Thinker,<BR> I am a BS, like you. My story can be found in the following threads:<BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002952.html" TARGET=_blank>New Beginnings</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/003007.html" TARGET=_blank>waiting_for_her</A><BR><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/003504.html" TARGET=_blank>THUD! Here it is, etc.</A><P> I am currently examining my situation (and the 'larger' one, too) in order to get some peace with how the process 'happened', what to do to 'move on', and to attempt to repair my relationship with my XW at <I>any</I> level.<BR> It seems to me that you are doing much of the same, as is your H. There are a lot of attempts to justify behavior on both sides...we obviously differ in opinion, and I believe that there is much confusion on both sides of this issue. Your C is not available...I don't have one, but my goal is the Truth. I still am committed to my (former) marriage in the sense that I do not accept that it was ended with the dignity it deserved, and I feel that my XW, and I are not dealing with the real issues...the same mistakes are inevitable in this case on both sides.<P> If you would, please...explain your side of your sit to me. I'm not sure what to think about your H posting here, too. I would not want my XW to read most of this, because she has put me on the outside of her life, and I don't think it is fair to me to have my internal workings revealed to her. The clandestine (right...I live in a town of ~1,000 people...no secrets there!) nature of the EA/PA leaves me wanting an equal share of privacy. The pre-Plan A gyrations typical of a BS, and the WS's taking advantage of that, and lack of respect also make it necessary to gain some perspective in an equally clandestine manner. I am tired of my XW getting all that she had before the D, and not having any sort of answerability, or reciprocation. I am not talking about the unrequited love aspect, I can still provide that...its just that she has made her life none of my business, and I'm all for some parity in that respect.<P>So, with that in mind....what is going on with you? How have you arrived at where you are? You say that you are in Plan A...do you think that Plan A is appropriate at this point? (Just asking...really.)<P>How do you view the contention (by my XW) that our 18 year marriage was not right in the first place? Have you read 'Love Must Be Tough' by James Dobson? If not, please do...it is very enlightening, and it was very cathartic for me to read. Many things were revealed/explained to me in that book. Combined with what I have read here, and at <A HREF="http://www.weiner-davis.com" TARGET=_blank>Divorce Busters</A>, it has begun to make some sense. It does not make it hurt any less, but it has given me much needed insight. I think it is great that your H is 'thinking' about it. I would say that was the exception to the WAS rule of justification at the personal level without any responsibility at the outside level, namely...I did it, I feel right, and I don't really care what you think, nor do I respect you enough to end this marriage in an appropriate, dignified manner. No, that is the issue to me. XW does not want to come back...I understand that all too well. I do not agree with the underhanded and disrespectful way that she and the OM went about it...behind my back...and in front of my face at the same time! He even pretended to be concerned for me...yet he never said...yes, Mike that's tough, and BTW I am having an affair with her, too...like he would, but really...let's try to at least fake some character, since we are acting in the first place. I remember that look he had when I happened to look around one day, and 'catch' him with her arm around her at the local watering hole. I reminded me of times I caught my kids with their 'hands in the cookie jar.' The look says, 'I know that I am wrong, but thought that I would not get caught!' The man has no character, that much is evident...nor does my XW at this point. That is sad, and I cannot help but worry about a society that seems unable to support the nurturing of character, and integrity. There is no loyalty in the way they behaved. No respect for me, our children, our marriage, or themselves. It is absolutely astonishing to me that people would twist and distort such immuutable things in order to justify such blatantly self-serving behavior.<P> Now, about 'us'. I did the usual BS things...begging, pleading, crying. The straight out stuff, mostly. There was no secret plot to control...it was right in her face, and it was an attempt to influence, not control. I'm not sure where a WAS gets the notion that the person at the bottom of their shoe has a volition, or ability to control anything. Our problem is that we have no real control...over ourselves, or them. Dobson states that the person who cares the least controls the relationship...think about that. I'm not saying that you can gain anything by not caring, but I do know that it is in your own best interest to remove yourself from the relationship...since they have already done so themselves. Now, I would not suggest that you engage in another R at this point...there is no need to continue escalating this beyond the point it is at now, and my integrity demands that I not do that. My handle is frequently confusing to people. I would like a reconciliation, but I am not willing to attempt one now. I am in a similar situation to you. I am waiting for her to stop her PA with my former friend to at least restore my ability to move in my circle of friends again. I know of no BS who is willing...after being D'ed for less than two months, to socialize with the X and OP. What are your views on that?<P>Anyway, I understand if you don't want to join in...this is just plain odd!<P>I am sorry that you are at this point in your marriage. Its sad, and IMHO...easily repaired. The trouble is that we are not loveable to them in our <B>current</B> state, and they are....well, having sex with other people, among other things.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 13, 2001).]

