I really feel crazy writing this, especially after everything I've said recently. I was on my way to a breast cancer brunch with some friends from my cancer support group who I haven't seen or talked to in months. Just as I arrived, my cell phone rang and it was my H. He begged me not to hang up (I have a restraining order) and told me he'd heard that the 14 yr. old son of a former employee was beaten by white supremacists. I don't know if this is true, I stopped by her house but no one was home. <P>He went on to tell me that he loves me and wants us to reconcile. We talked for hours, but it was extremely stressful. He swung from tears and begging me to run away to an island with him to prove I loved him to yelling at me and threatening to file a discovery motion tomorrow that would force me to sell everything and give him 1/2. By the end of the conversation, he was unable to stop yelling and I told him, goodbye, I love you, and I hope you get some kind of help so that we can talk again.<P>He drank several beers during the conversation so alcohol could be the simple explanation. But it seems like there's more going on. His speech is pressured, he's unable to stop talking, he flies into rages about various people he thinks are f'ing me over. He claimed to be sober at the start of the conversation, though he was pretty labile then too, and he continues to insist that he's not using drugs. Something is very wrong with him. Alcohol? drugs? maybe bipolar? Maybe all three?<P>He's sure I'm having an affair with our maintenance man and now he's jealous. During the conversation, we got disconnected. When he called me back, he said the OW had been on the line when he was shouting at me that he loved me and wanted me to run away to an island with him. She interrupted him saying, "[H] it's me [OW]." His comment about it was, "that was pretty final." Oh well. He asked if he could come over here without telling either of our lawyers and I said, "No," which to him means I don't love him. I asked him again to get counseling and/or go to AA or talk to his psychologist friend in recovery.<P>So, now what? Am I crazy for talking to him? Should I talk to him again? Should I continue with the divorce as is for now? Should I ask for certain conditions? drug treatment? AA? individual counseling? marital counseling? mediation? before talking to him again? I really need help with this.

LetsTry,<P>I am so glad I'm here, and so are you. I hate to say this, honey, but you KNOW what you should do. It's just that your heart wants SO MUCH to believe that THIS time he really means it, and THIS time he'll follow through, and THIS time it will work out... But the very first thing that jumps out at me is that you have a restraining order against him, and he is not respecting that! I am SO SORRY to have to say this out loud, but if he was really getting it together and was really going to follow through this time, he would respect the restraining order. <P>This sucks, and you are my friend, so I hate to have to say this to you when I know that your heart wants him to love you as much as you love him. Sitting here, fairly objectively and not emotionally all in the middle of it, I can see that most likely his OW wants to break up with him or some other icky thing is happening in his life. Something is going on that he is having to actually pay the consequence for the choices he has made, and he is squirming because of it. He doesn't want to. He wants you to "rescue" him again as you have done so many times. <P>The fact that he did not respect the restraining order speaks VOLUMES. The fact that he ended up yelling at you speaks more VOLUMES. The fact that he was drinking during the call and even told you about it speaks HUGE VOLUMES. Do you want me to say it out loud? Do NOT talk to him again. Do not change anything about the divorce for now...just let it move along at it's own speed. If he is serious about reconciling, let HIM prove it to you, don't give him excuses or conditions or anything. Seriously, if he really wanted to turn his life around, he knows to go to AA, to get individual counseling, to get marital counseling, to go to drug treatment, etc. He KNOWS!! And if he chooses not to do those things, then he is telling you that he is not really choosing you. Okay?<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{LetsTry}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}I'm sorry. I wish it was a fairytale ending, but it isn't. Please do not talk to him again.<P>CJ <P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.<p>[This message has been edited by FaithfulWife (edited July 15, 2001).]

Thanks CJ, That's just what I needed to hear. That's why I said I felt crazy. This is my "disease." At least I'm more aware of it now and don't just react as I used to. That's some progress, even if I still need to reach out to others to tell me what to do. I think I'll even print out your answer just to remind myself when/if I start to weaken. Thanks so much.

