Well, it looks like we are headed toward a divorce. Can you believe it? We talked about getting a divorce last night.<P>Last night we went out to dinner, alone, and we tried a new place that we really liked. After a pleasant dinner with enjoyable conversation (chit chat), he said that he did not like it when I typed on the MB forum late at night. Now, FYI, I have really limited my MB time at work so that I can concentrate on my work and so that he can kinda see what I'm writing and who I'm writing to and stuff. I also have really limited my MB emails at work for basically the same reasons. So, at home, we have DSL access and a loose "schedule": after work is time to relax and have a soda, then dinner time, then from 8-9p my daughter is allowed on the internet and 9-10p my son is on allowed he internet, and we stay in the room with them to watch them. This leaves me only from 10p or later, because I can't type at work, I can't type during dinner time, and I can't type from 8-10p. As I recall it, the exact words said were something like, "I don't like it when you type on the MB forum so lat at night." <P>At first, I did not react very smartly and I told him that I really felt as if he was trying to control me. I can't type at work, I can't type at this time or that time, and I was trying very hard to be reasonable and reassuring for him that my MB activities are basically friendship and "counseling" each other. Anyway, after a little bit (okay, I'm a tiny little bit dense), I figured out that what he was REALLY trying to say was not when I should or should not type on MB, but rather, that he was hurt because he thought I would rather type on MB than spend time with him. OKAY!! I got the message, and I told him that I would MUCH rather spend time with him, and that in fact I had been feeling very lonely and ignored lately. In my head, I even reminded myself not to turn the focus on me, but to keep the focus on letting him know that my first choice was him--but when he was unavailable or had other plans, that typing on the MB forum was a pleasant second choice for me. This is what I call a "plan b" for the evening, meaning I would PREFER to spend time doing ABC, but if ABC falls through or is cancelled or for some other reason can not occur, I have a plan b to do XYZ. <P>Anyway, I thought I did pretty well--felt a little bad that I didn't get his real message at first, but I thought I made a good recovery and I kept it focused on him and I literally bit my tongue about how I recently felt REALLY lonely, because this was "his turn". Good job!! Or so I thought. NOPE!<P>I got the Lecture #296 in the restaurant!! "You are so negative and judgemental, and you always drag up the past". You remember that lecture, right? The funny thing is, I was very, very careful NOT to bring up the past--just the way things are right now. Some terrible, horrible things were said, like "You can't give me what I need" "You make me miserable when I am with you" and well, you know, other stuff that just cut through my soul like a knife, and you know what was really funny? Throughout the whole thing, I almost felt like I was watching someone else fight--third person. Here's how I bring up the past and assume the negative, "It hurts me that you don't roll over at night and touch me and snuggle with me" "Well, I have claustrophobia and I don't FEEL like touching anything. You could have asked me, you know. You always assume the worst. What makes you think I don't want to touch you." "Well... you aren't doing it, and you did try to claim ED one time..." "There you go, dragging up the past again! Can't you ever let it go?" Okay, that was an answer to a question that did involve a past event, but I hardly dredged up the past or kept blaming him for the past or ANYTHING. So, I sort of third person watched our fight, and the funny thing was, HE looks at the negative side of almost every comment I make; he judges every move I make while simultaneously demanding freedom to do as he chooses; and he constantly dredges up the past and how bad he feels and just all of that! It was almost comical, if it weren't so tragic!! <P>What it comes down to is that I wanted AT LEAST 15 hours a week of his undivided attention; I wanted us to attend both individual and marital counseling; I wanted to attend a couples retreat weekend and/or a weekend to ourselves; I wanted to apply MB principals to our lives on a daily basis; I wanted to discover a recreational activity that we could do together; and I wanted to renew our vows--and I wanted a written down plan as to when and how we would achieve these things. He wanted to build up to 15 hours a week "someday"; he refuses individual counseling and wanted to attend marital counseling so bad that he never lifted a finger to schedule it or look anyone up or find out about them or anything; he never wanted to have a weekend to ourselves and he blames that on the fact that if he DID schedule a weekend I'd ask when we were doing our vows; he SAID he would apply MB principals to our lives, but would not discuss the LBs or the ENs or commit to 15 hours a week; he did not know what we could ever BOTH enjoy doing together; and he wanted to renew our vows so much that he never lifted a finger (again). He wanted to discuss "Rules of Fair Fighting" so I dug up all the papers I had on the topic from my anger group and printed stuff off the internet--meanwhile he did nothing--and we never talked about it. He wants me to accept him as he is--he doesn't want to have to be pressured to spend time with me or learn MB principals--and if I can't live with what he can give me without any effort to change, then I am wrecking the marriage, not him!!<P>Oh, who are we kidding? I can't give him what he needs! He is miserable when he is with me! I have bent over BACKWARDS trying to let him know what actions would show me he is serious and committed and he loves ME, and he refuses, argues, complains, and is resentful. UUGGGGHHHH!!!! Know what? If he doesn't love me and doesn't want to be with me and does not willingly want to do the things that will restore love between us, then what the hell am I doing?<BR>This kills me though. It's incomprehensible--we are going to get a divorce!! That can't be right!!<P><BR>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