I feel what my H did was not done properly. If he wanted a divorce, he should of made an appointment with the lawyer and did what should of been done first. But he should of stated very clearly how he felt. I didn't know that he wanted a divorce and was serious about having an affair. That he said was not intentional, but he did not stop it one bit. Yes, we all have our own morals, and this proves that his morals are quite different than mine are as a christians values.<P>We've been married for 23 years, with 4 grown children, ages 15-22. Yes, the marriage I felt was pretty good, in the beginning. But I was not getting my EN met, I was stay at home mom trying to make it with feeding 4 children. I did cleaning house to bring in money and babysitting. When husband started business, I took calls and bookwork. I am a very hard worker. I made his income stretch to pay bills, feed a growing family and have some money for extra curricular activities. I am the organized soul in this marriage, keeping records and trying to get the place organized and finding things. H is sloppy, without criticism to him. But if it wasn't for me our heating and A/C business wouldn't of done as well as it is doing. He is a good troubleshooter, but all the fine details he hates.<P>I had a flaw that I didn't realize would interfere with my marriage. I placed my father at the top. He was my comrade with my mom. I am a twin (brother) and he excelled in school and music, ended up being my mothers favorite. I was always casted aside (my feelings). My mother gave my brother the permission to get a dog. The dog hated my brother and became my dog. My brother wanted a guitar, when I wanted a guitar I had to pay for it with my own money, cause she said I wouldn't continue. He went to college right after High School. I worked and then after 2 years of working decided to continue my education at night. I eventually entered nursing school. My mother told me to my face that I would not make it. My husband and I were dating at that time, and my husband is the one who helped me make it to graduation. My father was always there silently for me, supporting me, but not interfering with my mother. I guess I placed my father up there knowing deep in his heart he was there for me but afraid to speak. That is why I didn't choose a husband that was in my dads shoes. I wanted a man that stood up for himself and was kind and caring to his wife. My father was always kind to my mother.<P>My husband is a controller to some degree. I let him be the final choice in big decisions. I felt he was intelligent to make a decision that was vital. He does have good values, but right now they have been muffled by the OW. He usually was a good family man, not lately. He wanted to keep the business running with full steam ahead, not so now. He is barely keeping the coals red. Yes, he controlled this affair by his wanting to do it his way and only his way. He told Jennifer that he will be done with the OW when he is ready to be done. No one was going to tell him what to do. He told Jennifer twice already it was over, and failed. Jennifer told him no talking to her until hurdle 1 is done, then we can move on to the path of blissful marriage. <P>I am an attractive woman, petite, lost weight on infidelity diet, hard worker, educated, good with the kids, and want to provide a safe home for my husband. This was not always a safe home for my H. I have to admit, I did not feel he loved me, and I did not love him like I should. We dated and had fun. We met at a run for your life class. We did exercises, ran track, and played volleyball afterwards. I am athletic in a sort of way. Was not in high school that much, but love being outdoors. I ran with the guys in the run for your life class. My husband says he loved to watch my butt, he would be in back of me and see my light brown pony tail swish around my back. He is the first man I have ever felt true affection and love for. He has had a difficult childhood, abandoned by his alcholic father, mother and father divorced when H was 3. Alcoholic father still drinks and is drinking himself to death. He was not a good child supporter, therefore, his mother had to raise 2 boys (1 year apart) by herself and support them almost by herself. She did not participate in the boys activities at school that much. She worked a lot of hours or was too tired. I know my husband regrets this, I on the other hand did have support by my parents. H feels neglected and abandoned by his parents and feels alone. I am sorry that I have made my husband feel abandoned. I really wish I could go back years and provide the enrichment he needed and the EN to be filled. <P>I am in Plan A, I guess, not sure. Jennifer on last appointment talked about Plan B. Says H is taking his time, time to do something drastic. I don't really want to be out of his sight, but dealing with the OW on a regular basis just tears me apart. Because all his caring and protection and love are directed towards her. Like counseling says, there is non left for me. No way he can divide all this between 2 woman. I am trying to do Plan A faithfully today and on. H states that the affair is almost over. I will believe it when the cell phone is handed over to me. I talk to Jennifer this coming week on Wednesday. Hopefully, H will be there. I have a bit of excitement in me that this may be over, I pray it is. Therefore, there may be no need for Plan B. Like I was told, once in Plan B chanced of getting back together is very slim.