{{{{{LetSTry}}}}}<P>My first thought was, "Well, how's he expect her to get her treatment and medical care on some island?"<P><<<B>His speech is pressured, he's unable to stop talking, he flies into rages about various people he thinks are f'ing me over. He claimed to be sober at the start of the conversation, though he was pretty labile then too, and he continues to insist that he's not using drugs. Something is very wrong with him. Alcohol? drugs? maybe bipolar? Maybe all three?</B>>><P>Yeah, he's whacked all right. He won't get a diagnosis until he's off the booze and dope most likely. But, the pressured speech, emotional lability, distorted thinking, and substance abuse all play a part in the bipolar picture. It sounds like he's right where you want him (hitting bottom) if you want him to clean up his act and come back home. But, I wonder if you've passed that point of no return? <P>I'm also worried about the influence his contacts has on your healing process. Mind and body go hand-in-hand. To compromise your health with his negative presence is sure to guarantee a medical crisis on your part. It's too risky. I feel he needs to honor the restraining order or suffer the consequences. You would be doing him a favor really, and yourself. I think it's time for you, and most of us here, to forge ahead into a new life, with new promises, and renewed hope. <P>Blessings,<BR>Nell <P>------------------<BR>One faces the future with one's past.<BR>--Pearl S. Buck

Nell, Thanks for your advice too. I feel like he'd really have to change a lot before I could get involved with him again, even though I still love him. I've separated enough that I don't feel desperate for him like I did when he wanted to come home the last time. I just feel so bad for him.<P>He gave me his lawyer's name and asked me to call her. It sounds like she has some influence on him. Yes,here I go thinking about controlling again, I know. I guess I want to talk to a sane person about him and find out what parts of what he told me are true. Of course she may only be going on what he tells her. <P>I assume my lawyer would frown on me calling her, but he's telling me that his lawyer told me she called my lawyer 37 times last week and never got a call back. My lawyer said his lawyer was out of town last week. He said his lawyer said that in 12 divorces in which she's gone up against my lawyer, my lawyer dragged everything out so her client had to pay more and that she refused the first settlement and settled in the end for less than the original offer.

LetSTry,<P>He's handing you a smoke screen. Don't listen to him. And I don't think it would be appropriate for you to call HIS lawyer. That's what your lawyer is supposed to do. Have you filed? Has he been served? I would let the process take its course the way it should. <P>How does "dragging it out" cost more money? If my lawyer takes 2 hours to file a petition at the cost of $100/hr, how would it cost more if he files next week? Remember the controlling, manipulative nature of addicts. He will distort reality for you like it is for him. Don't fall for it. Just maintain your boundaries, and stand strong!<P>Nell <P>------------------<BR>One faces the future with one's past.<BR>--Pearl S. Buck

Hi LetsTry,<P>Looks to me like you've gotten some very sound advice. My H is messed up like your H, but the bottom line is we cannot have a relationship with someone who is in that condition. Until THEY decide to take back control of their lives, it just cannot happen. And, we cannot, force, beg, or bargain with them to make them assume the responsibility. And, more importantly, to follow through. Believe me, I know how hard it is to turn your back on him when he is so needy.<P>The way I am trying to look at my situation is that H is poisoning my life. Inviting him back into my life, in his present condition, would not be that much different than eating rat poison. No pun intended! <P>You know there are stories all over the place where two people get divorced, then get back together. If our H's love us as much as they claim to, then they will do whatever it takes to get their lives under control so that they can have a relationship with us. I'm not holding my breath that that will ever happen. But, you and I deserve much, much better!

Well, whatever illusions I was harboring yesterday are gone today. My H AND the OW called my co-worker all night long threatening to kill her and her husband since he's the one who found their drugs. So much for love and reconciliation.<P>Last night I talked to maintenance man (the one with whom I'm supposed to be having the affair) and this morning his wife called. She said she never spoke with my H - he had told me she told him she was filing for divorce because he told her he loved me. Never happened. She and I are friends and I'm not even attracted to her husband (so I don't have to test my strength in that area).<P>Yes, Sidney, he's poison for me right now. <P>Nell, I want to tell his lawyer the truth, not what he's telling her. She thinks he's such a "nice guy."

