I had an affair three years ago, wouldn't listen to my wife explain how badly I was hurting her and the children, how a divorce would affect all of us. I came home last year, then left after 11 months for another job, in a city near her in-laws and closer to my relatives, hoping that after school ended for the year, they'd move up and we'd keep working on healing our marriage.<BR>Well, I was wrong. My good intentions were interpreted as abandonment. She's given up on fighting for our marriage, just as I've been coming out of this stupid, selfish fog of an affair. <BR>Now I'm the one fighting for our marriage, with the same arguments and logic she had for me several years ago. She says she doesn't love me, doesn't want to be with me. She's hostile, rages at me. I do love her, always have, and there's no way I can explain to her that through the fantasy of an affair I still loved her, though I didn't want to admit it. <BR>It hurts; I know how I've made her feel and put her through. I'm experience every rotten emotion she felt when I started all of this. <BR>She knows it takes years to get over affairs. She's read "Surviving An Affair," even told me mine was "by the book," which it turned out to be. <BR>What I hear her saying is that she's not interested in me or our marriage anymore, and it hurts. But she's not said she wants a divorce, and my instinct tells me that's not what she wants. But I don't know how to proceed. I called her back tonight after a pretty toxic phone call to tell her that I would call on Tuesday, instead of daily. She wasn't upset with that. <BR>This is really distressing. I never wanted a divorce, still don't, and admit that I made a huge mistake with the affair. She's gone from being ambivalent about us to just plain hostile. We've never talked openly about the affair, and I fear the resentment, anger and lack of respect for me have affected her so deeply that that's all she sees now. Is there anything I can do? I'm afraid what might happen when/if we talk about this during counseling. I just want my life back in balance, with my kids, my wife and me happy again, living under the same roof. <BR>

Sorry about what you're going through, but you came to the right place. I think it's now your turn to Plan A as well as you can. If your W is fighting with you, that means she's in the conflict stage, which is good, not in withdrawal. Just keep meeting her needs and avoiding LBs and coming here for support. Just as it took your W a long time to give up on the marriage, it will take time to get her back.

LetSTry is right.<P>Since she is in conflict...it is a good sign that she is trying to let you see what she saw when you were in withdrawal...otherwise, she'd be in withdrawal, too. Read up in that...<P><A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3000_intro.html" TARGET=_blank>Start here...read it all!</A><P>Realizing where she is has a good side, and a bad one. Just make sure that you understand the difference. -Mike

I'm trying to meet her needs. The only benefit to the affair was that I was able to identify what my problems were: sarcastic, disrespectful remarks, selfish demands, then dishonesty. In addition to that, we realized that each of us dealt with conflict by avoiding it.<BR>We once talked about LBs and meeting her emotional needs. She compared it to a sieve with huge holes in it; everything I am doing goes through the holes no matter how much I try. Some days I think I should give up, but I think about how much I want my kids to have a good life with loving parents, and show them that adults can resolve their differences and negotiate for a fair resolution of conflict.<BR>I feel so overwhelmed, and at a disadvantage (feels like) because she knows how marriage builders works and easily could sabotage every plan A or B I make. I feel like I'm sliding down a hill and can't do anything to stop. And she's a few feet away and watching.

Here is an interesting bit of information that you may not be aware of:<BR> The only way that Plan A/B can fail is if you do not do them properly. She has no control over them ultimately, appearances to the contrary notwithstanding.<P>Shhhhhh! Don't tell her...its a secret! -Mike

Be patient. Show her you have changed, give that time to sink in. It may take months to prove it to her. It is very hard to get over the hurt, it is even harder to forgive all parties involved. But it is possible. Has your W seen a counselor? Have you? <P>I know it is hard, when she is far away. Do everything in your power to be consistant and work on YOU. If you work on becoming a better person, it will show and she may see it. <P>Michelle