<P>As far as your wife goes, I feel she is acting like a totally fogged WS. She really has not given this marriage a chance to blossom. I feel real sorry for your 4 kids. Divorce hurts kids of any age, the statistics are out on that. Does she really think she has it better with the OM? Does she really know how she is hurting the children daily and you? You seem to have expressed your concerns and hurt to your wife and she seems to have basically thrown it back into your face. But this is the WS action of a F|OGGED person. Send her cards, a little gift here and there. Keep telling her you love her. I can tell you love her very much. I would continue to express my love and pray for peace. I am praying for my husband and I, last night I was in a bad mood, not really sure why, hormones, or my dads situation is causing me to waiver. But I really talked to God and was on the boards until 5am our time. I feel better today, feel some sunshine coming back into my eyes. Life is messy and I sure would not vote for this on my worst enemy. <P>What gets me is Mike your friend betraying you like he did. How well did you know him? He seems to have a problem dealing with negative atmospheres. He seems to not beable to face matters to the core. He seems to polish them and make whatever he can out of a bad situation. I would point blank sit with him and confront all the issues, and ask why he did what he did. This friend could be your worst enemy. One day I hope he will wake up and sniff the air away from the dirty fumes of contamination. I hope your friend gets help and sees you as someone he hurt very badly.<P>To socialize with your X and OP, I could not do it either. It would bring back to many memories. The WS does not see it that way, they just see it as a new light to feed upon. The BS sees it has a danger zone and stay away as much as possible. Yes there will be interaction, but I would make it very limited. I hate the thought that another woman has been with my husband. The intimate, sexual talks were for the wife and husband to have only. To beable to do this and not divorced is inconceivable to me. The dirty thoughts and language was so inappropriate and disloyal. That is where I feel vows were not kept by the WS of you and I. My H , OW this is her 2nd affair. My H probably has not told you. Therefore, I wonder what type of woman she is. She told her husband of the first affair, but now wants to keep this one a secret. She sure is a heck of a WS, my husband still loves her very much. They did talk of marriage and living together with her kids around and our kids around. I hope my husband sees her as she really is. Screwed up and unable to handle lifes flaws and contention.<P>I don't mind talking to you, but I do not have the strong words like you and my H. So I guess I am sort of simple to an extent and believe that God will be there for all of us. I have read your posts to my H and feel you two are combating issues to an extent. Hopefully, there are no illwills between the two of you. H needs someone to talk to that is combatative with his verbal attacks (heehee). Anyways, I will look forward to your posts with H and myself. Thanks for all your input.

<B>Thank you for posting here.</B><P>No, like I said, your H is very intelligent, and articulate. He is just looking for answers, too. I don't take it personally. I don't even always take my D personally...not when I'm asleep, anyway! <P>I have a major issue with the cart/horse positioning thing, too. Given my sit, I <B>do</B> take it seriously in that respect, from XW...and OM...and certain friends. The rest are too scared/embarassed to have volition. All are forgiven, with the exception of OM. God will have to thump me some more on that one!<P>Somewhere, I have a reference to a book that examines the over/under responsibility issue that you refer to...I will have to find it...there was a post here recently with respect to it, too...can't recall. Maybe one on my mentors will help out. It is a bit that refers to have we tend to compensate in a negative way, and there is a further statement about leaving home, but not leaving home.<P>Now, this is an interesting facet to your sit that I want to explore a bit. OW is a WAS, too? Oh....hmmmm. Too bad. I wonder how that fact influences things on, well...all four sides? It certainly must put a unique 'spin' on it. My sit is also interesting from its unique perspective, as well. There is always something new and different that surfaces as a result, but that could just be the fact that I am no expert on, well...anything, but especially on <B>this</B>. Did you know OW/OW's H prior to this?<P>No, your H did not mention his PA at all. I just happened to see your post after the thread started. Nor did he mention that she is a WAS on her 2nd PA. These things may not have rated mentioning, I don't know. Not that it matters with respect to discussing things, but it is, uh, a little relevant in discussing the <B>smaller picture</B>, donchathink, Thinker?<P>That doesn't affect the conversation that he and I engaged in, however, so I guess he thought it irrelevant, and I suppose that I agree. <P>I knew OM for about a year B4 the bomb. My XW works at the library here, and OM and his kids go there a lot. I had known his sister and her H because I've coached their two younger kids in soccer for a few years. I also knew his other sister, and her H for about a year. We live in a town of about 1,000 people. When my oldest son began washing dishes at a restaurant/lounge, I had to pick him up from work, because it would be after curfew. We only lived two blocks away, but....Frequently, I'd have to wait, so I'd sit, and listen to the live music. I began to meet OM that way. We knew each other pretty well considering the length of time involved. He was recently D'ed, and he was aware of our troubles. His sisters began to socialize with XW more and more...she went out with me less and less. At that time, he was involved with the owner's sister, who lived in Colorado. XW was impressed with his courting skills, and was telling me that that is what she wanted from me. I obliged as well as I could, but she was already gone then, so I basically wasted a year trying to do that, and she LBed, I think, in an attempt to get me to end it. Once he broke up with the long distance GF (I guess he got tired of driving to Nebraska to meet her.), I think that is when it started. I did notice that his sisters were very calculated in their dealings with me from that point on...it's really just a great big pile of stinking garbage, if you ask me....oh, you did, didn't you?