<<<B>Nell, I want to tell his lawyer the truth, not what he's telling her. She thinks he's such a "nice guy."</B>>><P>Oh, I know it! They are such great actors, and those smoke screens are quite portable.<P>*Poof*<BR>Nell

At the risk of being told I need to be committed, here's the latest. My H called this morning being very nice. Not drunk, yet. He called ostensibly to get the number for our medical insurance. He told me he's moving to the city, 50 miles from here, where his parents live to take care of them since his sister has abandoned them (his sister used to check on them daily until my FIL came to her house and yelled at her for siding with me against her brother - we happen to be on the same "side," she didn't choose me). <P>He told me again that he's alone (without OW) but he's still friends with OW. I told him he needed to be sober and really done with OW before I'd consider any involvement with him.<P>When I got to work, I heard that the OW's MIL, who works for me, had said that the OW, her sister, and her daughter were staying with my H this week at the beach.<P>I had an Al-Anon meeting at my house tonight because the church basement where we usually meet is being used for vacation bible school. In the middle of the meeting, my H called again. He sounded at least a little drunk. I asked him about what I'd heard about the OW and he told me she was staying with her mother and even gave me a local phone number, but it's not her mother's phone number, which is unlisted but I got it through other sources. <P>He was nice again. He told me I'd probably be angry because he's been claiming to be disabled and now he's planning to get surgery on his leg (an old unhealed injury) that will put him out of commission about 8 months. I told him I had no problem with that but suggested he stop drinking and smoking first since it seemed that drinking and smoking might have prevented healing in the previous 6 or 7 surgeries. He said he was thinking about getting sober and asked if he could come see me if he's sober.<P>Everyone tells me I shouldn't speak to him and I keep doing it. It's the same as in the beginning of his A. I'd feel better after I talked to him and then he'd disappear for days and I'd be crushed and this cycle just repeated over and over. I've been doing much better lately and don't want to end up back where I was before.<P>I have an appointment with Steve Harley in the morning and hopefully he'll give me some good advice (that I can follow).

Dear LeTStry,<P>In my opinion your H is trying to manipulate you. I think CJ is right - if he is really interested in reconciliation, let him show you by his actions. <P>And I don't know about you, but as much as I love my STBXH, I am in a better emotional place when I don't have contact with him very often. I always get upset after I have seen him and that dejected feeling gets more intense. I swear ... it is like seeing him makes me lose my sense of logic and I become this bag of raw emotions. And this is after over a year of seperation. <P>One thing I wondered about is if you have the same "affliction" that I do. I call it the "Mothering Gene". My husband is very messed up and in alot of pain, and I keep thinking it is my job to try to help him through it. Do you know what I mean? I want to "kiss the booboo and make it better" just like I do the kids. I want to think he "needs me". I think alot of women want to "mother" the men they love just a little. And the more messed up they are, the harder it is to walk away. Even when that is the best thing to do for both you and him. And it sounds like your H is all over the place. You don't know from one day to the next if which H you will get...the nice one or the addicted one. Man, it must be hard on you to try to maintain an even emtional state through all that.<P>You take care and hang in there with what you believe is right. ((((((((((hugs))))))))))<P>Lisa<P>------------------<BR>Character is determined by what you do when no one is watching.

Lisa, yes, I share your affliction. I hate the whining when he gets really pitiful and talks about feeling suicidal or being homeless because I feel manipulated. But when he starts talking about how he's sorry for what he's done and how he's going to try to make things better, I just want to jump in and help him. <P>I have been doing amazingly better without him. I say "amazingly" because in the beginning I wasn't sure I could even survive this. I'm still sad a lot, but I'm functioning. That's better than I've been for the last year of verbal abuse and the A. So why do I let him have so much power over me? <P>I know I have to just keep moving forward, detach with love, and hope he can find his own way to some kind of sanity and serenity. Maybe then there's a chance for us. Right now he's a drowning man looking for anything to grab onto. I've always been there for him in the past no matter how badly he's treated me and he can't bear to be alone. I don't know what's going on between him and OW, but she doesn't seem to be meeting his needs very well (maybe she's getting sick of his crazy behavior too).<P>Does that mean I shouldn't talk to him at all? until he meets certain conditions (clean and sober, no OW)? or what?

