<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Except in cases of things like extreme abuse, I don't think there really is any such thing as a "bad" or a "good" marriage. That implies that if you replaced one of the partners, the new relationship would somehow magically be different.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That's like saying that leaving aside potentially-deadly safety issues, there are no bad and good cars. I'll give you the choice of a rusty '68 Opel Kadett or a new Lexus is300. Get my point? <P>Partners can be mundane, apathetic and disgruntled without there being any abuse. Or they can be lively, enthusiastic and grateful, and not dependent on the other's mood. Isn't one marriage better than another? <P>There may be "problems" with one partner, or both. Unless they have strong moral centers or are simply too fearful, either or both may wind up in affair(s).<P>The smile on your face, the chore taken on unbidden, the thoughfulness of a gift ... <I>any</I> can be a <I>moral choice</I>.

The closer I get to my divorce, I have to think back and look at the big picture. I here everyone(including myself) crying about being cheated on or being unhappy enough to cheat. However, from my own personal experience I have to ask the question do any of us really marry the right person from the beginning? Do we choose the person that God has in mind for us? I see people talking about the good 'ol days but were they really all that good? Women and men alike were still cheating. It was just unheard of in earlier times to file for a divorce. I feel that we don't make good choices from the beginning. I also feel that as much as I and everyone else would like to believe, getting married is too easy!! It should be harder with much counseling(religious, financial, sexual, etc.)that should be required. We all I think see the true people we tend to marry..the good and the bad in them..but we think that it will go away or we can change them. I will always love my ex but I know that both of us are two different people. I am still angry but this to shall pass. I hope that this made me a wiser person. And as my mother says, why would I want someone who doesn't want me. I am too good for that.

Jayhawk..<P>HEY BUDDY! To give you a quick update, My wife and I are now separated and in the process of divorcing. I have come to an understanding that this is for the best. If I would have stayed married to my wife, I would have to be constantly dealing with her immature attitude toward marriage, and end up totally broke in the process because she has no idea of how to manage money!<P>I learned just 3 weeks ago that she still had contact with the OM despite the fact that he has a new girlfriend now!<P>I can honestly say that my wife is one of those people who will never learn to appreciate the type of person that I am. I have bent over backwards trying to do everything I could to help our marriage and she did not recognize that. I am the type of person that has never used any Love Busters in our marriage and I have been more than tolerant with her immature behavior which started 1 year after we got married..<P>I am very happy now and I am enjoying life more being away from her. I still love her, but I have a very difficult time having respect for someone who has treated me very poorly for the past 1 1/2 years.<P>I would love to hear about what is happening with you..<P>Please write back and keep us updated too!<P>Take Care....You are a great person!<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

Well - on the whole, it seems that we are reluctant to label people or their behavior as either bad or good, but we continue to try to label the marriage as bad or good. Are we merely shifting the blame here?<P>This is a rhetorical question! If anyone has any random thoughts on this, go for it!!<P>I tend to agree that, barring emotional, verbal, or physical abuse or the presence of drug/alcohol abuse or mental illness, that a marriage is only as "good" as one or both parties make it. I have also read instances of spouses having affairs for no other reason except that they wanted to, not because of any defect in their partner or marriage. To say that adultery always has an understandable, explainable reason, is to remove from the individual their responsibility for their actions. Adultery, like committment to your marriage, is a choice you make. There is not "someone out there" who is perfect for you, but you have just not found them yet - but unfortunately you are already married the wrong person. This myth, in my opinion, keeps us from truly committing to our marriages. The fantasy of the perfect person who is out there somewhere damages our marriages, because we are always on the lookout for the next "better deal" if we have this mindset.<P>Jim Smoke, in his book "Growing through Divorce" offered a very good observation: that we have let our merchandising attitudes (everything is disposable, temporary and replaceable) carry over to our people attitudes, especially about our spouses.<P>Some may think that the grass is greener on the other side, but they are not mowing it yet!!!!

Bryan--<P>Don't mean to jump here as a newbie but I have a feeling that I am on the same path as you. Wife has been diagnosed with depression, has had emotional and physical affairs with three men in the last 3 years and seems to be doing the minimum in terms of contrition and cleaning up the mess. Not sure how we can heal until she heals. Would not be such a tough call except that we have two great kids--a reality she obviously overlooked while looking for the knight in shining armor.<P>I have encouraged her, per Dr. Harley, to look at the website and fill out the various questionnaires but she feels it will only make her feels worse. It would be of great help for me to know when it finally hit you, that enough was enough. The three closest people to me, besides my wife, have all said that I should strongly consider divorcing her and trying to start over. I feel that the kids are the big losers in that scenario, not to mention the horror of dealing with her and other men that will surely come in and out of her life, as has been her m.o. since high school.<P>I've been lurking around the board for some time, trying to draw on the strength and learn from the denial that is so common.<P>Would appreciate your perspective.<P>

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>

Laura..<P>I totally agree with everything you mentioned in your last post here! The days of Me, Me, Me have got to go!<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

B4...<P>I first want to say that I am very sorry that you are having to deal with the unbelieveable pain of this situation. To be completely honest and open with you, I thank God everyday that we didn't have children to drag into the divorce. I want to commend you for being a strong and moral person for doing the best that you can for your children in your situation. <P>For the life of me, I cannot even try to understand the thought process that your wife and my wife were thinking when they decided to enter into an adulterous relationship!<BR>There is no reason for anyone to have an affair on a spouse for any reason at all. In reality, the WS is only hurting their family, spouse and even themselves with pain that lasts forever! <P>To give you a brief background on my situation, I am a BS and the discovery day was February 15, 2001. When I confronted my wife, she confessed to the affair that I discovered through email message between her and OM! <P>I have been through hell and back during recovery and after about 5 months into the recovery stage, My wife told me that she wanted a divorce and by that time, I was completely exhausted of the emotional turmoil from the discovery and her unwillingness to make things right and seek counseling to save the marriage. My wife did nothing to save our marriage, she just let me get totally exhausted before I threw in the towel.<P>I will be the first to admit that the decision to divorce would have been much more difficult with children. <P>I hope for the best for you and your children. I know that it will be very difficult for you to tell your wife that you want a divorce, but in this case, if she is still seeing this other guy even though she has children is a person that you really don't want to be around your kids. Your kids need you during this difficult time in their lives and I hope that God will give you the strength to be strong and to do the right thing for you and your kids!<P>I wish you the best<P>Please write back anytime, I would love to hear from you!<P>My email address is: rieagan@aol.com <P>take care<P>Bryan<BR><P>------------------<BR>BJK

I agree with Lady M. The myth of the "perfect person" for you is very destructive.<P>Marriages are not cars. There are not entities unto themselves. Marriages are what you make of them - as Tom Lehrer said when comparing life to a sewer, what you get out of them depends on what you put into them. <P>