<P>I find the differences in the initial relationship sad, and interesting. He says he was rescuing you, you say he liked your butt. Probably a little of both.<P>I noticed that you state that you felt somewhat overshadowed by the way your parents seemed to favor your brother, and that your H had a difficult childhood. This is what I feel is driving your sit more than anything else right now...baggage from the past. H would rather take it as it comes...much like (although not in that extremem, I am quite certain) his father. You, on the other hand, may be still looking for approval for who/what you are.<P>I hate the tendency to put things beyond our control in charge of our lives. It is the same lack of culpability that drives this stuff into D court. This gets much easier for everyone when we keep it in the here and now.<P>Thanks for lending your ear. I'll give your some peace now.<P>Take care. I hope that you get what's best for you. -Mike

Mike - My husband met the OW on the internet and then it progressed to personal e-mails that were between the two of them. Needless to say, I have not seen what was in these e-mails. H will not let me see them, unless there is a reconcillation between us. I feel this secrecy causes disention between us. He has secrets and I have to be honest with everything? My husband has the e-mails printed and in a safe deposit box. Then it progressed to the cellphone in Dec. of 2000. Then in Jan or 2001 he got new cellphones, told me for the business, but was basically for the OW. On each page 9/10 of calls were to her. You can imagine the phone bills we have, she being in West and we on Mid east. The phone bills are continuing. My husband has taped all her voicemails and filed those in the safe-deposit box. This is what upsets me greatly, why is he keeping all this in the safe deposit box. I feel he will never disconnect from her and wants these things to keep the connection with the OW who he says he is disengaging himself from? What do you think of that? Therefore, no I don't know this woman and wish to not know her at this time. I don't have any respectable thoughts towards her at all. I know this hurts my husband greatly, but I can't think very highly of her at all. I still feel this will not be her last affair, she seems to be screwed up in the head. She seems to be dissatisfied with life, family and all. I believe she needs to be on a antidepressant. Husband feels she should not, but that is his opinion. Maybe unstable minds run in her family. <P>My husband brings up his childhood quite a bit. Especially not feeling his mothers attention to him. I feel he seems to be rejected by the ones he loves. Now his OW is rejecting him too. This is going to be a hard core break for my husband. He says he feels there will be no problem with withdrawal. Being the analytical type, he would feel that, but what we see on the outside of actions and moods will speak for itself. I have already noticed some sparks flying, don't mention for what use. <P>I just showed you a little of ourselves to show what type of childhood we both had. I did have loving parents and they were there for all of our activities. (I say OUR because of being a twin we did quite a lot together). To put an end to it, my mom and I are very close now. I guess I put her in a different perspective and have forgiven her in acting the way she did at the time. I don't feel my <BR>husband has done the same towards his mom, he brings it up frequently. I could be wrong and hope I am.<P>I feel for you and your friend who betrayed you with your wife. A friend like that, who needs enemies. He knew what he was doing and not to face the truth to you in the beginning shows that he has a problem. Seems the WS does not think of actions at all. All they do think about is themselves and themselves only. It seems what they can get out of this for themselves and the OP is of the only importance in their life right now. Your wife seems to be flying a rough course. Does she really know this guy, your friend? I feel lucky that the OW is so far away, and is committed to her husband (per say). If she would quit talking to my husband I would greatly appreciate it. <P>I would like to continue talking to you and getting insight from you being the BS as I am. You give me things to think about and react to.<P>My h<BR>