((((((((((CJ))))))))))<P>I just can't think of any words to say to you right now. I am so very sorry for your pain. I know how much effort you've put into this but on a good note it's not over yet. Please try to avoid talking to him about divorce for now. Trust me it will only fuel the fire.<P>With that all being said it may be a good time to start looking around for a good lawyer. Damn that's sad.<P>------------------<BR>Love, Bill<P>-There are none so blind as those who refuse to see!-<BR>-Stand up and do the right thing, even if your standing alone.-

{{{{{{{{<B>CJ</B>}}}}}}}}}<P>I'll get back to you later... just wanted to send a hug now. I'm so sorry!<P>------------------<BR><I>As iron sharpens iron, so does one wo/man sharpen another...</I> Prov 27:17

CJ,<P>I'm sorry I have been uncharacteristicly quiet...I just haven't anything constructive to say...<P>Just know my heart aches for you and you are never far from my thoughts and in my prayers...<P>Much Love,<P>Bill

Hi FaithfulWife, it's me, Belle. Just sending a cyberhug. <P>Your H is saying one thing and doing another. He's saying he wants counseling, wants to improve the marriage, wants to stay married and learn how to argue/fight more constructively, and yet doesn't follow through on anything he says he wants. <P>There are people here who do excellent Plan A/Plan B's, who hang in and persist, and restore their marriages. I believe you are that type of person. But it doesn't sound like your husband is. He doesn't have the drive and determination to make what he says he wants to happen, happen. And it's all your fault, all of it. <P>(If you believe you have THAT much power, hon, no you don't. He's attributing such power to you. He's got the parking brake on, on a car that's parked facing uphill. You can't win against all that resistance.)<P>------------------<BR>Belle, Domestic Goddess

Faithfulwife,<P>I am so so so sorry. I know fom reading your posts that you have been trying very hard. The problem is it does not sound that your H is ready to work on your marriage - at least not now. I heard somewhere that it takes 2 people to make a marriage, but only 1 to end it. And I think that has been one of the hardest things for me to accept. I too tried very hard to save my marriage, but my H just was not interested. He just could not get over the concept "that the grass is greener on the other side". I thought that if I worked hard enough, I could do it for both of us. If I just loved him enough, and showed him with every fiber of my being, that I could change his mind. But I guess it really is true...it does take 2. And for a <B>VERY stubborn woman </B> to give up on something that has been the most important part of my life, is something that I almost can't comprehend. I keep thinking that I will wake up and everything will be back t normal.<P>But don't give up yet. As long as you are living in the same house, I think you have hope. You still have continuing and steady contact. And as long as you have that, there is still hope.<P>The big question is how much can you take emotionally. After over a year of being given no hope whatsoever; and the more I gave him his freedom, the less interest he had in me - I finally have thrown in he towel. As long as we are married, I keep having hope. But that hope is dashed day after day after day. My heart just can't take it anymore. I keep rememebering the serenity prayer about knowing what you can change and accepting what you cannot change. That is a very tough concept for me.<P>You are such a special person, and it saddens me that your H appears not to appreciate this fact. I admire that you are being forthright in your goals. The painful part is sitting back to see how the person you love reacts to those goals. I kept expecting my H to at respect the 22 years we've been married enough to at least try to save the marriage. And it hurt soo much to find that he did not have that respect.<P>You are in my heart and my prayers.<P>Lisa<P>------------------<BR>Character is determined by what you do when no one is watching.

OKAY, then I guess its up to me to ask...could he be testing the boundaries/you resolve?

