Tonight, my husband said to me that I was a "worthless piece of sh_t" and a "sl_t" because I refused to make a phone call to his sister to ask about his mother's condition. We recently had an argument because he never tells me what is going on with his family whenever he speaks to them. I hear his side of the conversation only and if I ask questions, he gets this exasperated tone in his voice and relates very little. I'm usually afraid to ask any more because he is obviously getting upset with me so I just drop it. Anyway, this time, he said he wasn't going to call his sister and that I had to. The reason for the call was to find out some bad news about his mother's health so I felt that he should be the one to hear it first so I said I didn't think it was my place. He refuses to share information with me about any of his telephone conversations. This type of thing has been going on for the last 4 years. He doesn't usually apologize for saying these mean and hurtful things. I read somewhere that God does not require that I suffer abuse or mental anquish from a mate and I've had about all I can take. It seems that I can do nothing right in his eyes and he berates me for everything I do. I believe I have begun to hate him and see no way to stay in this marriage. Do you think I would be wrong to want him to leave?

Hi, and welcome to Marriage Builders. I see you have a few posts, so I assume you've read the message of General Welcome? If not, let me know, and I will get it for you.<P>No, you shouldn't have to suffer abuse ever, at all. There has been lots of talk on the website about what God allows, and it seems, from all I've read that the only thing that most (not all) can agree upon is there are grounds for divorce if one spouse has been unfaithful. Then, if that spouse initiates divorce, the faithful spouse can leave the marriage. But even then, there have been some disputes about it. Some will say that even in the case of abuse you must work on the marriage. Now, all will agree that you can, and should, separate yourself from an abusive spouse. <P>And yes, verbal abuse it real, and you are suffering at the hands (or mouth) of it.<P>I do have a few questions for you: Has your H always been this way? Why would he call you a slut? Did that come out of left field? Does he suspect you're having an affair? Is there infidelity on either side?<P>This should help to open up your situation for discussion.

I don't know if I've ever read the "General Welcome" or not. I might have missed it. As far as your questions about whether he's always been this way or not, I would have to say yes but to a much lesser degree than what I'm seeing lately. He just has a foul mouth to begin with and it really embarasses me when he talks that way. He used to at least attempt to talk with me without resorting to all of this name-calling and so on. I have not had an affair but I know that he's deeply angry with me because of my lack of interest in sex. In part, this is a physical problem having to do with aging, hormones, etc., but I think it's also because I'm so angry at him for treating me the way he does. In his mind, if I'm not having sex with him, I'm having it with someone else! That is totally rediculous as my every waking moment is fully accounted for. The UPS man came the other day and when he got home, he wanted to know who the hell had been here, was it my new boyfriend, etc., etc. He checks the driveway for tire-tracks, listens in on all my phone conversations, searches my computer on a regular basis, and if a male person calls on the phone and asks for me, he is certain that it is my lover, not the phone company wanting me to change long distance carriers. I'm not allowed to have friends, even female, because "they are all just a bunch of whores who will use you and get you into trouble". I don't trust him because he lies to me all the time. When I catch him in a lie and confront him, he turns it all around, denies it in the face of solid proof and tries to make it look like I'm the one who did something wrong. I have tried everything I can think of to make him happy but it's not working and I'm just becoming more and more miserable. There's a voice inside telling me that this is all wrong and that I should have never allowed him to take over my life so completely. I've tried to forgive him over and over again but I don't think I can do it anymore.

<BR>Wow. We can't both possibly be married to the same guy, can we? There is SO MUCH similarity in the verbal abuse and control you describe to what I lived with and finally left just last year.<P>If you want, you can use the 'search' function at the top right of the page and find the posts I've written since I first found this place and started to try and make things work. In my case, counseling didn't work as he would not make the effort to stop the emotional abuse.<P>The names, the paranoid suspicion, the alienation from friends ... my heart goes out to you as someone who has been there 110%. Do you think he would be willing to try counseling if he knew how unhappy you are?

