>God Bless you, I pray that things work out for you. -Mike

WFH... Thanks for your honest, down to the point advice. You sure seemed like you’ve been thru it all;<BR>Can I be really noisy and ask how long have you been divorced for and what happened??? I guess I did <BR>not give enough history on my situation. We’ve been having problems for too long now. And to be quite<BR>honest, most of the time I just feel like giving up. Granted that I am not a quitter I just find myself going crazy confused. Most of the time I just want to sleep forever. I am quite religious and I know God lives.<BR>But at this point in my life, this is not enough. As I read your reply, is obvious how much you love her<BR>but like the song goes, in a relationship, whoever loved the most was the happiest, and in this case it sure<BR>looks like it was you. At times I also think that some relations are just not meant to be, no matter how <BR>long they lasted for. Maybe God wants us to know a few wrong people before we meet THE ONE, so that<BR>we would appreciate that person more. I know I don’t make much sense at times, but it sure feels good <BR>to let some of it out. Talk to me some more, I like your input. LadyDante<BR>

Well, you'll never have to push <B>that</B> button twice, I assure you. I like to talk, and I like to listen.<P>As far as the one, and all of that, it is largely up to you, not them. Love does not happen to you. I like the notion of that sort of romantic position, but it isn't realistic. Read 'Love Must Be Tough' by Dr. James Dobson for a real eye opener. You mentioned he 'who loves the most'..his take on that is 'whoever cares the least is in control.' Truer words were never spoken.<P>Too nosey...on this forum? LOL, sister...no such animal!<P>Here is a kicker for you...D was on 23 May...this year. XW lives...oh...500 feet away...more like 350, but who cares?<P>I have been through a lot. Our problems have a rather long history, too...10 years. This does not happen overnight, that much is certain.<P>I understand that your Giver is running low, especially when you hae the kids in the mix, like we do. They drain it pretty well, too. Please realize that your Taker is causing your confusion. You are a special woman, beautiful, I am sure, and seem to have a wonderful spirit. You need to be told these things...but not by me, unfortunately. I cannot help you too much in that regard. This is the danger of the EA...he is supposed to do that, but you know that. His Giver is in the same shape that yours is. The asd thing is that it has nothing to do with it 'being right', or him being 'the one', or loving each other. Your Taker will demand servicing. Its that simple. His is fairly well screaming now, but maybe he doesn't accept it from you at this point. That is the danger od the EA for him...Some little missy can come in, service hos Taker, and there you have it. It has nothing to do with his love for you, or the family. In fact, he won't even be aware of it. He will 'fall in love', and that will be the end of it. Same goes for you. The newness of it all (i.e. the 'romantic aspect of it) makes us think 'this is it', but that cannot sustain itself...you see where you are with your last 'one', does he seem like 'the one' now? You probably doubt that he ever will be again, but that is a responsibility that you <I>both</I> share. Its doable, but most people cannot 'give' that much after a while. Its a shame, and I feel God crying about it all of the time. We just fail to 'get it'.<P>You say that you a a religious woman, that is great for you. This situation is one way God tells us, 'Move closer to me, my child', can you hear Him asking that? I can. <A HREF="http://www.restorem.org" TARGET=_blank>Restore Ministries</A> has some materials that will help. I had wanted to discuss this with your H, that is why I mentioned it (^). He seems to fit the mold here, and the answers are simlpe enough...you tend to create a cycle of pride/anger until you get whacked in the head. If you don't respond, you end up where I am...eyes way tooo wide open, and impotent to fix it. God will restore my life after I have 'suffered a while', I am not certain how hardened my XW's heart is, but God assures me that if I please him, He will help soften her heart. Time is my ally, although it doesn't seem like that now.<P>Your marriage is absolutely fixable, and you need not do 'all of the work, either. You say he is working on it, and if he is willing to listen to me, I think I could tell him some helpful things. This is not a judgement. For the most part, men have no idea how wrong we are about this. Our lives have given us no tools to work on this with, and we get frustrated. That's a shame. I am absolutely certain that your H is an honorable, loving man...this is not a character flaw, more like a vitamin deficiency. We allow abusers to blame their gene pool, and basically we have, as a society decided that anyone else is to blame for things. Husbands, and fathers are not usually afforded the opportunity to do this, although we try. Sound familiar? I mean, I am sure you get blamed for things that you know are not your doing...the kids, too. He puts this together in a very complex fashion that defies logic, and reason. Anger cuts off any ability to make rational conclusions. My mother used to get bent out of shape when cabinet doors were left open. She said dad didn't like that. My father is not that anal, but if things weren't so, his mood was different. He never said anything, but we all walked on eggshells as a result. He sensed that, too. and the whole thing was quite confusing to me. I thought, what an [censored]. My father is not an [censored], he is one of the most compassionate, and respectable people I have ever known. I understand how he felt for so many years...only now. He never once complained, or said anything about it to anyone.<P>Love is work, make no mistake about it. You are free to make your own mind up. After all, I am only a digital voice here, and life is tough....no doubt there. Marriage requires a committment that few can muster. Most marriages that do succeed are convenient lies, only skin deep. The rest end in divorce, like mine did. My committment to my marriage has not changed. God hates divorce, and the lenient interpretation of what Jesus said about fornication (sex before marriage), and NOT adultery...go back to the Greek (New Testament is pretty much all Greek)...the word is actually 'unchasteness'...Strong's concordance will clarify that certain words were <B>added</B>...big mistake...the Bible actually says not to add, or delete. That is beside the point, however, because divorce is a fact of life...50% of first...65% of second marriages end in divorce. The reason is Givers give up, and Takers take over. In the case of abuse, it is somewhat different, but it is still the Taker doing the abusing, wouldn't you agree?<P>Put your H with me...tell him I want to help HIM...not necessarily your marriage. My time here, and at other places, my converations, reading, and soul-searching tell me it is NOT your relationship that is the trouble...its is the roles that have been carved out FOR you, not BY you. Blame is senseless in any case...responsibility is the answer...for all FOUR of you...want to be afamily? Meet as one...DO NOT BLAME...straighten out the roles, and make absolutely certain that in your house they remain that way. Outside influences be damned...this is your lives we are talking about! (I know I need not remind you of that, but the devil works in mysterious ways, too!) -Mike