We've both been to counseling. She'd been going alone to work on herself. Last week I suggested Marriage Builders counseling, because it seemed we were talking in circles, not really going anywhere at all. <BR>I've done the questionnaires on emotional needs and love busters, and she's got them but I don't know whether she's done them or not. I'm afraid that in her state of mind, she'll say she can't do them because she has no emotional needs from me, therefore why bother. <BR>I've discovered a lot about myself since the affair; that's the only benefit from it. I realized I was doing things for the OW that I should have done for my wife, that I needed to be more respectful of her opinions and thoughts, that I needed - and want - to be an active participant in our marriage, as a husband and a father. <BR>The frustration is not being able to demonstrate those changes from 800 miles away. She wants to feel safe and secure in our marriage. She fears I'll leave again (only if I'm hit by a bus) and hurt her and the kids all over again. I won't, and I don't want to be with anyone else, but I'm having a hard time getting that across to her.<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by boheme13:<BR><B>We once talked about LBs and meeting her emotional needs. She compared it to a sieve with huge holes in it; everything I am doing goes through the holes no matter how much I try. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Let her think about it that way. You should think about it as a sinkhole. <P>A sinkhole forms when a section of earth falls into an underlying water-filled cave. On the floor of the cave, it becomes a conical pile of debris. If the cave floor is far below, you can pour an awful lot of dirt, concrete, etc. into the hole without seeing much result. But down below, that cone is slowly getting bigger. At some point, the cone will meet the rim of the bottom of the sinkhole. At that point, you'd be surprised how quickly the fill material will finish filling the hole. And that's one place you won't see a sinkhole form again. <P>Good luck. <P>P.S. - Have you thought about pairs.com, retrouvaille.org, or gottman.com? ... the Harleys also do some couples seminars. <p>[This message has been edited by Sisyphus (edited July 23, 2001).]

Nice analogy, Sisyphus....and I told you before to just leave that bloody rock at the bottom of the hill, man! <BR>(Sorry, I have to use that year of Ancient History for something!)....Yes, and the Gottman book should stop that table leg from wobbling, too!<P>Seriously, boheme13...those sites are good resources, too...also, you might try <A HREF="http://www.weiner-davis.com" TARGET=_blank>Michelle Weiner-Davis' Divorce Busters</A>, she has developed a pretty radical system, which is solution-oriented brief therapy based.<P>Also, John Gottman's 'The 7 Principles For Making Marriage Work' is an excellent book. -Mike