{{{{{{{{cc}}}}}}}}}<P>Listen to your inner voice. When you think about forgiveness, consider putting yourself at the top of your list. You've tolerated some things that are intolerable. <P>Some of the best advice I've received via MB was a lesson about burdens. Think about what your burdens are. Your initial post has a good example. Calling your SIL. Is that your responsibility? Or are you carrying someone else's baggage when you make that call? Setting down a bunch of luggage that isn't yours is an important baby step in setting boundaries. Take care of yourself.

{{{{{ CC }}}}}<P>Wow...that's a bit much. I do have do disagree most vehemently with you, however.....you are <B>ABSOLUTELY 100% WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!</B> I can't believe that you'd say such a thing!! It boggles my mind that you could be so utterly incorrect...that dress does so flatter you! I was reminded of Jackie O in the days of Camelot! Yes, there was less of you in it, but WOW Patricia! I am thoroughly impressed.<P>I do have to confess...I secretly like sewing, and crocheting, too...although I don't do much...a little hand sewing of holes, etc. My Grandmother crocheted, and sewed, and she watched me a lot when I ws young. I remember her telling me when I was 5 years old...you will make someone a wonderful wife someday! (No therapy dollars there at all!)<P>I also like the photography of the dolls...excellent! You have a wonderful looking family...they look happy...not sure about H....especially after you told me about his anger management issues. I'd say that he was the only one expecting you to stay.<P>Patricia, I can see that you are an active person, with much to offer. Your sense of beauty, and dedication to what can be difficult work is highly laudable. Your resume tells me you can do most anything you want to do, and your face shows the depth of your character well. your web page is great, and I am terribly sorry for your pain. You have a lovely visage, and your children/grandchildren must cherish you like a rare gem. God has blessed you greatly, and you are an important part of His plan. I have no doubt that you have been an excellent daughter, friend, wife, mother, and grandmother.<P>All of that means little when the one person you want, no...need to affirm you chooses instead to make you feel bad. There is little I can do to change that. I can tell you, however that your H is probably turning his internal anger on you because you are a convenient repository for him. The danger to him is minimal...he assumes that you will take it. I assume that you will not (any longer). I think that you would be wise not to provoke him, I'd hate to see you hurt more...especially physically. If he ever touches you in anger, leave immediately!<P>I used to think that angry words were not chosen carefully. Since my own personal troubles began, and even more so since my D, I have been forced to take a really hard look at a lot of things. Anger and ego included. Angry words are more carefully chosen that I had thought. When I read a newcomer's post, or one from someone here that I do not know, I check the profile on that person. (They are usually mostly blank.) Your webpages tell me that you have a great deal of worth to everyone around you...it is obvious to me anyway. I suspect that you spend a great deal of time questioning, and reaffirming that, which is good, but not if you obsess about it. That is what I feel he is telling you when he says you are worthless. (He may also be saying that that is how he feeels about himself...what is his current work status? Is he NOT doing what he wants/what satisfies him?) The jealousy thing, plus that ...yes, it is because of the sex thing....that much he is very up front about.<P>You seem to be at that point where you are not willing to try to salvage the marriage...is that correct? I would not want to tell you any thoughts about that if I thought you did not want to reconcile, but if you do...he can change...you'd be surprised at what a motivated person can accomplish. We all have good and evil in us, it is what makes us 'interesting' at its best. Its waht makes us pathetic, and twisted at its worst.<P>Again...to recap:<BR> I think you are a lovely, talented, and LOVED woman.<BR> Your H is in inner turmoil...his problem, should not have to be yours.<BR> You can make things better for you, with, or without him.<BR> Your Dad looks like he's a real spark plug! Probably just too stubborn to lay down, and give up...how about you?<P>GOD BLESS YOU PATRICIA....YOU STAY STRONG! -Mike