Yes, and they have been hermetically sealed in a mayonnaise jar on Funk & Wagnalls' porch since 10 am yesterday...no one, but no one has seen these...oh, sorry...I had a flashback there. Are you serious? A safe deposit box? Puh-leeze.... <P>No, she doesn't know him.<P>So, this is expensive in terms of money, too. Great, just great. It just keeps getting better, doesn't it? Sigh.<P>I have spenet a lot of time discussing how I feel about the WS/BS aspect, but that is not my main concern in my situation. The single most devastating aspect of it to me is how it has affected how my children perceive themselves, and what damage it has done to my credibility as a male role model for them...and the poor example of fidelity, and honesty in a relationship. Most of what I have attempted to convey/teach my sons has been predicated upon the notion of having a value system that is morally 'doable', and demonstrating integrity by action for integrity's own sake. I always followed that up with: and life will reward you for that. I have so many things going wrong now, that my oldest son dismisses it all as bunk. He said: why do the right thing dad? It doesn't matter anyway. All I could say then was its a matter of being true to yourself. He said, screw that...look at what that got you. He left, and has not been back since. He will return, I'm sure, but...it isn't too reassuring. My 15 year old son overheard the revisionist history spiel, and asked me if that made him a [censored]...being born in a loveless marriage, and all. I told him that that was not the case when the past was the present, and that the past was not rewritten by me. Besides, I love him, his mother loves him, he was born with my last name, is my biological son, and that in itself makes him legitimate in my book. He said that was all that he cared about anyway. (He is literally leaking character all over the place, that one!) S3 and I have talked a lot about where our lives are going, and for a 13 year old, he is very pragmatic, and reasons well in these matters. He really surprised me last night, and this morning. S4 is suffering, though. He just doesn't understand at all, and I am little help to him in that respect. All I can give him is that we will be okay, maybe not now, but we will be okay. I asked him to try to be content last night. He doesn't have to try to be happy, just content. He actually understood that, but his eyes have an awfully far away look for a 6 year old. He's okay during the day, but at night, he gets a little needy, and inconsolable...maybe he is just mirroring me, I really don't know, but I've got to get that one worked out ASAP. We have discussed it (S2 and S3 and I) and we are making sure that we keep him engaged, and try to be upbeat. Its not easy, however.<P>I did not mean to imply that your family was dysfunctional, or anything...I am sorry about that. I did find it interesting to note that you are a twin...I assume that you are fraternal twins, no? The reason that I assume that is you seemed to be indicating a somewhat opposite (even given the gender difference) experience from your brother. I have not seen that in identical twins. My sister's girls are frats, very different in every respect. Please tell me that your brother's name is <B>not</B> Gary, or Barry, or Larry...please. My nieces are Shana and Dana, and I told my sister when they were born...DON'T DO THAT! It so cute, it may damage them! LOL She never listened to me, either! Matching outfits...all of it! They are very intelligent young women, however, and they have their mother's strength of character, although for some reason, they make awful choices in terms of mates. In that respect, they are identical, anyway. Today, the 'older' one is taking her fiance there to meet my FOO...wish I were that fly on the wall at my mom's house today!<P>So, has H ever said that all he is doing is 'beating you to the punch?' He does give the impression that the D is a foregone conclusion. I'd say that there was a little bit of an issue in that respect. Are you in any way like your MIL? Do you represent her to H? (Maybe by rejecting you, he is rejecting her back?) That's pretty heavy, but it may be something to explore with him. It would go a long way toward explaining his side of it. OW's rejection may actually bolster that in him...one more reason to reject you. Then again, the silver lining/half full glass of water may mean that he will realize these things, and the fog may lift. I wouldn't want to presume anything, I'm just trying to interject some perspective from outside the sit.<P>Your H has indicated that he has ended it, you say that OW is ending it...what is the status? This is pretty common...its over, its not, repeat as able/necessary. I'd be surprised if your C accepts that. I'd also insist on him turning the documentation over to C as a symbolic gesture, plus a Norton wipefile on the hard drive. Perhaps thermite charges just to make sure. (If I were the C...not sure its wise for you to do the insisting there. He may get defensive in that case, and it would be a shame for that to be the 'deal breaker'.) What do I think of it? If he is keeping it...in a fireproof vault that you have no access to...then that is not disengaging...it sounds like BS BS to me! (Yes, and I thought that being one, or that other was difficult...I do not envy your H at all in that respect!)<P>No, my XW does not know him that well, but I feel that by hanging with his sisters she was more or less led to, or 'fixed up' with him. She definitely made it abundantly clear for several months that she perferred his company over mine, to the extent of having him sit at the bar in the stool I was accustomed to. I arrived there one night to find him there...he did not offer me the seat. She offered to have me pull a stool up <I>behind</I> her, facing him. I declined. It was quite humiliating, as I felt it was evident to all what that meant. I know that he knew. His eyes speak a language that I am fluent in, it seems. His body language told me the score weeks before she even hinted at the bomb. I guess that was my time for denial...that's when my friends began to tell me he would never do that, and his sisters would occupy me while they would talk...divide and conquer. I'm not sure that the OP 'gets' anything, either. I'm pretty sure its really all about the WAS...the OP is just another thing that they 'get' for themselves. Love is pretty far removed from it all, IMHO. -Mike