boheme13,<P>Wow, are you my husband? Okay, I know you're not, but you sound very similar to him, and so, I am going to give you a bit of a present. I am going to try to explain this to you from your wife's point of view, and I'd like you to either print this or read it to her and ask her if this is how she feels.<P>My H had an A a year and a half ago, after years of having like emotional affairs. When he left me and the kids, and did not care one hoot what happened to us, it was like a tidal wave hit me, and I will never, ever be the same even if we reconcile and don't divorce. See, I used to think that I was special to him--like "he may flirt with those other women, but he chose to marry me" and "he may play with them a bit for an ego boost, but he LOVES me" and now I don't feel that way anymore. I used to think that I was his one and only special one--his wife. I used to think that our marriage was unique and stronger and better than other marriages. I used to think that sure we would fight and disagree, but he would never give up, because we vowed to be together forever, and I felt secure. These are the naive illusions that I believed about marriage in general and my marriage specifically, and now, no matter what he ever would do, I will never believe those myths again--partly because they are myths and partly because I now know that, in reality, he could leave at any time.<P>However, the problem is, knowing that those ideals are just basically fairytales is REALLY painful. I mean, like you can not imagine the pain, painful. It's kind of like a funeral, because believe it or not, there has been a death; and just like when there is a physical death, you have to go through the grieving process. I bet, in some degree, your wife is GRIEVING that her special marriage is gone, and her illusions are gone, and it will never be a fairytale again. Right?<P>Like you, just when I needed him to sort of be around and make amends, for no other reason than because I NEEDED IT, he chose to run off and abandon the kids and me for the holidays. It was like the final stab wound in a ripped apart heart, and now somehow I'm supposed to give him back the heart that HE ripped to shreads. YIKES!! No way!! There's not one ounce of me that wants a divorce, but there sure is a big part of me that can't stand to be hurt anymore. A BIG part!! And I bet your wife has a big part of her that has been so hurt and so neglected and so devastated that she just can not stand to be hurt anymore--so to prevent it, she either hurts you first (is hostile) or just checks out (is ambivalent). Do you get the big message here? She can not handle being hurt, disappointed or betrayed anymore--she has gone beyond her limit.<P>Do you want to know why she has gone into anger and has built up a huge mountain of resentment? Because you didn't talk to her about the affair, for starters. It is hard for you, I know. You don't WANT to relive it or feel cruddy about what you did or be reminded about the way you acted, but for her, it is a continuous wedge between you. She will never know if she did something wrong, or could have done something to prevent it, or wasn't fun enough or pretty enough or sexy enough. You may save YOUR embarrassment and your self-image, but continuing to "pretend it didn't happen" is killing her. No, I mean it. For the rest of her life she may wonder if you EVER really loved her, or was it just a convenient way to get someone to take care of you--and she will never know, because she can't ask. I will bet you MONEY that there are things about the affair that she desperately needed to know, but in order to save your self respect, you hurt her. To this day, she probably still wonders if you think about the OW, wonder what happened to the OW, even maybe fantasize about the OW during sex. See, women think like that--we have affairs because we want an emotional connection with someone--affection and attention--so we can't imagine having an affair for just an ego boost and sex. There must have been something about this OW that you were willing to give up everything you worked for, your family and your wife just so you could be with her. So what was it? That question can PLAGUE a woman.<P>Last but not least, I want to address this idea of a sieve, because I have used the exact same example with my husband. See, right now all the hurts and pain and sorrow and grief and abandonment and insecurity are each a gigantic hole--so you can pour all the emotional needs in there that you want, but the pour right out again, because the holes aren't plugged! Do you want to make massive deposits in her love bank? THEN PLUG THE HOLES!!! I can not speak specifically for your wife (I'm sure she has her own ideas about what would plug her holes), but here are some things that would plug my holes: stop hurting me so that he feels better; let me feel extreme sadness and anger and resentment at times, because I was wronged; respond gently and safely EVERY TIME, and when I fuss a bit, be soft and understanding; give up for me what I had to lose because of you; every single time there might be the option of picking me or something/someone else PICK ME; tell me out loud how wonderful and fun and interesting and desireable I am, because you told me out loud how b*tchy and awful and boring and ugly I am; tell me again and again and again until I believe you!; DON'T BE SELFISH--consider what you're doing to me. <P>Okay. Sorry about that, but I think you get the drift. Now is the time for you to put your own fears and worries and "fairness" aside and do what you've got to do to help her. Plug those holes. When she talks to you resentfully and angrily, just keep the focus on "what can I do to make it better FOR HER?" Talk to her about your affair, and let her ask you ANYTHING, and be brave enough and man enough to answer honestly but kindly. Let her feel sad, hurt, angry or bummed out about the affair and leaving her, and stop ignoring it. Tell her over and over and over and over and over and over what a wonderful, fun, interesting, smart, fabulous woman she is (even when she's being fussy and hostile). Tell her until she believes you--not just when she's behaving right. She's testing you!! And any time there's even the remotest possibility of picking her or something/someone else, PICK HER!! <P>Gosh, I hope this helps you. I know I really laid it all out there for you and didn't pull any punches, but it's time to separate the men from the boys here. I bet this is not at all what you wanted to hear, but just remember, I'm telling it to you like it is, so you can see it from your wife's point of view for a change of pace. Yucky, huh? The wierd thing is, I bet your wife does not have one bone in her body that wants a divorce. I bet she DESPERATELY wishes you would be her hero and help her out. Now, don't let her down, okay?<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