I woke up on the couch this morning after he threw my pillows out here and told me he no longer wanted me in his bed. Then, at 4 am, he came out and demanded to know where his money went this week. He said he figured that I owed him about $140.00 and he wanted his money. I got up and got out the check book and receipts and gave him a detailed account of every penny just as I have done for the last year when he started obcessing over not having enough money to do anything he wants to do. I work too and make significantly less than he does, however, it all goes into the household. I don't spend money on myself or frivolous things. People tell me that they don't know how I manage money so well but he has no concept of how much it costs to live these days. Unfortunately, there is only about $15.00 left of the money he gave me and now he's really upset even though I showed him that it all went for bills and groceries. I assume that he hoped to take this $140.00 and get away from me somehow as he has done this before. About a month ago, there was $250.00 extra in my purse which he took and disappeared for the weekend with my brother after picking a fight with me. (that fight was about sex and he told me in no uncertain terms that if I wasn't going to have sex with him, ((it had been two weeks))he would damn sure find someone who would) That was another lovely weekend for me since I had no idea where he was or what he was doing with that $250.00) My brother said they went up north camping so I don't believe he carried through on his threat to find someone else to have sex with. His issues are way beyond me anymore. I can see what some of them are and I've tried to encourage him to be thankful for what we have. We make less than $26,000 a year combined but I feel we are much more fortunate than so many others. He feels that life has handed him a raw deal, that he never gets anything he wants, that everyone is always trying to hurt him in some way or another and he takes it ALL out on me! I'm very angry right now and I don't think I do want to save this marriage. I'm tired and don't have the energy to keep up with his stuff anymore. I start a new job on Monday as tech support for a local internet company. It doesn't pay much more than what I'm making now but it's something I want to do. He already hates it. Says I spend too much time on the computer as it is, that I only want this job so I can have a chance to meet other men, etc. It's just sickening! He sabotaged my previous job as a legal secretary with his jealous temper tantrums and I don't want to be embarrassed by this kind of behaviour again. I don't want to come home at night and listen to him ask me who I slept with at work that day! <BR> Anyway, after he went back to bed, I came here to find that some lovely people have extended their hands to mine and I started bawling my head off. I am not sure just why but I think it has something to do with being so thankful that there really is tenderness and understanding out there and I'm just not used to getting much of it. I'm so grateful to all of you. I gotta go find more tissues. Will check back later.

Check out this definition:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002097.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002097.html</A>

<BR>My goodness CC, the more you write the more he sounds like my STBX.<P>Your marriage does not have to be doomed! My husband and I tried to salvage our marriage last summer and it almost worked ... we were closer than we had ever been in our seven years. However, the abuse came back, and I had made my stand to accept NO MORE and to insist on counseling. He went to a couple anger management classes but stopped. He swore he'd never be physicallly abusive again and broke that promise. He found reason after reason to blame me for every little problem we had and accuse me of every action no matter how ridiculous.<P>My advice would have to be insist on marriage counseling. You also should seek personal counseling for yourself. My STBX had me feeling that I 'deserved' his abuse and I was totally brainwashed. You cannot change him. He has to 1.) admit a problem, and 2.) want to change. You can change how you respond to the abuse, and I hope you will find a good counselor to help.<P>Take care. I am continually amazed by the depths my STBX will sink to in order to hurt me.

I think we need to differentiate between verbal abuse that is sometimes "let loose" in moments of anger, and patterns of abuse that virtually define a relationship.<P>In <I>your</I> case, coffeecake, the description you have provided of your husband's behavior is a textbook case of the abusive personality. Dealing with this situation is not as simple as "forgiving" him over and over. Your husband needs help, and not just for "anger management". People with abusive personalities tend to have rather deep-seated issues, not just a lack of skill in handling their emotions and their relationships.<BR>

Thank you, Gnome. <P>This thread upsets me and I want to jump in, rescue cc, and RUN to the nearest therapist, and let them explain to cc how she is being abused.<P>It took me so long to realize that not everyone gets their hands slapped by their H, or spends time cowering(sp?) in corners of rooms, or having their hair pulled, or is called names at the top of their H's lungs (sometimes in public, no less)... YEARS... it took YEARS... and I am just now coming to terms with it. My ex H was an abuser. I was abused.<P>This is serious business.<P>TLC, with all due respect, she can "insist" on marriage counseling, but you know as well as I do that if she "insists" he won't go, and if she does happen to show up, the minute she brings any of this up, he'll bolt. My ex-H did. He made it through the session, which was surprising, and then never came back. And guess who got in trouble for opening her big mouth? And who got blamed for "not understanding"... that's right, me.<P>CC, be careful... very careful. Consider your options... and FIND A COUNSELOR who believes in marriage. <P>Best wishes, and TAKE CARE!!<p>[This message has been edited by Nyneve (edited July 14, 2001).]