Mike - Yes a safe deposit box. I have not been allowed to read the material, but I now have access to the box. The only way H can get the material is with both of us present at the same time. This inferiates me, that he has these secrets from me. This is a connection he still has with the OW. The thing that makes me even sadder, is he doesn't have e-mails from his wife, cards from his wife, presents from his wife, or sexual connotations from his wife in the safe deposit box. It is like his little secret and no one else can share his secret except his OW. He tells me the material is for a writer, which he would like to be one day. What does a stuffed red bear have to do with writing a book? What does these intimate cards sent to each other have to do with writing a book? I suggested to him to throw the red bear away, he said no. See, there is this tie that he is not willing to give up, he still wants her in his life and to have this stuff in case she gives up her marriage and he gives up his marriage and then they can start over where they left off. This is my opinion from the BS that is hurting and feels unloved. There are things that I would like to tell you but H has asked to keep from telling you on this board. He stated he didn't want it posted here, but if you wanted to e-mail we could.<P>As far as expense, yes it is expensive. My H has informed me that he spent money on the OW. This just is not the way a H conducts his life and takes care of his family. Kept asking H how am I gonna pay this bill, and he would tell me to put some aside. We will figure it out. H says that he needs to be responsible to the OW. What do you think of that, not only does he pay his cell phone bill but some of hers. H states that she doesn't have much money, and that <BR>he felt it was his responsibility to pay the calls because he wanted to talk to her. Did he make her dial the phone and open her mouth? How can a woman accept money from a man that has 4 kids to take care of and must know that money here is tight. If I were her, I would of sent the money back and just said we can't talk that long on the phone. Lets go back to the computer. This is another reason I don't like the woman. She doesn't seem to use good logic and care about anyone else, just what she gets out of the situation and that is all. I still feel she needs to have a few screws tightened, this is an irrational woman causing marriages to break up. I don't know, I would like to ask what her intentions were and how she can damage another family because of her selfishness. <P>Yes, the kids have been affected tremendously. Our oldest son is 17 and saw material (e-mail) H was writing to OW and it was inappropriate for his eyes to see. Do you imagine what went through this mind of a 17 year old to see his father write material of this matter to another woman this kid did not know? (Dont misinterpret me, H is not a sex pervert). Our one daughter is upset with her dad, her dad calls this OW our daughters nickname that dad gave to her as a little child. I am upset by that, that name was for our younger daughter and no one else. H does not seem at all remorse about using that name. Our daughter I don't think knows he calls her this nickname. But she is still upset with her dad. Things are calmed down now. She still loves her dad, but like she says, why marry, what happened to morals and vows? Our youngest son when he found out came to me and cried. He was 15. I could tell he was upset and asked. We talked for quite awhile. He is sensitive, and cries easily anyways. This child has gone through a lot this last 6 months, which makes me so upset. This was his first year in high school. He is a good saxophone player, and I really put emphasis on the sax, and I like music, so our son knows this is genuine interest and love in his music. What inferiates me is that when H says divorce will not affect grown children that much. Read the statistics. Actually someone on the boards wrote how their parents divorce affected her when she was an older child. Don't these WS have feelings or thoughtfulness to others besides themselves and the OP? I was so upset reading that your son feels he was born a [censored]. How could a WS do this to their son. This is so sad. This kid must feel mixed in emotions and I agree when he said, why try to do the right thing, look what happens. Tell me divorce or separation does not affect an older child. WS you all, are you seeing these posts and what is happening to the kids. Your 6 yr old must be really withdrawn to have all this happen in his young years. He is just a kid starting to make friends in school, learn and socialize with kids his age. I feel he needs counseling or some kind of professional help. This has got to be so hard on the little guy.<P>As far as H saying he has ended it. I am not sure, but he has told Jennifer 2 times before that it was done. And of course it wasn't, so we sit a wait. Yesterday, H told me he was ending it that day. He said maybe send her 2 more e-mails. Well, today he said he had to send her a few more e-mails. See the pattern is still there. He is not willing to cut the connection. Also, why doesn't she just not respond back if this is what she really wants. Why don't the two of them just let each be, and make their marriages their #1 responsibility. <P>I deep inside feel that a D is the only solution that my H wants. Read the posts, and the actions of this man. Does he sound like he wants a marriage with me? Does he seem to want to work on a marriage with MB? Jennifer in the last session we had told me it doesn't look good? He is justifying leaving and moving on to another woman, be it Debi or another woman. Husband seems to have just casted this marriage aside, and said it is time to move on. He knows he had to give up the OW for now, but I feel deep inside he is waiting for her to try her marriage and if it fails, he wants to be there next in line to get her. This is my opinion. There is very little caring for me, little thoughtfulness for me. But here I am protecting the OW from her H by not telling her H that his wife had another affair. My H seems to think that is okay.