Hi everyone. <P>My husband served me with divorce papers last December along with a restraining order and was asking for primary custody of our boys. Just some background on me - I had an affair and he caught me. Anyway....I have been broken, apologetic, sympathetic to his pain and very open to everything that counsellors have told me will help him learn to trust me again some day. I have had no contact with the A and done everything I think that he needs to build something new with me. Anyway.....since last December - he has taken me to several marriage counsellors. This passed week he told me that he wants us to go to the elders of the church and tell them our story. I'm starting to wonder why he feels the need to go from counsellor, to counsellor and now to another group of men to air everything bad in our relationship for the last ten years. He has insisted on keeping the divorce "current and active" and I have seen bills from his attorney, so I know he continues to talk to them. I'm wondering how long I can handle this divorce hanging over my head and yet continue to be working (and working hard....I feel) towards restitution. Does anyone think that since I've shown some good faith with everything that maybe he should release these documents make a fresh start? It just hit me that maybe he is never planning on cancelling everything, but that he wants to continue to run me to every counsellor he thinks is good to - ok, I know I shouldn't feel this way - but to humiliate me. My husband tells me that it should be embarassing for me and it should be hard and that it will be hard for me for the rest of my life. I wonder if that means he just hasn't and can't forgive me. He says he has forgiven and he loves me and wants to be married, yet he insists on us living apart. I want to be as humble as I can in dealing with his feelings, because I know I hurt him like he has never been hurt before....but how much is too much?<P>Peggy

Peggy,<BR> Perhaps he hasn't heard what he wants to hear from the C, or you. Think about what they have said...what you have said. There is either a common thread, or they have not (or you have not) said something that he feels strongly about.<P> I suspect that (and I do not know your denomination, so this is strictly conjecture at this point...) he is looking for someone to tell him that he is justified, and that God will release him from his obligation. There may be a need to not only parade your mistake, but to back in his righteousness. My Bible charges me to not perform my righteuosness before man. In other words, do the right thing, but don't throw yourself a party about it. We do the right thing because it is the right thing, not for a reward. That is pride/ego.<P> I am sorry that you feel so persecuted. Jesus once ran into a woman in a similar situation to yours. I hope that you receive a similar blessing to the one he gave her. I know that if you forgive your H, and yourself, you will.<P> You are the one responsible for feeling any feelings that you have. Your values see to that. When a person does something wrong, and realizes that, takes steps to make restitution, and is trying to eliminate the cause of it, that is the extent of the 'punishment'. Your H is not acting with integrity. He has obviously <B>not</B> forgiven anything...the A...and probably much more. Is it possible that the Cs...as one voice...tried to tell him that EA/PAs don't happen strictly as a character flaw of the person involved? Have they tried to examine his part in this? Perhaps that is their 'mistake'. Traditionally, IMHO, Churches see that as a sin of the offender, and innocence on the part of the other. Maybe that is what he wants?<P>This does not sound too good to me, Peggy. I am sorry to have to tell you that what you fear is also what I believe the case is, but I would be less than honest with you if I failed to mention that. He is trying to drag you through the 'mud'. After that, I suspect that he will go through with it.<P>If it were me, I'd file. Sorry. -Mike

Hi Peggy,<P>I'm afraid my ex-H did the same to me. He wanted to punish me, and punish me good. Indeed he did, by moving in and out three times in a year, and by ending up having a few revenge affairs. <P>I filed for divorce, and he continued to go between begging me to believe he'd be "good", and punishing me more (which included, but was not limited to: yelling at me until I was in the fetal position on the floor and slapping my hand that I held out to him)... <P>About a month after the divorce was final, he told me he was beginning to realize how his actions pushed me away. He wanted me back. Trouble was, I was already involved with a new man, and was rather enjoying not being yelled at on a daily basis. I ended up marrying this man (just last month) and my ex has finally let go of the pain he caused me and the pain he caused himself and our marriage.<P>I hope your H realizes what he will lose before he loses it. I hated seeing my ex suffer like that.