Gosh, your husband sounds like a kid, especially when he's soused. As long as you can recognize his manipulation and can hold tight onto your boundaries, maybe talking to him when he's sober would be OK. Pay attention to acceptable behavior. Don't give any of your attention to unacceptable behavior.<P>My husband has not lifted one phone receiver to speak to me in 2 months. Prior to that, one day I would be accused of being an awful *****, the next day he would be telling me he'll "always love" me, and how he wants us to be friends. I don't think so. He's poison to me the way he's been. He did the gotta-get-a-divorce tap dance, but didn't file. So, I filed. Now he's fighting over settlement tooth and nail through his lawyer. And you know what, if he came to me truly a changed, sober man in heart and spirit, I would take him back in a heartbeat. There's nothing I can't forgive, and I don't know if that's really a good thing or not.<P>The reality of it is, I think my marriage is over.<P>Nell

Lisa, You're right. My H is manipulating me. He's dragging everyone he can into his drama to avoid dealing with reality. Last night was horrible. My H called all night telling me he's killing himself today. He called a coworker and threatened to kill her H (who is working out of town) all night. He called our maintenance man and accused him of being my new boyfriend. Then he asked him to meet him about 6:30 a.m. <P>My H called me and said he was on his way to Las Vegas to die. I asked if he was taking the OW with him (actually hoping she might be there to prevent him from killing himself). He said no but maintenance man was. I talked to MM and he asked me to meet them. I did. H was not driving to Las Vegas, but sitting in his truck in a parking lot drinking and screaming provocative remarks at passers-by. He took off after about 20 minutes thinking the cops were after him. H was stopped twice last night and then taken to the local mental health clinic to be evaluated about an hour ago. He was just released because he called and said "3 strikes your out," to show me he's winning his little game. I'm not playing anymore. <P>Nell, You described my situation exactly. And, like you, I'd still probably take him back in a minute if he got clean and sober again and was really willing to get honest with himself this time.

Hey LetSTry ~<P>Don't you have a restraining order on this man? <P>It seems to me that the first thing you can do for BOTH of you is to use it, and keep it.<P>All this talking and showing up to meet him and stuff is simply showing him that you don't say what you mean and mean what you say.<P>Besides, you'll feel better not being in the middle of his mess. Right now you are enabling his hysteronics, don't ya think? <P>You are right, he's playing a game and you are playing right along with him!<P>((((((((hugs)))))))<P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

BR, You're absolutely right. An AA member, former friend of my H, met me at the lake where my H was pulling his hystrionics and talked me down. He suggested I call the sheriffs, which I did, and then go home, which I also did. Suicide is one card my H had never played with me before and I was just too scared not to respond last night. But now that he's thrown it all in my face, I'll be able to ignore it the next time.

LetSTry,<P><BR>One thing Tony use to do in the middle of our fights when he could see he was not pushing any of my buttons was to threaten suicide. I got so sick of it that one night I turned around and said do it. But if you think for one minute I will feel guilty you are dead wrong. I pointed out to Tony that he had a choice and if he choose to kill himself that was not my problem. I know it sounds like I was bing a major bi&^% but he was trying very hard to manipulate me.<P>Funny thing is he does not try it anymore. It is like raising a small child. Actually I know children who are better behavied. I know Tony does not drink and do drugs so it is different but you have to let your H hit bottom and pick himself up. You can not be dragged into this anymore. And the longer you allow this to happen the longer your employees will suffer as well. Stop the contact. When a line/boundry is drawn you have to follow through with what you gave as a condition. If you do not than they know they can continually manipulate you. <P>Try and stay strong. Maybe next time you feel the need to talk to him call someone else instead. Or just not answer the phone anymore. Let the answering machine pick up. I screen my calls all the time.

Pahakissa1, Thanks for the advice and support. I have caller ID so I can screen my calls. The phone woke me up last night and I answered without thinking. It was my H. He was slightly more sober and apologized for his behavior. I told him I can't talk to him while he continues to drink because it hurts me too much. He's talking about getting sober but afraid of going through withdrawals and being a "newcomer" in AA again. Oh well, we'll see what happens.<P>Meanwhile, I'll continue my Al-Anon meetings and work on boundary setting. That is something I really know nothing about.