Good post, CJ. I posted something very, very similar yesterday, but it went somewhere out into cyberspace....<P>One other thing I wanted to say...along the lines of being brutally honest....is that not only did her hopes, dreams and thoughts about a beautiful, innocent, fantastic marriage die, SHE WAS REJECTED! SHE WAS ABANDONED! <P>It's one thing for marital problems to kill a relationship. It's a whole-nuther-ball-o-wax to be rejected on top of that. Many, many times they go hand in hand, but they really must be dealt with as two issues. <P>Even to this day, almost 2 years after d-day (H still living with OW), I still have many days when I feel like a worthless piece of sh*t...old, worthless, useless, fat, weird, boring, b*tchy, etc. All the things he said.....and didn't say. <P>The rejection/abandonment itself takes a HUGE toll on a person's self-esteem. I had a pretty good self-esteem before all this. Now I don't really know WHAT I have anymore. I'm still sorting out the truth from the non-truth...about the marriage...and about what he said/felt about me.<P>Just one more thing to throw in the mix. Men...you just gotta realize that women NEED to have that emotional bond...that feeling of being "the choosen one"....the one and only for your heart. And like CJ said, you gotta tell her, tell her, tell her, and for a loooooong time to come. Don't fake it....just be real and speak it into being.<P>Good luck and keep the faith!<BR>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P>PS....see related topic.... <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/003684.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/003684.html</A> <P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Mrs.O (edited July 24, 2001).]

boheme13,<P>Your current situation was caused by the actions you took 3 years ago - having an affair. Sounds like your W worked hard during that time to try to get you to want to restore the marriage. She got tired and got ambivalent. Now, all of the anger she has felt is starting to come out. It is your turn to be patient. It took 3 years to get to this current mess and the "fix" for it isn't going to be easy.<P>Sounds like you have read the material and you have gotten some great advice in the posts above. Again, you are going to need a whole lot of patience and to give your W a whole lot of love to restore your marriage.<P>Work Plan A and give your W the amount of time she needs to get over this. I am glad you have gotten out of the fog, but remember - it took you 3 years! Be patient and Plan A!<P>Good luck, Desiree <P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

CJ and others:<P>Thanks for the perspective; that's what I was looking for. I'm working on moving back to Florida, giving up my career to be around my kids and my wife. It's about time.<P>It's hard to talk with my wife right now because of the anger and resentment. Last night, she said didn't see the need in doing the EN questionnaire because every answer was a 0 (neither like nor dislike) -- basically saying she doesn't need anything from me. She later said she thought the marriage was pointless, her word; I got defensive and reminded her about the effects on the kids, finances, etc., and said that despite a divorce, the problems don't go away.<P>But in listening to her, reading between the lines so to speak, I don't hear her wanting a divorce. She came to visit in May for a wedding and she and the kids spent the rest of the week with me. We had a whole day to ourselves even. We made love twice. She cried when she left, said she missed me later, even called later after that to say she was horny and wanted me there NOW. I know her well enought to know she wouldn't consider making love unless there was emotion attached to it, yet she says it was "just sex."<P>I'm really frightened. I try to tell her how much she means to me and why. I only get silence. I want to talk with her about the affair but I'm afraid that bringing it up now will explode on me and result in a divorce. I can feel/sense the emotional walls she's built, and they're big thick ones. I'm trying to be patient, yet I'm trying to get back there as soon as I can. <P>Another potential problem: I don't know whether I'll be able to afford to live outside our home in Florida. And I know right now, she doesn't want me there.

I forgot to add a couple of things.<P>She says that for half our marriage, 6 years, she's been unhappy. That comes before the A. <P>In talking with her about givers and takers, she stopped me and said, basically, that she's neither a giver nor taker, since she doesn't want either right now. Devastating.<P>When we were talking, briefly, about our EN questionnaires, she asked me whether I really wanted to hear what she'd written. She said she didn't want to hurt me. At the same time she says the relationship is pointless. When I tell her I love her, she replies with an OK or uh-huh or something like that; if it was pointless, I would think she'd have said nothing or angrily told me never to tell her that again. Confused. <P>She forgot to complete the ranking of EN on the questionnaire. When I asked her to complete it and fax it to Steve Harley, she agreed to.