CJ, the level of communication problems you are describing seems to be about on par with what my wife and I were experiencing during the last few months before she left me. My wife was so afraid of what she <I>thought</I> I <I>might</I> say that she was literally incapable of listening to anything I actually <I>did</I> say. And her sense of her own identity was so eroded that she had no idea who was doing (or feeling!) what. Sound familiar?<P>Anway, to be blunt, I suspect that if you can't get your husband into counseling, you're sunk. Despite the bizarre communication problems my wife and I were having, we actually seemed to communicate pretty well in counseling sessions. I think it is possible that my wife's meltdown might even have been prevented if we had had a more aggressive counseling schedule.<BR>

CJ,<P>I agree with GnomeDePlume - I think your number one goal - the only goal right now should be to get both of you to counseling "together". Right now I feel your husband is taking advantage of knowing what to do to get his way. He may even be taking your dedication to the marriage for granted. What he may not realize is that your dedication will someday (maybe soon) fail if his actions don't change. But at that point it might not be too late for you, it may be too late for him - for at that point you will in fact be "empty" - You will have given everything you have had to make your marriage work and you will most likely have nothing left to give.<P>I think all the lessons here at MB are great, for two people who are compelled to make their marriage work. But for some reason, you seem to be the one who is doing everything and your husband is just coasting along. A counselor will not allow that to continue - a counselor is someone outside of your marriage that you both will have to answer to (at least in the beginning). When my wife dragged me to counseling, she was expecting everything to go her way - she expected the counselor to side with her and show me how wrong I was in everything. (and to a point that is what I thought was going to happen) But when we got there, we both were in for a surprise - he was fair! Amazing, right? <P>Where she was wrong he told her, where I was wrong he told me. And the same for where we were both right. The main thing he did though was "translate" to each of us, where the other was coming from. And to a guy's guy (me!), it was an eye-opening experience. I was so sure I knew what my wife was saying in certain situations, I would believe nothing else. But when the counselor would trip me up, I was forced to begin to think in an entirely different way.<P>Yous husband sounds like he needs to be "shook-up". And honestly, you may be told things that you could be doing wrong as well (so be ready for that). But the bottom line is hopefully with a good counselor, you both will learn more about each other - things you may have never, ever known about each other before. My wife sure did about me and I know I did about her.<P>Don't wait for your husband to find a counselor - you do it! You set the appointment. If your husband refuses to go the first time, then go yourself. Then talk to your husband about it - the curiosity will drive him crazy and may be just enough to get him there for the second session.<P>CJ, before you choose divorce - before you two begin to talk about it, please, please, please go to counseling!!!! PLEASE. For all of us who still in some ways wish we were in your shoes, go to counseling....<P>May God give you both the strength to keep a hold of each other..<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited July 19, 2001).]