<P>When you have twins of opposite sex, they are fraternal always. No I am not like my mother in law. I am more practical, thrifty with money, do more with our kids, enjoy socializing with friends, and have family to socialize with. My H mother is a sort of a loner. She is a good person, but she has not involved herself in our childrens activities and done much with them. I will be a great grandmother and looking forward to that day to come. I know I will be a morally good grandmother, not having affairs behind me to hide. I will teach them about christianity with good morals. <P>It is kind of interesting for you to see both sides of a marriage. I don't know what is going to happen. Today I feel like crap. H is withdrawing from other woman, and I can see it is going to be tough. I will be there to support him and help him. But like today, I feel there is enough when things are not getting done. Today, he has been on the computer almost all day, except for a few minor events. Th We have a toilet downstairs that is in need of serious repair. Can't use, unless you fill a bucket up with water and pour in toilet to flush. I have microscopic colitis. When 6 people are in line to use the bathroom upstairs, this makes it very difficult for me to wait, when the response of my system says time to eliminate I don't have that much time. Therefore, I have to go use the woods. Just went down stairs to say please fix the toilet. Asked him this morning. Toilet has been down for 3 days. Not to say negative things about him, but I need to have a toilet to use and fast. His response is this is why I don't want to be married to you. I feel that I am not up to your standards in getting things done. I have a medical problem that I have to deal with, it seems this would be a priority so I can feel comfortable when my system acts up. Like I said, I am not #1 in his life. His Debi is #1 and will be that until he is totally done with her. Wish I had the caring and love H has towards the OW. <P>Well, I guess I will go for now, want to get some things done outside. Well get back on the boards tonight, when I feel I can take some time out of life to have a little conversation with another BS. Thanks for talking, this has been very beneficial to me, do you feel the same. Knowing my H on the boards is giving you more to think about. <P>

It seems to me that he is moving the things that mtter from you, and the chidren to her, and spending irresponsibly in order to ease the transition to her. Funny thing is, she has not put him first in her life. He is her backup plan. Curious that a man with so much vested in his thinking would do that. He does not impress me as one who would accept the second violin seat.<P>The toilet situation is just another manifestation of his tendency to twist everything to his advantage. I find it equally reprehensible that he would accept you using the woods. My friend, I want to plead with you not to accept that. Have your oldest son go to the library, and get a book on home repair. Toilets are not complex devices, they work on gravity. Either the plumbing is clogged (which I doubt...the upsatirs one works okay.) or the works in the tank is faulted. There may be a clog in the pipe connecting the soil pipe.) Maybe there is someone nearby who will help you gratis. I sure as hell would. I'd look into the water inlet valve...is your water hard water? Could just be mineral deposits in there. I am certain you will be irritated at how simple the fix will be. It is no use arguing with a man that can twist things so completely as to justify being a doormat to a voice...who hides his activities from all, who places his own misguided needs above his family, who is not even man enough to accept the consequences of his actions, and indeed makes his family bear the burden of his iniquity, etc.<P>Again, I have offended you with my miscommunication...I am sorry. I did not mean to imply that you were like her, only that you represent her to him. (Not that that would be a valid comparison...honestly, his convenient blindness about so many other things would make this one no surprise to me.)<P>Please clear you head...and I do not wish to offend, but he is an adept debater. That lends no credence to the things he says. All A are B, and all B are C does not imply that all A are C. That is elementary logic. He seems fond of logic, just doesn't seem to know it well. I do not claim to be a master logician, and logic falls utterly short when it comes to human interaction, but I did take logic in school, and I can recognize a flawed argument when I hear one. You say that you don't have those types of words...I understand what you mean when you say that. So does he. It is a controlling behavior when he does not communicate with you in a way that speaks your language. Do not allow that to happen. You are free to feel the way you do. It is not a sin to disagree, and he should know better than to try and sell you on something that you don't feel right about. In its best sense, that is the complimentary nature of your union. At its worst, it is a manipulation on both parts. He probably thinks that you are using your medical condition to manipulate him. The fog thickens, I'm afraid.<P>Yes, Sam is affected (6 year old). He was in Kindergarten when the bomb dropped, and his teachers sent home a report each day with a colored smilie face...Green=good, Yellow=some incidents, red=major violation. All year he had only two yellows for talking out of turn (wonder where he got that from? ). After the bomb was revealed...the last week of school...he had four yellows, and two reds. He got into two fights...fights...he's six. Yes, he needs some C, and honestly...I do, too.<P>My email is mtblake@netexpress.net <P>Take care, be strong...get that toilet fixed! God bless you. -Mike<P>