<BR>CC,<P>I have to ask this...does he drink? or do drugs?<BR>What is your past like?<P>And yes, you could call his sister and ask about YOUR MOTHER IN LAW!!! You have a different relationship to her, so you can call and talk to them..I think thats one thing that happens in marriages w/ in-laws..everyone thinks it's the "childs" responsibility to keep in touch w/ thier parents..when in reality..you should have your own relationship w/ these people..seperate from your h's..<BR>I used to call my mother in law to talk to her..just to say hello and see how she was doing..and my sisters in laws..<BR>I quit doing that when I found out they had come into town..<BR>(3 1/2 to 4 hour drive) was in town for two weeks and DIDN'T<BR>CALL..Not see me, not to see their grandkids..nothing..and you know why she didn't call..because she thought HER SON WASN'T HERE, she thought HE was out of town working..but he was actually in town one of the weekends she was in town..and the thing that hurt the most..was thats what she told me when I'd asked her WHY she hadn't called..because she didn't think her son was here..whats that make the rest of us??? Chopped Liver?? My oldest daughter heard that..and she was devasted..that her granny was in town for two weeks and didn't even want to see her, because her dad wasn't here..so now..she doesn't care if she goes up to see her granny anymore or not..and that hurts me because I have always tried to work on a relationship w/ his family..but I guess because I didn't want to move up there and follow his parents around and actually have a life of our own..I'm not family material..I actually want friends outside of the family...his mom and dad never did anything with ppl outside the family..they didn't have friends outside of the family unit..except for their kids friends who came over..and whose kids eventually married into the family..his brother had married this one lady who was actually very nice..she was from another state..and when her mom got sick and needed her there they moved there, but his mom and dad made him feel guilty for leaving them..and he eventually left his wife and moved back, my sister-in-law had a child as a teenager, and she had moved to get a job elsewhere, and had left her daughter w/ her parents till she had gotten her first couple checks and got a nice place to live..when came back and got her daughter her dad got deathly "ill" because she was taking his baby..and they laid that on her..and her mom would call all the time saying her dad is sick, he misses so and so sooooo much..so she quit her job and moved back in w/ them..then when she got married..and was moving out...every time she tried to take her daughter out of the house to move out..daddy got sick..so she left her daughter w/ them..and she moved next door so she could be there for her..and she gave them money for the daughter..to live there so daddy wouldn't have to work..and could keep drinking..<P>Hmmm, you know..as I look back at all these things..I wonder..why the hell have I stayed this long??? they are all manipulative ppl..and why do I care if they are happy with my choices..

((((((((((coffeecake))))))))))<P>You have gotten very good responses! <P>I wanted to hop in here and tell you that you are NOT ALONE! There are "verbal abuse survivors" out here too! In the end, saving my marriage was not worth the daily damage done by hateful, hurtfull, degrading words. Saving my sanity and spirit was!<P>Nobody and I mean NOBODY deserves to be treated the way you are by your husband!!!<P>You are in my thoughts and prayers!!!<P>((((((CC))))))<P>Ragamuffin<P>P.S. I want to add you are a very talented woman with alot going for her! I only could dream to sew like you do!<p>[This message has been edited by Ragamuffin (edited July 14, 2001).]

I am convinced that emotional and verbal abuse hurt just as bad as physcial abuse can. I know that my husband and I both participate in this occasionally. <P>CC....I was starting to believe half of the horrible comments and names that I was being called in anger. I have an autistic son and I belong to a support group that has helped me in my general family life as well as that situation, but a woman there told me something I never forgot. She said that sometimes when people hold distorted mirrors in front of you long enough - you start believing the distortion. You have to have a dependable mirror to look at. I was believing that I was a horrible wife, a bad mom,, a bad friend a lazy slob, a worthless piece of............well, you know.<P>Words hurt as bad as fists sometimes.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Words hurt as bad as fists sometimes.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And the scars are deeper, and tend to last longer..