Peggy,<P>I agree with WFH. I think it's very possible your husband is not hearing what he want to hear in your counseling sessions. From what you've written, he seems to want you to wear the scarlet letter and be chastised for your previous behavior, and to what point, I don't know. Certainly, he's being asked about his shortcomings in your relationship, and well he should be. Maybe's he's confusing his contributing factors as efforts to cast blame his way. For whatever reason, he does sound like he's gone over the edge, Peg. Maybe you guys need to have no contact til his temper subsides. Seems like you're getting flogged.<P>Blessings,<BR>Nell <P>------------------<BR>One faces the future with one's past.<BR>--Pearl S. Buck

Peggy, try not to worry so much about your husband keeping the divorce "current and active". My view on a civil divorce is that it is a legal technicality which clarifies legal and financial responsibilities. Even if the divorce goes through, it's not the end of the world, or even of your relationship.<P>I am much more concerned with your husband's idea to take your story to the elders of the church. What is his reason for wanting to do this? What is his Biblical justification for airing sins publically?<P>I wonder if he hasn't terribly misunderstood the Biblical principles of church discipline, which are based on Matthew 18:15-17: "And if your brother sins, go and reprove him in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. And if he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax-gatherer." (NASB)<P>Your husband seems to be jumping right into the "tell it to the church" stage, perhaps thinking that your sessions with your various counselors fulfill the requirements for the preceding stages. But he's ignoring the bit about "if he refuses to listen". Worse, he's ignoring the flip side of church discipline, which explains what to do when there <I>is</I> no such recalcitrance: "If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him." (Luke 17:3, NASB)<P>That said, I don't know whether talking to the church elders is a bad idea or not. I don't like the idea of bringing this before <I>all</I> of them, but if you haven't gone to (one of) the minister(s) yet, I think that would be worthwhile. Acknowledging your sin is always going to be a humbling experience, but since Biblical teaching favors forgiveness and reconciliation, you <I>might</I> actually get some valuable support that way.<P>On the other hand, there are a lot of churches and Christians that offer only lip service to Biblical teaching. I guess if worse came to worst, you could get drummed out of the church. But frankly, if that happened, I don't think the church would be worth much, and you would be better off without it.<BR>

Thanks for all of your responses, guys. I can't say that it makes me feel better. At one point, I thought that if I did everything my husband wants, that at some point we would be able to move forward. I don't know if anyone remembers any of my previous posts, but he has also asked me to stop watching certain t.v. shows, and cancel magazine subscriptions and keep a schedule of what I do during the day. He says I have to remain "accountable". Also, along the lines of being accountable - he is requesting that I get a male and a female accountability partner so that he can be assured that I am doing what I am supposed to be doing. I told him that I don't believe that having an accountability partner would entitle him to all the information shared with those partners. He keeps leaving messages on my cellphone of people's names and numbers of people he is suggesting for this job.<P> I agree with you guys when you say that he's not hearing what he wants to from counsellors. He has a hard time hearing things about him, he would much rather tell them to fix me. He also doesn't follow strict written rules that counsellors have set for us. He says that his fear level is just so high right now that he can't deal with that kind of thing. He keeps telling me that I should feel lucky that he hasn't kicked me out - which I agree with. I don't want him to feel trapped. He has also told me that I'm holding him "hostage" in our relationship. He also doesn't agree with counsellors when they tell him that fixing our relationship may take years of hard work - he just replies that God can fix things overnight. <P>I'm not really that concerned about this divorce motion that he has kept current. I would just hope that he could show some good faith too - to give me something to hope for. He put me in an apartment by myself because he said I need to be alone to "think about what I've done". Even though it went against everything in me, I did move out. We have kept our kids in the house, and on my days with them, I live here and he lives at another house. Then, on his days, he stays here and I go to my apartment. We thought that keeping our three boys in their current residence would be best, so it is him and I that are shuffling back and forth. I also have a handicapped son that really needs to be in a stable environment so that factored into it also.<P>What I'm wondering is if I just stay in my little apartment on my "banished" days and just renew the lease when it comes up, or ask him for some kind of plan from him for something different. I hate to think about giving up, but I'm wondering if that would be best for my husband - maybe he is just looking for God's permission to finalize the divorce by dragging me to every counsellor in town. <P>Thanks again for your kind words - I know this post talks alot about him and I don't want people to think I'm bashing my husband. I'm not, I'm just trying to understand him and I'm not blaming him for his feelings. I know forgiveness takes a long time, but I would think that after almost 8 months, we would have at least taken a baby step forward if we were ever going to do it, don't you?<P>Thanks again all,<BR>Peggy