This did not really belong here, so I started a new thread, it was a reply to waiting_for_her. (I deleted it her so as not to waste peoples time).<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by sad_n_lonely (edited July 12, 2001).]

I think <I>D</I> needs a real clear picture (complete with stats, photos, video and personal stories) of what happens to runaways: rape, prostitution, squatting in abandoned buildings, beatings, other forms of abuse, drugs, disease, mental illness, poverty and anonymous death. Even organizations formed to help runaways ... are often staffed (and even founded--like <I>Covenant House</I>) by people ready to exploit them. <P>Of course the marriage needs improving, and so does the parenting. But good, justified, honest fear needs to be instilled so that running away is not an attractive option.

Same here...sorry Dante. -Mike<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 12, 2001).]

My heart is not into being here today but I do have one work of advice:<P> <B><I>COUNSELING</I></B><P>For everyone. Especially daughter.

Dante,<BR> I could not resist reading you other thread...sorry, but I will post my thoughts here...I respect your desire to keep it 'girls only'...makes good sense.<P> You can tell when you strike a nerve here <I>real quick</I>, and it looks like you hit a couple there. My XW said the very same things that you are saying. Not about sex directly, but her implication was clear enough. Oddly enough, when I started trying to convince her to give it one last go, she stated, 'What if it takes a year? I am not anti-you, I'm anti-relationships.' I think that a lot of where her head and heart is at is this same issue that you are speaking of in your other thread. I wish she hadn't done it...too late for that. We both know that we have something very real and special when we are together, but she is just not here now. I can see it very clearly, and I think you are in a similar place. She is 38, we married almost straight out of AF Basic Training, both about 19, and away from home for the first time. She had had a miscarriage, and her fiance had dumped her, and she went into the AF (more, or less, I think) to chase after him (original BS, now WAS). I think she regretted marrying so soon...not marrying me necessarily, but the WAS thing took over at some point. One week prior to D, she said 'I don't want to D, either', but I could not give her the space she needed then. I believe that it would not have mattered anyway. OM is D'ed, too...Hmmmmmm. Sad, but true...all of it.<P> I am sorry for your sit(s), you've got a lot coming at you at once, and that is, well...overwhelming. I do agree with the majority of the responses you got however. If you end up D'ing, and wait a while to get over the marriage, get your bearings, and rediscover yourself...you will be able to bring the things to a new relationship that are necessary for success. I also understand your deep need for some intimacy...not sex, I know the difference after all...but we both know that they tend to go hand in hand, those two. Sex without intimacy is cheap and degrading to you, not of you...Intimacy without sex eventually gets frustrating...but you are already frustrated, so....<P>I just thought you might appreciate knowing that there are others in a similar sit. I am deeply hurt by my XW's actions, but I do not resent her for it at all. I do resent the OM, however, but...honestly...there are what 6 billion other people on this rock that I don't even know...I just put him back in that box, and will leave him there. The lack of character/conscience he is displaying is punishment enough. I am just going to have to be there for her if she wants me to be when he shows her that same lack of character/conscience.<P>This is by no means easy for me...as I do not have the benefit of getting my ENs met now...just realizing that I have been in this boat for 10 years...Hmmmmm. That is okay (good, Mike...you have no choice!)...I will be able to handle that...this is a growth opportunity for you...I think that is what the other folks wre trying to tell you...be bigger than those feelings...its not that simple, but the reward is great when the work is hard.<P>Have a good day, Dante...I care. -Mike