boheme13,<P>May I cut to the chase? You missed the point. You do not need to meet her emotional needs right now. What you DO have to do is stop love busting. Remember what I said? PLUG THOSE HOLES! <P>I don't mean to be mean, but if you tried to meet her ENs right now, today, they would pour right through the sieve and go out the other end, and all of your effort would be in vain. Let me tell you a very personal story. My top four ENs are Admiration, Affection, Conversation, and Openness/Honesty. However, my most painful LB right now is Angry Outbursts coupled with Dishonesty. OUCH! In layman's terms, this means that my H could give me flowers, send me cards, and hold my hand all he can (Affection), but when he screams at me and says such mean, hurtful things, it all flies out the window. BUT not to him!! He can't understand why he doesn't "get credit" for the flowers and cards and holding hands. Sound familiar? <P>TRUST ME!! My God, boheme13, if you have ever listened to anyone, listen to me now. Stop whatever the love busting is that is killing her. Plug the holes in the sieve by stopping the actions that are tearing her heart apart. This is going to be hard, and it's going to require some BIG kahoonas (steel ones, really), but here's what you need to do. Tell her you suddenly understand that you hurt her terribly and you have unknowingly been continuing to do it. Tell her that now you get it--she wants you to stop hurting her!! Say that you want to discuss the love busters and stop them. (Here's where the kahoonas kick in) Then let her tell you what you are doing that hurts her, and DO NOT (I repeat DO NOT) do anything other than validate what she says. DO NOT explain your side. DO NOT get defensive. DO NOT point out incorrect "facts". DO NOT straighten out her story/version. DO NOT speak in any tone of voice other than low, soft and gentle. If you can not think of a nice, decent validating thing to say, because you think she is 100% wrong and nutty as a fruitcake, say, "Thank you for opening up and being willing to share that with me. I will consider what you've said." See? That doesn't admit she was right, and it doesn't admit you were wrong--but it does tell her that you are thankful that she was willing to take the risk of openning up to you. <P>boheme13, are you getting this? You can do this, but it will take a LOT of courage, and you may literally have to bite your tongue. BITE YOUR TONGUE. Which is more important to you? Correcting the facts of her story, defending yourself, or being married to a woman who loves you and can share her heart with you?<P>Do you remember when she asked you if you really wanted to hear what she wrote and she didn't want to hurt you? SHE WAS TESTING YOU!! She was checking to see if you are willing to take it like a man!! And she was checking to see if you were serious or just wanted to hear what sounded "right" to you. And she was checking to see if you would be calm, civil and safe. Trust me--there's a part of her that DESPERATELY wants to tell you what she needs, and what you do that hurts her; but every time she has brought it up before, your response has been to defend yourself. <P>You've read my posts, boheme13. You know that it is not going well with me, right? Well, if my H had openned himself up like this and let me pour out my heart to him and NOT screamed and yelled and belittled me over every little point, I can't tell you the difference it would have made. Instead, he chose another woman over me, he totally devastated my world in a million ways he will never understand, he hurt me to make himself feel better (get his ENs met), and then he didn't understand that I needed him to let me scream out in my pain to help ME feel better. It sucks!! I want so much for him to LET me feel the way I feel over what he did to me, and he won't. I want so much for him to STOP continuing to hurt me. Screw the flowers, cards, and holding hands--stop hurting me!!<P>Well, good luck, boheme13! You'll be in my thoughts and prayers, and I hope it turns out better for you.<P>CJ<P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

CJ,<P>Thanks for the posts. I can't begin to express the level of fear/anxiety I feel in approaching her about the A and the resentment/hurt from my leaving. I've been told I need to think less with my head and more with my heart right now. I need to hear from her about the hurt and anger. And it's a little like poking a stick at a bear. <P>I will ask her again about the EN questionnaire and the LBs; hopefully she'll see that as an opportunity to tell me what she needs, what hurts her and what I continue to do to hurt her. <P>I talk with her and the kids every night, but it's only to check in on their day, see how everyone's doing. We only have two days a week to really TALK, and they've just passed. I'll see if there's some time to talk with her over the weekend, otherwise it won't be until midweek. I'm printing this file and will re-read it tonight and every other night. <P>I can't tell you how grateful I am to hear from wives; I appreciate your comments, opinions, suggestions, advice, raps on the head. I'll keep posting to let you know how it turns out. <BR>