I just have to jump in and let you'all know that a major piece of this puzzle has been missed. We ARE going to counseling--marriage counseling. We agreed to go to counseling in February, and when nothing happened and no progress was made, in the month of June (shortly after we moved) I looked up, called and interviewed counselors and narrowed it down to a few suggestions--one of which was phone counseling with the Harleys. At that point, I don't think he understood or liked the Harleys (remember? the burning $85 incident), so we picked a lady counselor who comes to our house. Appointments are an hour, but she does stay longer if the situation warrants it, and I usually write the check to pay her. Although in my heart of hearts I think the Harleys would be more direct and do a better job, I also think that we needed someone we were BOTH comfortable with, and so we went with the local lady.<P>Anyway, we have been in counseling for a month. I know, I know, not very long. But here's the problem I am REALLY struggling with. I have made it abundantly clear what are what I call my "minimum requirements" and in February, when we reconciled, we talked about them and we agreed to them. WE!!! (BTW, just a side note, he also has a list of "minimum requirements.") Now, in June, I did a quick re-eval, and I realized to my chagrin, that literally not one of my "minimum requirements," that WE had agreed to together, had been done--NEITHER WAS THERE ANY PROGRESS TOWARD GETTING THEM DONE! So, in June I wrote a note sort of restating these "minimum requirements" and saying that I had let myself down by not standing up for myself. I realize that things don't happen overnight, but to not even see PROGRESS in six months is not overnight!! So, in my June note, I had said that I don't expect this to just magically happen, but I do expect to see steps being taken--in fact the exact words I used is that I'd like to see a plan. For example, if I saw printed out pages of inquiries about couples' weekends, or if we had brochures and we were discussing how to pay for a whole weekend away and airfare and all that, I would see that as PROGRESS even though we weren't there yet. As another example, I printed out the EN and LB questionnaires in February, and again right after we moved, and again here just a week or so ago. If the questionnaires were FILLED OUT (which they aren't) and if we had time scheduled when we were going to go over them (like one LB or one EN every third day or something), I would see that as PROGRESS even though we weren't there yet. <P>To add insult to injury, not only are we not making PROGRESS toward a better marriage, but we are slipping backwards into our old marriage!! We are returning to the old habits of being in the same house but not speaking to each other and to be honest and blunt, raging at CJ!! And yes, I have tried to be the one to speak to each other--and not deep talks because he can't take that--and just fun, interesting, enjoyable chit chat and all the rest! And yes, I have even tried to say NO to the verbal abuse. I'm talking hateful, spiteful, literally cruel stuff and he knows that he's being hateful, spiteful and cruel at the time and doesn't stop it! There are anger management classes and groups and things out there to learn how to stop, and he would rather keep hurting me! And it's not just hurting me--now the anger is coming out at the kids too! I think I could bear it if there was small progress being made and/or if I wasn't starting to get raged at again, but the two in combination are like a bomb to me! <P>I can only go so far!! I can't "make" him want to willing do my "minimum requirements", and although his mouth will sometimes SAY he's willing to do them, his ACTIONS do not follow through and in reality he does not do them. I can't "make" him want to spend time with me. I can't "make" him apply MB principals to daily life. I can't "make" him want to put in the effort for a better marriage!! Yet, I think that is exactly what I have been struggling and fighting to do--"make" him do it!! And the more I struggle and fight, the more he pulls away. <P>So, upon reviewing "Love Must Be Tough", I have reached the conclusion that if he is so miserable being with me, and I can't give him what he needs, and I am so darn negative,and so darn judgemental, and I always drag up the past, and blah blah blah, I am going to let him go. What else is there to do? <P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Hi CJ,<P>I was just getting ready to post something on how I don't understand women, and how unreasonable they can be at times. And I thought women didn't make any sense to me. Oh my gosh, it isn't only the women who don't make sense! Now what am I going to do? <P> <P>Prayers and stuff,<P>Bumper