I hate to say this and don't want to come off as standoffish BUT I am being honest - any adultress (or adulterer) man or woman deserves no respect whatsoever<P>basically you are receiving what you had coming when you decided to forever soil the bonds of trust and loyalty with your spouses - I speak from experience as a victim of an STBXW whom I suspect cheated on me - she in my opinion is lower than primordial filth<P>call me old school but I believe very strongly in faithfulness to your mate and honoring your vows and commitment<P>some of you are lucky you dont have me for a husband because, quite frankly, it sounds as if your spouses have been much too kind<P>Ace

So, then Ace, do you suggest I divorce him and let him off the hook? Do you think he is of the same opinion as you and just wants to get rid of me? I'm ok with that - after this long of turnoil between us, I just need him to be honest if he can't handle being married to "one of us" as you said.<P>Peggy

Peggy:<P>I really di - I don't mean to pass judgment on you and your reasons for your affair - I dont know how your husband treated you - I just happen to believe that such a thing is the ultimate breach of trust and loyalty - I know all the positive talk on this website about how couples can beat and survive infidelity - I just dont buy it personally - how can you recover from such a foundation shaking event - that rocks a marriage and a relationship to its core - it fractures it -<P>I belive it is truly irrepairable - especially the fact that your H had revemge affairs as you put them - what are your feelings on his actions? that was wrong of him to do? <P>I truly believe that you are probably both wasting time trying to recapture something that is gone forever - just learn from your mistakes and move on to a better life<P>Ace<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LivingInLimbo:<BR><B>So, then Ace, do you suggest I divorce him and let him off the hook? Do you think he is of the same opinion as you and just wants to get rid of me? I'm ok with that - after this long of turnoil between us, I just need him to be honest if he can't handle being married to "one of us" as you said.<P>Peggy</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

My husband didn't have any revenge affairs, I think that was a response to my post from someone else. He did have a "physical" thing with someone, but he figures since there wasn't actual sex, that he didn't cheat on me. I never got upset and asked for details or anything.<P>I am leaning toward what you just said about affairs making relationships irrepairable. I don't think my husband will ever fully trust me or be able to have sex with me without having horrible thoughts cross his mind. I don't blame him - I'm not saying that I'm begging him to stay. He is the one that says he loves me and hasn't finalized the divorce - that is what I am totally confused about.<P>AND TO TOP IT ALL OFF - he is out of town today and I just got a dozen red roses delivered from him. The card just said that he wants my heart back.<P>Now I'm totally confused - I wish I was 7 years old so someone could tell me exactly what to do and make me do it!<P>Peggy

Peggy, your <I>husband</I> is confused. Really, really confused. He's sending inconsistent messages because he is enormously conflicted. There's not a lot you can do other than Plan A to the best of your opportunity, until he gets things sorted out within himself.<P>Does he have a wise Christian friend or mentor he can go to for support, someone who can serve as a steadying influence while he goes through this time of internal crisis? I think he would benefit a lot from that.<P>Regarding the idea that an affair (or a betrayal of similar magnitude) renders a marriage irreparable, I don't believe that. Yes, it shakes a marriage to its foundations, yes it puts cracks in those foundations that will perhaps always be there. But even foundations can be repaired, and even if the whole house has to be rebuilt, it can be strong again. In fact, I believe it can be even stronger than before.<P>Peggy, do you <I>really</I> believe that walking away from your husband would make things better for him? Do you think it would take away his pain or confusion? I don't. Divorce or no divorce, he's still going to have to work through it if he doesn't want it to haunt him for the rest of his life. Whatever happens, forgiveness is the <I>only</I> path that will bring him out the other side.<P>Nothing you do can <I>make</I> your husband forgive you. The most you can do is try to make it <I>easier</I> for him to take that path.<BR>

Hi Peg,<BR>I would advise extreme caution. You've stated on previous posts that "I am not at all attracted to my H and think sometimes about OM" If your H knows this (and he probably does) then, of course, your marriage is over. BUT....be very wary of a set-up....he's in regular contact with his attorney? (What is yours saying?) Look out, Peg! Never mind that holy roller stuff....I think he's going for custody of the kids....<P>Be VERY alert to tampering in regards to your car....even get another one, if you can, it's SO easy to plant a bag of something illegal in there and then drop a dime (or is it 35 cents?, lol) I hope I'm wrong......but I smell a trap. DON'T let him spring it on you!<P>So, Peg, be careful, go for the house and kids...and, of course, a man that will make you happy for all your days..<P>Best Wishes,<BR>Xman <p>[This message has been edited by Xman (edited July 15, 2001).]