An update:<P>I went to visit my family for 10 days in August. At the outset, my wife said she wanted me to sleep on the sofabed; she said she had no interest in being near me or with me.<P>It was as tense as I can ever recall it being with her. I let her do what she wanted, get some exercise, have the house to herself, time alone while I was there, and I enjoyed being with our 2 kids. But she didn't want to meet for lunch (she works), didn't want to participate in anything with me. <P>She was generally cold to me, walked around with this grim, unhappy look on her face when she was around me. About 2-3 days before I left, I could tell she wanted to tell me something. But as much as I wanted to ask her what she had to say, I didn't want to bring it up. So, on the last day, as I'm packing my bags and getting ready to leave, she comes back to the house (she'd already left to go to work) and tells me she wants a divorce. <P>I told her I didn't want one. I mentioned to her all of the arguments against divorce that she'd used on me while I was having the affair. She said this was the consequence for what has happened (can't there be another consequence?) To the best of my recollection, she said she was tired of the pain, the emotional drain and the stress it was putting on the kids when I had to leave. But how does a divorce alleviate any of that, and how does continuing to create situations for our kids in which I LEAVE make them feel any better? <P>She hasn't done anything divorce-wise that I know of. I haven't been served yet. But she's icy and angry sounding on the phone. <P>I don't want a divorce. I don't want to lose my family. I don't want another marriage, another partner, another anything involving another person. Is there anyone who's gone from one spouse wanting a divorce and not loving their spouse to getting back together again? What does it take? Is there anyone out there who can help?

Boheme13, <P>Take a breath! A long, slow, deep relaxing breath, RIGHT NOW!! Heehee. Okay, take a couple. <P>Are you done breathing now? I will try to help you, but I am at work right now and can't type a big long message. Will you try to hold on until later tonight? <P>I have a question for you to contemplate. Did you ever let her talk to you about the affair? Have you ever let her let her hurt out? OR is it still inside of her, festering and infecting her spirit and her love for you? Have you ever let he tell you what you are doing to hurt her? Please re-read my previous posts, because they are still so true today. <P>I have some encouraging news for you (sort of), and I'll tell you all about it tonight. Hang in there for just a couple of hours, okay?<P>CJ<P><P>------------------<BR>Judge your success by what you had to give up in order to get it.

i am so sorry for your pain... i understand the whole thing... i have been on an emotional roller coaster with my stbx for 3 years now... in and out, up and down... he filed and told me he hated me... in fact he said he was sick of me and my os...<P>our divorce will be final anyday now and i beleive he regrets it... we both have allowed om/ow into this web we have been weaving and there are a lot of hurt feelings and numerous toxic conversations...<P>i pretty much agree with cj though... communication is very healing and so is repentance... express your remorse to her if you have not already done so... i will be praying for you and your family... you should also,(just a suggestion)!!!<P>stay here and get support and advise... it has really helped me... so many great people who genuinly care...<P>keep your head up...<P>kim...

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FaithfulWife:<P>I have a question for you to contemplate. Did you ever let her talk to you about the affair? Have you ever let her let her hurt out? OR is it still inside of her, festering and infecting her spirit and her love for you? Have you ever let he tell you what you are doing to hurt her? Please re-read my previous posts, because they are still so true today. <P>I have some encouraging news for you (sort of), and I'll tell you all about it tonight. Hang in there for just a couple of hours, okay?<P>CJ<P>[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I brought with me on my recent visit this post, especially your first reply, and let her read it. After reading it, she said, "What do you want me to say?" I mentioned that we'd never discussed what happened, offered her an opportunity to talk, but she didn't. <P>Last night, she calls me to ask me to send her employment info (salary, etc.) for the lawyers. <P>FAITHFUL WIFE, hope you have time to write a reply tonight. I'm trying to breath, relax, pray, but it feels like my heart's being ground to dust.<P>