Mike - your writting is actually quite interesting. I find myself looking at your work of words and it reminds me of my husband. You have artistry in words that brings out emotional color. <P>The toilet thing, I talked with my husband last night. When one announces to me a medical problem, I analyze the situation in all degrees. I see what could happen, could be a difficult situation, emotional status and etc. I have a nursing background and needed to see through patients with regards to feelings, pain, and insecurity. Anyways, we talked about my condition, and that the need for a 2nd toilet was valid with 6 in the family. It is a part that needs to be fixed or bought and the darn thing won't come apart. So it is fixed and ready to use Hurray! I learned last night that things of this nature need to be expressed more clearly and brought to his attention in a clearer manner. So there was a communication gap, which I feel better today about, he did care but was unaware of the complete situation. He is a caring man, and will come to my aide or others when things need to be done. Yes he does procrastinate, but he won't if there is an immediate need. <P>I agree with you that my H is a backup plan for the OW. This is what I feel with the actions she is displaying. I could be wrong, and I hope I am. H talked more about her last night, and I still feel she is emotionally or psychologically not stable. He states he is a rescuer and that has attracted her to him beside other factors as well.<BR>Yes, H is not one to accept the second violin seat. This still surprises me with the caring he still has towards her, unless it is still the rescue situation. Things between the two of them seem to have dwindled to a voicemail of 1 and that is it. Husband, seems to have some symptoms of withdrawal, but he was not that bad yesterday. The next 2-3 weeks will be questionable. I feel this coming Wednesday, H will be talking to Jennifer with me, and we can finally move off of block 1. I am soooooo looking forward to this, and I pray that this is true! <P>I may represent my MIL some, but I am different. I care about people, animals, home and etc. I guess we both are caregivers. I am different in that I am more dependable with money and organization. She is a great person, and I am glad my H has her for a mother. Yes, like all of us, we could do better.<P>That does bother me that H seems to have no remorse in the affair. He accepts that he should of acted in a different manner towards our marriage. Divorce should of happened first, or he should of not let things go as far as they did. Being the BS is hard to access things of the WS. We talked more this morning about the affair, and their feelings and some of the outcomes.<P>Yes my H would of been a great corporate lawyer. He loves debate and analyizing. There is the control power over me with the language. No I don't let him control me with his words like I used to. I ask questions, learn, and if need to use the dictionary for clarification. I feel I am rising a couple of steps in knowing him more this way.<P>I feel for your little Sam. Getting the colored faces indicate that he is having a hard time dealing. I haven't thought of this, would counseling with your son together with you be beneficial? A counselor might be great to have every other session on a father/son level. This is something to think about. Also, getting him medical help, Sam might need to be on a low dose antidepressant. This is traumatic for this little guy, not knowing how his mother actually feels about him. Obviously, he knows that you are there for him. The prayers I said last night included your family and especially little Sam. <P>I appreciate your e-mail and will converse this week. Our 2nd daughter is in 4-H this coming week. So will be spending a lot of time with her at the grounds. She shows a quarter horse, with a beautiful long mane, her name is "Tattered Britches". Therefore, I will be doing the paperwork for business, telephones, and 4-H this week. <P>Hopefully, you and my H are finding more about each other and will help each other in your own ways. Infidelity is such a mess. I have asked God many times why did he let this happen? Why did he allow 2 people to immerse themselves in each other? Couldn't he fight off the devil? If 2 people are christians, why couldn't they stop it before it got so involved? As we are the BS, this is so hard to deal with. The Pain and the HURT are so strong. Talking with my H last night and this morning has helped. It hurt to hear these things, but I feel better knowing more and will continue to ask for more when I feel I can handle it. Somedays, I know is not a good time to disclose information to me. I am under a great amount of stress outside of this marriage, and I feel like breaking. So H asks me if I am OK, and continues on if he gets the positive. I like this, it makes me feel cared for and feels he is looking out for my health. Take care, and am praying for your family.