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LivingInLimbo:<BR><B>I am convinced that emotional and verbal abuse hurt just as bad as physcial abuse can.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think non-physical abuse is worse.<P>The physical abuse made me angry, resentful, fearful, distrusting, ... mostly just angry. How DARE he.<P>But the words he called me, what he said about me (and friends, and family) and my way of doing things, the control and manipulation ... left me believing I was crazy, made me feel pathetic, worthless, cheap, undeserving of better, trapped, stupid, inadequate ... barely human.<P>To this day I can hardly accept a compliment. Smart? No I'm not. He said so. Nice? No I'm not. He said so. Competent? No I'm not. He said so.<P>It is hard for me to say that I'm a strong, beautiful, intelligent woman and MEAN IT. My psychologist tries, but I end up with a nervous 'yeah right' giggle coming out at the end.

It's been a long day but I finally made it back here and again, the tears are coming as I read how thoughtful and supportive everyone is being here. I'm finding it amazing that I can sit here and listen to him call me every name in the book, berate me on every level, and stay calm and matter-of-fact but as soon as somebody says something nice to me, I fall apart and cry like a baby. I'm not normally a cryer and will do anything to avoid it but you guys are getting to me with the concern and love you are showing me and I can't thank you enough. My husband would never agree to counseling and states that all those in the counseling profession are "money-hungry peeping Toms who have nothing better to do than sit around and tell other people how to run their lives." I was in counseling for a long time when my previous marriage ended but I didn't have to pay for it. I couldn't pay for it now so it'll have to be whatever support I can find online I guess. I found this and it is exactly the situation I have. <A HREF="http://abuse101.com/profile.html" TARGET=_blank>http://abuse101.com/profile.html</A> Now, I just need to know what to do about it.

to this day I can hardly accept a compliment. Smart? No I'm not. He said so. Nice? No I'm not. He said so. Competent? No I'm not. He said so.<P>It is hard for me to say that I'm a strong, beautiful, intelligent woman and MEAN IT. My psychologist tries, but I end up with a nervous 'yeah right' giggle coming out at the end. [/B][/QUOTE]<P>Oh boy does this sound familiar...<P>T-L-C, you are a very intellegent, warm, funny, loving, caring, beautiful woman..and you know how I know this???<BR>(no I've never met you) because as the Psalmist says in Psalm 139..<P>I will praise thee, for I am fearfully and wondefully made: marvellous are they works; and that my soul knoweth right well..<P>read the entire Psalm there it's wonderful <P>

coffeecake-<P>I didn't have the money either - I went to the community mental health office for help. There is free and low-cost or income-based counseling available out there. You won't always get a person that you can really talk to the first or second time around - I went through a lot of counselors before I found my current psychologist - I had one in particular who's suggestion always seemed to be 'take a bubble bath' and another who I had to tell my whole background to EVERY WEEK. Keep looking and you'll find the right person to talk to. My current one, I found through my Sunday School teacher.<P>The website you posted - wow - I didn't read all of it yet but THAT'S HIM - my STBX all the way. <P>My biggest regret? Staying so long my kids thought it was okay to treat me the way HE did. The cycle must not repeat itself.<P>I'm in Michigan too. Legal Aid of Central Michigan has been invaluable to me. Give them a call at 800-968-0044 and see if they can help.<P>I'm not saying you shouldn't work on the marriage - but it takes two. If he won't work on it, you don't have to live with the abuse.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by T-L-C (edited July 14, 2001).]

cc, thanks for the website. Wow, sounds just like my H,too. He left me for the OW. Eventually she'll become the target of his verbal abuse. It only took about 6 months for my H to begin the switch from his XW to me 19 years ago. <P>The longer I'm away from him, even though it wasn't my choice, the more unreal it seems that I tolerated the treatment I did from him. The Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde and the Good wife/Bad wife dichotomies fit exactly. He was devastated when I got diagnosed with breast cancer 3 years ago and that's when the A really began. I think it felt safer to be with a girl less than 1/2 his age than with someone who might die and leave him.<P>This whole experience has been a process of learning about myself and facing the TRUTH.