CJ,<P>My apologies - I guess I missed the mention of your counseling somewhere along the way - oops. sorry!<P>I have two thoughts: <P>You mention that you both have "minimum requirements" and while I understand the good intentions behind them, I am not so sure that is the healthiest way to approach things. Its almost as if you both are expecting the other to live according to a laundry list of qualities (granted from how you write they are probably pretty basic like "be nice", but still you are kind of placing requirements onto what is already a very stressful situation). And you made those "lists" before you even began counseling - maybe instead of each of you having your "own" list, you sit down and build a list "together" during a counseling session...<P>Another thing that strikes me as a little odd is that the counselor is coming to "your house". I'll be honest in saying that I'm not so sure I agree with that for two reasons:<P>A long time ago I decided to get "in shape" physically. I had been slacking off, eating too much and getting no exercise. So together my wife and I went out and bought a stair master. At first it was great, but after a few months, being that it was in my house, I did not have to expend that much effort to go "exercise" - it was right there. What began to happen was that the old patterns I used to have, just reappeared. I never bothered to add a "new pattern" to my life and over time being a "creature of habit" like all human beings I went back to my comfort zone. And then to top it off, when I didn't exercise, that damn machine would sit there and "mock me". What I should have done I began doing last year - I JOINED a gym that I had to drive to. It forced me to schedule workouts into each week. I created a new pattern - I got myself out of the environment I was used to. Guess what? It has been a year and a half and I am still working out 4x per week. I created a new behavior to replace the old negative behavior.<P>Now lets put this in regards to your husband. Since he doesn't have to leave the house and really make any undo efforts to participate (since he is already home) he may not have the motivation needed to change. You on the other hand have enough motivation for 3 people , but unfortunately that does not help. By going to sessions outside the home, he will have to get out of the house which means making a real effort just to go to the session. And on a side note, I found that my wife and I actually talked more on the drives to and from the counselor than we sometimes did in our session (granted it was a 30 minute drive). I think getting out of the house will make him sacrifice a little more which might just help to motivate him more. A new behavior of going to see the counselor once a month (or week, or whatever) will appear - He will have to get dressed up (at least a little bit, right? ) and make plans for that day.<P>My second issue is that I feel the counselor is trying to treat the problems in the environment where they exist, which I don't know if that is such a good idea. By my wife and I going to a "new" environment in an office neither of us had ever really been to before, it "leveled the playing ground". At the counselor's office, we were equal. And we did not have any "triggers" that might set either one of us off. By being somewhere outside our home, we were both able to open up more. My counselor put it this way - <P>"cats don't eat and sleep in their litterbox where the *hit is, right? So the both of you shouldn't be talking about all the *hit in your marriage where you eat and sleep." <P>Meaning, our home should be our refuge and the place where we both feel the most in-touch with each other. So the last thing he wanted us to do was talk or discuss "us" in the house. In fact he used to reprimand us everytime we started a conversation with "we were at home and we began to talk about "us" and ....". He didn't want to hear anything further - He'd say only half jokingly "stop right there - you were talking where?!?!?!"<P>He told us that when we were home, we were to try not to think about the problems and the issues. Instead try to just become "OK" in each other's presence. Save all the bull*hit for when we came in to see him. He wanted us to air our dirty laundry ONLY with him. Now that I look back I see that he wanted to act as a referree, which by the way he did a very good job.<P>Looking at how our counseling went, I now understand what he was trying to do:<P>1) To make living together bearable first! Then work towards re-establishing the love.<BR>2) To remove us from our current patterns and behaviors towards each other. He actually suggested that we go away together somewhere "new" to both of us every weekend for a couple weeks/months. Didn't have to be big trips, overnight was preferable, but day trips were acceptable<BR>3) To air out our problems and issues in front of him ONLY, so that he could make sure that we both were "hearing" what each other was saying.<BR>4) To remove all the "noise" from our lives (including work) for a while until we were able to get back to "us".<BR>5) To stop putting any kind of demands on each other and to simply focus on each other. To remove as much stress as possible.<P>For us it didn't work - why? Because as hard as I wanted to try, she didn't. She never wanted to go away - I always wanted to talk about "us" at home. We never worked to "break" the old patterns and replace them with "new" ones.<P>CJ, I only write this in hopes that maybe something will strike a cord - if only one idea helps then it was worth writing. I don't want you to think I believe you have to keep pushing and trying when he won't. At the same time I try to play a little bit of devil's advocate to make sure you remember that some of you are doing may not be helping things either (I don't know if that is true or not, but it is always important to keep that in mind). I pray for you guys every day and for your husbands eyes to be opened.<P>I have heard stories of people going to counseling for years before their marriages came around. You need to decide if that is what you want - Just how much you are willing to sacrifice to save your marriage. For each of us it is a different amount and I don't think anyone can judge you saying if you tried hard enough or not - only you will know that true answer.<P>Know that I am on the side of your marriage - for the love you both once shared. Love can conquer all. Keep hope.<BR>Pray.<P>God Bless,<BR>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.<p>[This message has been edited by SoTired2000 (edited July 19, 2001).]

CJ,<P>Well, you've pretty much answered my questions about counseling. I tend to agree with you--probably the Harleys would be best, but maybe not if it means the difference between his participation or lack thereof. <B>However</B>, I still think you should talk to a Harley once or twice before you make the "D" decision. As I said in my email, like the court of last resort. Think of it as talking to a consultant <B>for you</B>, even if he won't participate.<P>It seems to me that if he is ever to be motivated, it will take one of two possible levers. One, if he really doesn't take your requirements seriously, is for you to leave or file (insert the usual caveat about a married person with children leaving without consulting an attorney about legal ramifications re custody).<P>Second, if you can get him to keep doing things together is that he may be starting to let you meet some ENs for him. We work so hard, but while our spouse is in an A or in withdrawal it has very little effect (at least as far as a visible effect). At some point the spouse becomes much more emotionally open to us and our deposits have a much more obvious effect. Even people with significant LBing problems can change if we achieve a sufficient Love Bank balance. <P>So, the second option is to try to negotiate a willingness on his part to work on his LBing and to at least spend significant time together even if not in deep talks. You might try to stay the course for another month or two to see if you detect any change (don't let him know of any time limit, just keep it to yourself).<P>It's either got to be the <B>credible</B> threat of losing you or a rising balance in his love bank. I don't see anything else which might motivate change on his part.<P>Sorry, having read your latest post, I'm somewhat more pessimistic. The verbal abuse is especially concerning. However, he was once in love with you, and I do think that having a full love bank can make an amazing difference in a person, so I'm not quite ready to say you should give up all hope.<P>Now that I look at this, I'm not sure I said anything much different than in my email. I hope that you at least know that all of us here are concerned about you.<P>Sending more cyberhugs,<P>Steve

<small>[ August 08, 2004, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: laura_lee ]</small>