ACE...I appreciate your frankness, and you, as usual are quite eloquent in your response. You statments about how strongly you feel are indicative of much conviction and character. I have asked you before to please drop your anger about your situation. It is now affecting your responses here, and that's just not cricket. You came over here for some help, and advice, but you will receive no healing until you let go of your anger, and forgive you wife.<P>Yes, infidelity is the most major breach of trust possible, I don't think you've made any particularly new discovery there. The reasons for affairs are probably at least as diverse as the people involved in them. Human interaction is filled with much iniquity, and misunderstanding. Your opinion about the retrievability of the marriage applies only to your situation, please do not assume that it applies universally.<P>It is unrealistic to assume that you will live your married life for over 50 years without going through various periods of trust/mistrust/and the entire gamut of human failings. Comfort zones are comfortable, just not safe. The ability to change the relationship in the face of adversity is what is required to be successful. The individual's ability to forgive is the key to keeping it alive.<P>You feel betrayed. I do not blame you. You feel as if there can be no reconciliation. That is your prerogative, but do not make it your mission to make the rest of the world fall inline with your value system.<P>Whether any of us wants to reconcile is up to each of us. Your opinion is noted, and appreciated, but I get the sense that you are beating your drum here, and that is not helpful, or healthy. The things which we hold tightly bind us up.<P>I apologize for seeming to attack you, friend, I do not wish to do so. I am trying in my way to help. I too, am hurt by my XW, and the tendency towards anger and retribution is there, too. I would like to request that we all enter through the narrow gate, that's all.<P>I also apologize for taking up this thread with this...my intent is to addresss all here, not just Ace. -Mike<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 15, 2001).]

LIL. <P>You are recieving some very good advise to your post. WFH, is dead bang on in all of his responses. ACE, kinda scared even me. And I would also like to concur on the possibility that you are bieng set up. Please be careful in what's going on. <P>The thing I want to bring up is the statement you said he made about being accountable. I find this a control/fear thing. He wants to control your every move. How convienant for him to be able to drag this crap up agin 20 years from now, when a boy scoyut helps you aross the street. Yes you should be accountable in these stages. But I was always taught: Judge not, lest ye be judged. This is not for him to judge, he is not judge, jury, and executioner. This is something that you both have to work out.. TOGETHER. PERIOD. I think that going to the church elders at this point has a ring of the Salem Witch Trials. I don't feel this is right. This is a personal thing. Yes, Its a SIN to do what has happened. But that doesn't mean that you have to expose yourself to thed masses.. I FEEL that it would be good to talk to a church minister BY YURSELF. then bring your H in to discuss it. <P>In addition I agree that your husband may not be hearing the right words. Don't let him rewrite history.. It does take two to tango. <P>My .02$<BR>Tex.

Ok everyone - you all think that I may be being set up, and I agree. Before all of this hit, my husband had a private investigator, had recording devises all over the house, and monitored my e-mail for longer than I want to talk about. <P>BUT....after the initial shock of finding out your wife is messing around, isn't there a realization that kids really need their mom - even if he hates her? <P>I went through my truck today....no recording as far as I can see, but when I search the history on our computer, I find "I spy" stuff, etc.<P>This is the main thing.....I am open and honest these days. My husband has access to everything he wants,and he has told me that he will always go to any lengths to find out the information he needs. I have been up front now for seven months while he continues to hold a divorce over my head. My attorney thinks I need to take some offensive measures to make sure that things are even - she thinks that he is setting me up. He insisted that I move into an apartment, Thursday through Sunday, my attorney thinks that he is having me watched that whole time. <P>I don't want everyone to think that I have been against the counselling that he has insisted on. I have gone to every appointment, done everything the counsellors have suggested and read every book intently that they have given me. I want things to work.......but will he always be watching me now? Forever?<P>Peggy

I never meant to imply that you were being set up. He is bitter, and vindictive...attempting to control you...yes.<P>Personally...and this is just me...I think that the lawyer wanting to even things up is reprehensible. How do you get back to good that way? You don't.<P>I'd work on a little bit of a controlled speech regarding humility on my part...and how he needs to decide now whether he wants a marriage as equals, of none at all.<P>'I know that I have done things in the past that were dishonest, and hurtful. I regret that. I have told you that. Furthermore, I have assured you that I desire to change, but your controlling behavior is hurting me, and I can't love someone that continues to do that. I have done what you have asked of me, but you are still campaigning against me. That is unfortunate. I cannot be the wife you want and need if you continue to treat me as less than human.'<P>Something along those lines. His reaction to your A is revenge. You lawyer is recommending that you go there, too. How exactly does that help? There has to be a better way for you. I do know that the lawyer's mindset will hasten the D, not prevent it. Bitterness will win you nothing but lonliness.<P>I do hope that you both can ease up a bit, and get to where you can agree...and respect one another. -Mike<p>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 16, 2001).]

WFH:<P>I hear what you are saying about my anger over possible infidelity - but dropping that anger is easier said than done - it is an overwhelming thought that occupies my mind 24/7<P>As far as applying my personal beliefs to everyone's situation - that was not my intention - I did say in my initial messege that I personally believed infidelity is irrepairable but certainly did not mean to imply everyone should believe that<P>it certainly seems however that in Living in Limbo's case, reality is somewhat closer to my perspective on things since her husband does not appear amenable to reconciliation or forgivness - as a result, I believe she is just prolonging both their agonies<P>Ace<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by waiting_for_her:<BR><B>ACE...I appreciate your frankness, and you, as usual are quite eloquent in your response. You statments about how strongly you feel are indicative of much conviction and character. I have asked you before to please drop your anger about your situation. It is now affecting your responses here, and that's just not cricket. You came over here for some help, and advice, but you will receive no healing until you let go of your anger, and forgive you wife.<P>Yes, infidelity is the most major breach of trust possible, I don't think you've made any particularly new discovery there. The reasons for affairs are probably at least as diverse as the people involved in them. Human interaction is filled with much iniquity, and misunderstanding. Your opinion about the retrievability of the marriage applies only to your situation, please do not assume that it applies universally.<P>It is unrealistic to assume that you will live your married life for over 50 years without going through various periods of trust/mistrust/and the entire gamut of human failings. Comfort zones are comfortable, just not safe. The ability to change the relationship in the face of adversity is what is required to be successful. The individual's ability to forgive is the key to keeping it alive.<P>You feel betrayed. I do not blame you. You feel as if there can be no reconciliation. That is your prerogative, but do not make it your mission to make the rest of the world fall inline with your value system.<P>Whether any of us wants to reconcile is up to each of us. Your opinion is noted, and appreciated, but I get the sense that you are beating your drum here, and that is not helpful, or healthy. The things which we hold tightly bind us up.<P>I apologize for seeming to attack you, friend, I do not wish to do so. I am trying in my way to help. I too, am hurt by my XW, and the tendency towards anger and retribution is there, too. I would like to request that we all enter through the narrow gate, that's all.<P>I also apologize for taking up this thread with this...my intent is to addresss all here, not just Ace. -Mike<P>[This message has been edited by waiting_for_her (edited July 15, 2001).]</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>

In my case I was also the party at fault. My behavior and acts pushed my wife to file for divorce and to stop loving me. She is totally against any opportunities or even the thought of reconciliation. Like I said, I know she is sooooooo hurt that her heart may never heal from the wounds I created. But, as I start to let go and work on myself I also realize that my wife never really forgave me for previous mistakes. This is a discovery that hurts but more important, is reality. Today I am seeing more clearly that I don’t have the primary step for reconciliation, her forgiveness. Forgiveness is the first building block and honestly when you diminish a woman like I did hope would not be there. I know this sound depressing and self-defeating but is part of the reprogramming which will help me get up and face my life with more strength and optimism.<BR> See, the more we cling, beg, or try to stop somebody who is determined to divorce the further away we push them. The same way I now see that I need my time to work with my inner child problems I also know that my wife needs time to work with her anger and all the other emotions. And true, I wonder if she will ever give me one more chance but I am not expecting it. I am continuing with my life on the premise that it is over for good and forever. Do I love her? Yes, very much but I drove her away and killed her love for me. It is time to give her space and for me to concentrate on the outstanding Dad-Son relationship that I have with my kids. <BR> It helps to come to terms with you and let the future be in God's hands. Identify your contribution to the problem and work on improving yourself for when you find love again. Is hard, I know. The emotional rollercoaster is no fun either but you have to try and move on. Read a lot, pray a lot, it really helps. Good luck and God bless.<BR>

Ace...I hear you...I do. All of it. Its not like I'm just lying down, letting it kick me. I do understand...There is only the narrowest of lines separating the way you fell, and the way I am trying to act...its rough.<P>BTW....what about those beers? We never did talk any more about that...check out my thread...come on over, the water's fine. -Mike